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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:I want to see wild insects on there, but I suppose that undercuts the message of "wow that's not a lot of wild animals" by replacing it with "wow the planet is made of insects" Well you could just fix that by adding a time dimension...
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Nov 13, 2021 07:56
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we can change the balance. just get consensus on one animal that everyone thinks is really cool then convince rich people to breed and keep a whole bunch of them. like, the makeup could be 12% sugar glider if we all work really hard
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Nov 13, 2021 08:11
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The Voice of Labor posted:we can change the balance. just get consensus on one animal that everyone thinks is really cool then convince rich people to breed and keep a whole bunch of them. like, the makeup could be 12% sugar glider if we all work really hard alas, the siren's lure of attribution of global outcomes to individual responsibility strikes again
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Nov 13, 2021 08:24
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:I want to see wild insects on there, but I suppose that undercuts the message of "wow that's not a lot of wild animals" by replacing it with "wow the planet is made of insects"  From https://www.pnas.org/content/115/25/6506/tab-figures-data It shows present day data. Pre-industrial would mostly swap the humans + livestock with wild mammals.
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Nov 13, 2021 08:24
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Unless posted:but see, like, fissile material hitting the atmosphere does that. anything with a half life of billions of years is mostly harmless from a radiation standpoint, the danger from those isotopes is from heavy metal toxicity. and they're a drop in the bucket compared to lead, arsenic, cadmium, mercury, chromium, etc that we've spread all over the planet. radioactive danger is inversely correlated with half life because the energy is released faster, and one human is only going to be around to experience a relatively tiny number of decay events. shorter half life elements and isotopes are much more dangerous because they release their energy at a scale that matters for individuals, and are lighter than uranium or plutonium. but that shorter half life means they're gone faster. the poo poo ain't good for you, but if it's around for 4.5 billion years, it's not a magic sterilizing field for that whole time. there's only a limited amount of potential energy in mass (you should know this formula), and an organism needs to absorb above a certain amount before it has a chance of shortened lifespan due to cancer, or get absolutely blasted by energy and melted quickly. and there's not a lot of animals that give a poo poo about increased cancer rates after 40 years of exposure. the world we're leaving behind is not going to be a place for long lived large animals in the next 10,000 years. by the time it's cool and stable enough for them in millions of years, radiation danger would be in localized areas of high concentrations of radioactive materials. to translate it to chemical energy release, iron rusting into iron oxide and thermite burning iron oxide and aluminum each release roughly the same amount of energy. but we don't worry about rust as a fire hazard because the energy is released over months or years, instead of a few seconds. we're covering the planet in sites that will cause mysterious sicknesses, some of them will decay, some of them won't. but full scale nuclear war is the only way nuclear material can possibly come close to the planet wide devastation fossil fuels have caused.
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Nov 13, 2021 08:26
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Chamale posted:Denmark has a bulldozer that drives up and down a beach twice a week, picking up all the plastic, then it wades into the ocean and dumps all of the plastic a few metres from the shore. $150,000 a year for this. Hi I'm homo sapiens and I have less understanding of how tides work than a loving crab crabitalism.png
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Nov 13, 2021 13:21
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Chamale posted:Denmark has a bulldozer that drives up and down a beach twice a week, picking up all the plastic, then it wades into the ocean and dumps all of the plastic a few metres from the shore. $150,000 a year for this. 
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Nov 13, 2021 13:38
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Cup Runneth Over posted:alas, the siren's lure of attribution of global outcomes to individual responsibility strikes again individual responsibility actually applies when your talking about the 500 billionaires who rule the world
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Nov 13, 2021 14:02
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Complications posted:It sounds like your kid has a lot of cracks to ping about authority and capitalism in general and if they're the bookworm type I was my advice would be to introduce them to some history books outside of what's taught in school and see if they're interested. The sort of things that introductory courses to history in college teach to start depropagandizing people. Talk about the lessons that history's taught vs what's happening today. Cognitive dissonence should start the dominos tumbling from there. This is great advice btw thanks. History is full of examples of societal collapse following ecological crisis or otherwise, which at the very least might help put our current misadventures into a broader context. Have also already found in necessary to push back against the standard school history curriculum as well, esp wrt the colonization of North America as it's introduced to younger children. That itself caused a minor crack ping, learning that a) the Natives are still around b) are generally not happy with the current state of affairs and c) generally opposed the American Revolution. Kind of ruins the narrative about the just revolutionary war for freedom when the rightful owners of the land you stole aren't even fully on board. Trabisnikof posted:What's the value in telling them that we'll never have stop using fossil fuels for power generation? Phasing out fossil fuel electricity generation can definitely happen, for example I grew up in Ontario where the power mix is already predominantly nuclear+hydro (for now). This is not as reassuring as you'd think, the idea that most of North America is 20-30 years behind that concrete Ford-electing wasteland in terms of electricity generation infrastructure.
