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sebmojo posted:Yeah it was some mediaevalist or something. Was fairly convincing. As with many of Frank's Big Ideas of doesn't stand up to a lot of scrutiny that quote seems to be written by this goober: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/7033825.G_Michael_Hopf
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Nov 15, 2021 20:05
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uber_stoat posted:i remember once upon a time someone posted a link to an article that spoke at length about Frank Herbert's obsession with the "Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." bullshit. can't remember where i saw it though.
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Nov 15, 2021 20:08
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Yeah it's that. I think it is a bit of an unfair essay, frank's ideas are more idosyncratic than the trope. Not to say they add up in the end unless you are a big league libertarian
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Nov 15, 2021 20:10
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uber_stoat posted:i remember once upon a time someone posted a link to an article that spoke at length about Frank Herbert's obsession with the "Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." bullshit. can't remember where i saw it though. This one? https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/
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Nov 15, 2021 20:31
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The idea of hard times -> good people -> good times -> weak people -> hard times is a lot older than Campbell, although at a certain level it is just the great observation of "if things are bad, they may well get good; if things are good, they may well get bad," over long time frames.
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Nov 15, 2021 20:34
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I figure it's a deduction from mongol hordes/barbarians and the Roman Empire.
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Nov 15, 2021 20:40
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Not to say the trope isn't total bullshit. But to me it doesn't hold water when applied to the fremen because a. the fremen actually are highly industrialized and specialized, as the novel says straight up and b. I think the power of the fremen in frank's eyes is their ecological consciousness. This is the reason they are superior to the sardaukar, who actually are the more straightforward application of the trope. It is the separation from this via the terraforming project that weakens them more than it is the times being good
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Nov 15, 2021 20:45
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Nessus posted:The idea of hard times -> good people -> good times -> weak people -> hard times is a lot older than Campbell, although at a certain level it is just the great observation of "if things are bad, they may well get good; if things are good, they may well get bad," over long time frames. My point was more that it's such a popular part of the way stories are structured, that it warranted a mention in a book that's basically dedicated to pointing out the things that've been done the most.
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Nov 15, 2021 20:56
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it's a poo poo trope pampered knights and overly well fed 1st worlders make for better troops than peasants and 3rd worlders who have lived much harder lives
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Nov 15, 2021 20:59
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Earwicker posted:i am bad at math personally but that example seemed like a rather easy math problem? yeah, but try doing it without a calculator is the point
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Nov 15, 2021 21:00
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It's a linear curve for Frank, the harder the planet the harder the people. The dosadi experiment lays it out even more clearly. I don't think the ecological aspect bears on that part at all.
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Nov 15, 2021 21:01
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Also well fed and equipped soldiers fight better, sure, but also steppe folk have invaded stable cultures successfully so it's absolutely possible. I'm conclusion Dune is a land of contrasts
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Nov 15, 2021 21:04
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Phanatic posted:
mostly it's because the sardaukar veterans have been corrupted by luxury. sleeping in beds and not on the floor? hosed up.
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Nov 15, 2021 21:06
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I think the issue with the Sardaukar is that they're so feared, it's been centuries since they actually put their skills to the test against an enemy who can give them a run for their money. Elite training, but little ability to adapt. The Fremen are poor in many ways, but don't seem to actually lack for food, just water. My question is where they're growing all that coffee. Don't tell me they pay through the nose for imports!
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Nov 15, 2021 21:16
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I think part of the problem is we're told the fremen have agriculture, industry, high degree of societal complexity and specialization, etc. but not really shown it well enough to any extent. So people end up basically just not believing the exposition and ignoring it
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Nov 15, 2021 21:20
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Isn’t coffee a diarretic? That’s like the worst thing you could consume if your trying to to avoid usage of water.
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Nov 15, 2021 21:21
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They drink their piss and poo poo so it's not a big deal
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Nov 15, 2021 21:24
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No Mods No Masters posted:I think part of the problem is we're told the fremen have agriculture, industry, high degree of societal complexity and specialization, etc. but not really shown it well enough to any extent. So people end up basically just not believing the exposition and ignoring it
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Nov 15, 2021 21:25
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What food do the Fremen even eat? Are they growing things inside the sietches? I worry about the desert mice running around, but even if the Fremen had been eating them, it might've become an issue after their messiah named himself after them? I mean I know we all enjoy some jerky and spice, but what actual nutrients are there to be gained on Arrakis rather than recycled? Is it always just what's left over from the dead?