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Nov 13, 2021 14:10
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COP26 summaryquote:The latest draft, which is broadly similar to one released on Friday, calls on nations to return next year with stronger pledges to cut planet-warming emissions in this decade. Recognizing that countries are not doing enough to prevent a significant rise in temperatures, it urges wealthy nations to “at least double” by 2025 the financial aid that they provide to developing countries to help adapt to heat waves, floods, droughts and wildfires. It appears that even this pathetic promise memo will not be agreed upon, so the summit was slightly more worthless than Paris
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Nov 13, 2021 16:25
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Pryor on Fire posted:COP26 summary all those private jets and rich people dinners were worth it. mission accomplished
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Nov 13, 2021 16:37
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Unless posted:today’s mail call was worth okay i finished this and while it's definitely enjoyable to read and makes a lot of salient points i disagree with his ultimate conclusion. after going through a lot of media and pointing out how the anxiety can be read as climate anxiety he says that using this means of interpretation widely will raise awareness and help fight climate change and... i mean, it won't? otherwise all those books that Obama claimed to read might have pushed him to the left. it's not like our ruling class gets a drastically different culture than we do, they just don't engage with it by seeing it as their responsibility to direct that change. i guess a mass awakening is possible but i don't see it coming through critical interpretation of the fast and the furious movies. i dunno, if i was a marine biologist trapped on a crashing spaceship i would want to believe that marine biology could solve that problem but it seems like fighting with the tools we have just isn't working and that new tools need to be used to meaningfully create change
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Nov 13, 2021 16:58
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at least in the feudal age when you were getting murdered by the upper classes they had the kindness to send physical agents you could maybe attack but now it's just a heatwave you get poached alive in. There is no fighting back
Jokerpilled Drudge has issued a correction as of 18:03 on Nov 13, 2021 |
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Nov 13, 2021 17:37
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i hear things are going well
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Nov 13, 2021 18:25
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Rutibex posted:all those private jets and rich people dinners were worth it. mission accomplished The carbon footprint of the COP26 climate summit is expected to be double that of the previous conference in 2019, a report for the British government found 
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Nov 13, 2021 19:11
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Rime posted:The carbon footprint of the COP26 climate summit is expected to be double that of the previous conference in 2019, a report for the British government found 
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Nov 13, 2021 19:16
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Nocturtle posted:This is great advice btw thanks. History is full of examples of societal collapse following ecological crisis or otherwise, which at the very least might help put our current misadventures into a broader context. That’s why I brought up racism, as another problem space where you probably have already had to explain that yes, while being not racist is theoretically easy, our society and powers structures is such that it’s a really intractable problem. As far as making sure they don’t get their hopes up in the near term, I feel like the news does a good enough job of tamping down expectations.
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Nov 13, 2021 19:17
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Complications posted:Cognitive dissonence should start the dominos tumbling from there. break your child's small brain by having them read books about humanity's past
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Nov 13, 2021 19:21
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TACD posted:lol how did they even manage that? did twice as many people attend probably the ortolan they had flown in for all attendees
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Nov 13, 2021 19:35
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Hubbert posted:break your child's small brain by having them read books about humanity's past Long run, yeah. The bookworm kid will slowly break their own brain looking at ignored history and nominal civic ideals versus what's really happening. It worked wonders for me!
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Nov 13, 2021 19:44
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i hope next summit they fly in a bunch of elephants and rhinos and other large animals and then shoot them and let them bleed to death while they make the most horrifying cacophony imaginable to show just how terrible it is when those poor animals die and try to thug at the hearts of the attendees oh who the gently caress am i kidding, half of the people there would probably get a hardon from that
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Nov 13, 2021 20:34
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mild effortpost Prior discussion about sci-fi's contemplation of doom gave me a mild  about some childhood booksThe Triopods was a YA sci-fi series by a guy named John Christopher. Without knowing much else about it, I picked up his first book, The Death of Grass in 2014. It's an environmental disaster book, and I and a coworker I foisted it on both found it pretty  in terms of how unflinching it is and how quickly everything disintegrates. Without giving a spoiler of more than the basic setup, many staple foods vanish because of a blight and the world does not take it seriously until it's way too late and the UK decides to respond by locking down most urban areas and then nuking them, in an effort to preserve the much more limited rural population in what will be an almost impossible to feed world. The book opens on this note and it mostly goes downhill from there.What hit me in a flash today is that in the Tripods books, mankind has been taken over by aliens who build their own weird cities which are incompatible with our atmosphere, but otherwise control the population by fitting them with permanent hats that prevent certain kinds of thinking, and allow people to live in small towns in the woods outside the remains of the empty bombed out cities in a basically 1800s agrarian lifestyle, in sufficient population to feed the workforce necessary to maintain their cities, which have sulfuric gas or something dominantly and cause the human workers to die pretty quick. Seems to me the lifestyle portrayed is pretty utopian, though. I mean, aside from the giant aliens literally thought policing you and periodically demanding tribute slaves to come work in their cities. A farming society with a deep deep pathological distrust of anything electricity related, and some kinds of artificial or environmental constraints imposed on population. The tripods books are good YA fodder, but The Death of Grass is a strong rec for this thread; it's decades old, it's not concerned with the specifics of co2 change, it's very dark and some things about it pass the sniff test of human behavior for me, and it's readable in an afternoon pretty easily. Cabbages and VHS has issued a correction as of 21:15 on Nov 13, 2021 |
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Nov 13, 2021 21:10
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TACD posted:lol how did they even manage that? did twice as many people attend Everyone is taking climate seriously now! So the fossil fuel industry sent hundreds of lobbyists to both the pre-parties in Milan and the parties in Glasgow where desperate representatives of poor nations that are being destroyed showed up en masse to try and desperately demand action and resources to all of the rich nations showing up en masse to pretend they give a poo poo and give speeches at THE MOST IMPORTANT CLIMATE CONFERENCE EVER. Due to the fact this was all literally loving worthless there is no carbon reduction to be had for the multi-week worldwide showboating and partying thousands of people were doing to keep the fantasy of 1.5c alive so it's all emissions baby.
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Nov 13, 2021 21:11
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Cabbages and Kings posted:many staple foods vanish because of a blight and the world does not take it seriously until it's way too late and the UK decides to respond by locking down most urban areas and then nuking them, in an effort to preserve the much more limited rural population in what will be an almost impossible to feed world. The book opens on this note and it mostly goes downhill from there. drat, thats metal
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Nov 13, 2021 21:16
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Cabbages and Kings posted:many staple foods vanish because of a blight and the world does not take it seriously until it's way too late and the UK decides to respond by locking down most urban areas and then nuking them, in an effort to preserve the much more limited rural population in what will be an almost impossible to feed world. The book opens on this note and it mostly goes downhill from there. brexit going well i see
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Nov 13, 2021 21:34
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Rutibex posted:individual responsibility actually applies when your talking about the 500 billionaires who rule the world "we" does not refer to the 500 billionaires who rule the world unless... theres something youd like to get off your chest?
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Nov 13, 2021 22:28
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guys this pedantic infighting is not getting us any closer to achieving 12% sugar glider biomass also looking at the sportsman's warehouse flier, I'd forgotten that there are so few dear left that setting up a deer surveillance network of trail cams has been normalized as a way to bag the few remaining deer
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Nov 13, 2021 22:45
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Cabbages and Kings posted:mild effortpost I've mentioned this book a couple of times over the various threads through the years, OP, but under the older title No Blade Of Grass. It's definitely up there with Earth Abides as one of the all-time greats of ecological apocalypse fiction. I'd give NBoG a higher rating these days as being the more realistic portrayal of how rapidly things will fall apart and how humans will act towards each other as soon as the food supply chain collapses. lovely thing is they were both written so early on in modern industrial civilization that niether author ever imagined we'd do so much permanent damage to the biosphere or grossly exceed our carrying capacity to this extent (Earth Abides directly draws parallels to the die-off cycles of mclears rats and human overpopulation.) , so they're both still couched in the idea that there would be an ecosystem which the survivors could possibly return to - which isn't poisoned by a millieu of invisible forever toxins. My stark and grim prognostications on how civilization is going to play out over the next few decades were definitely strongly influenced by encountering both No Blade of Grass and Threads fairly young. I wonder why British apocalypse fiction is decidedly less utopian in outcome than American. 
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Nov 13, 2021 23:06
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Jokerpilled Drudge posted:at least in the feudal age when you were getting murdered by the upper classes they had the kindness to send physical agents you could maybe attack but now it's just a heatwave you get poached alive in. There is no fighting back Genocide on the cheap and with plausible deniability is why nothing has or will be done about global warming
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Nov 13, 2021 23:28
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Rime posted:My stark and grim prognostications on how civilization is going to play out over the next few decades were definitely strongly influenced by encountering both No Blade of Grass and Threads fairly young. I wonder why British apocalypse fiction is decidedly less utopian in outcome than American. The Brits know viscerally that their islands are a zero sum thunderdome in waiting. America's coming off of a couple centuries of telling people to just go west and take themselves some of the infinity of 'unsettled' land and more lately decades of propaganda about how environmentally conscious we already are and how great the definitely excessively and even wastefully huge reserves of nature that ought to be sold off are doing.
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Nov 13, 2021 23:28
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Speaking of fiction I watched These Final Hours on the recommendation of this thread and boy, it is incredibly This Thread
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Nov 13, 2021 23:34
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Cabbages and Kings posted:The Triopods was a YA sci-fi series by a guy named John Christopher. Without knowing much else about it, I picked up his first book, The Death of Grass in 2014. It's an environmental disaster book, and I and a coworker I foisted it on both found it pretty Publication date: 1956 lol we've been hosed for so, so long, and we've known it, but no one has wanted to admit it
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Nov 14, 2021 05:32
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SKULL.GIF posted:Publication date: 1956 It's a problem at a scale that we are fundamentally not evolved as a species to understand or resolve. Humans are fantastically intelligent, and really really good at modifying their environment to extract maximum value from it... but not at sustainably stewarding it. Our brains are still too close to Homo erectus, wired for hunting and gathering, not global civilization. If the curve of technological innovation were a little flatter, maybe we would have had a chance... but exponential growth is a bitch. Once again, the Great Filter is capitalism.
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Nov 14, 2021 06:17
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Cabbages and Kings posted:Without giving a spoiler of more than the basic setup, many staple foods vanish because of a blight and the world does not take it seriously until it's way too late and the UK decides to respond by locking down most urban areas and then nuking them, in an effort to preserve the much more limited rural population in what will be an almost impossible to feed world. I've been pondering this overnight and it occurs to me that this is wildly unrealistic, at least in today's world. The British government would never be capable of such pragmatic forward planning.
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Nov 14, 2021 09:27
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The COP runneth over
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Nov 14, 2021 11:05
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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/13/climate/cop26-glasgow-climate-agreement.htmlquote:But the agreement established a clear consensus that all nations must do much more, immediately, to prevent a harrowing rise in global temperatures. And it set up transparency rules to hold countries accountable for the progress they make or fail to make. farrrrrrrrttttttttttttt also quote:When Climate Action Tracker looked at these additional promises, it estimated that the world could conceivably limit global warming to 1.8 degrees Celsius by 2100, although, so far, most countries haven’t put policies in place to get there. wtf lol actionjackson has issued a correction as of 15:27 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 15:24
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thank god we will finally have a global agreement that holds everyone accountable 
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Nov 14, 2021 15:27
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this is the graph the 1.8 comes from
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Nov 14, 2021 15:28
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actionjackson posted:this is the graph the 1.8 comes from Gee wonder why isn't there a line going past 4 c indicating our current trajectory
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Nov 14, 2021 15:32
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Some places like Alaska are already +2.5C: https://apnews.com/article/climate-science-technology-environment-europe-98e55f2c64aa6d3dc76a5fc64f8d4ba2quote:
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Nov 14, 2021 15:40
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