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Nov 15, 2021 21:25
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Halloween Jack posted:
In the real world, people have used all kinds of common, wild-growing plant products like dandelion roots and chicory as coffee substitutes, and besides, I always assumed the important part of spice coffee was the spice part and not the coffee. Arrakis is arid but not completely without vegetation, so I'd be surprised if there wasn't some kind of common weed you could grind up and brew into some kind of vaguely dark, bitter hot drink. And then, of course, you add the spice.
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Nov 15, 2021 21:29
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I think paul describes some food in the fremkit in the book right? I imagine they mostly have simple rations like a protein bar but in sietch they have meat and veggies and poo poo. I think a wrap with some poultry in it is mentioned
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Nov 15, 2021 21:31
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The weird spit coffee was a cool little idea from denis. I prefer to imagine it's actual coffee, the fremen pay a ransom to the guild to have it imported, and it is the substance second only to melange that ensures their survival and success  
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Nov 15, 2021 21:31
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looks like that the acoup guy is a cultured gentleman who enjoys the finer things in life, eg. the 2000 series
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Nov 15, 2021 21:33
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spoice
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Nov 15, 2021 21:35
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Halloween Jack posted:My question is where they're growing all that coffee. Don't tell me they pay through the nose for imports! Maybe it's chicory?
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Nov 15, 2021 21:35
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If david lynch had ever read dune he would have liked the coffee parts. No matter how nonsensically badass your society is, you still love to see that wonderful black bean juice
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Nov 15, 2021 21:39
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Do we ever get any kind of quantifiable data on spice amounts? Like how much sand do you have to go through to get X grams of the stuff, how much is in the food in absolute terms, What’s the parts per million of the navigator gas?
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Nov 15, 2021 21:45
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Samuel L. Hacksaw posted:I imagine they mostly have simple rations like a protein bar but in sietch they have meat and veggies and poo poo. I think a wrap with some poultry in it is mentioned
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Nov 15, 2021 21:45
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Nov 15, 2021 21:48
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The Atreides were building a near Sardukar army in spite of being the most outwardly civilized house living on a really nice planet pre-Arrakis move.. Herbert wasn't just writing "he man strong, girl man weak" poo poo lol, that's a garbage critique by a jerkoff.
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Nov 15, 2021 21:51
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I think that critique has everything to do with criticizing the trope (fair, it's stupid) and not really much to do with dune in the end. You can say you weren't really convinced that the fremen could have had as complex a society as we are told they did, or you can say it wasn't shown well enough, but you can't really just say that wasn't part of the book
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Nov 15, 2021 21:55
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sean10mm posted:The Atreides were building a near Sardukar army in spite of being the most outwardly civilized house living on a really nice planet pre-Arrakis move.. Herbert wasn't just writing "he man strong, girl man weak" poo poo lol, that's a garbage critique by a jerkoff. it's not exactly subtext. paul says to the emperor 'i'm gonna make SS a nice planet full of soft stuff and plants etc lol' and the emperor is all '!my sardaukar!'. the point of the atreides is they've had rigorous hypertraining and they're nearly as good as the sardaukar, while the fremen are that way naturally just because of arrakis. also the dosadi experiment is 100% 'this insanely brutal planet breeds ubermenschen and womenen who must be suppressed lest they conquer the galaxy' then they're not suppressed and they conquer the galaxy. (this also happens in dune)
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Nov 15, 2021 22:00
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What's actually interesting about the Fremen is that they're the only faction with a noble motive, to literally make a better world for future generations to live on. Following Paul is basically the Fremen selling their souls because he offers them a shortcut to the paradise that Kynes would have them build over generations of hard, boring work. "if you choose the quick and easy path... you will become an agent of evil."
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Nov 15, 2021 22:09
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sean10mm posted:What's actually interesting about the Fremen is that they're the only faction with a noble motive, to literally make a better world for future generations to live on. yeah p much
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Nov 15, 2021 22:14
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YoursTruly posted:What food do the Fremen even eat? Are they growing things inside the sietches? I worry about the desert mice running around, but even if the Fremen had been eating them, it might've become an issue after their messiah named himself after them? There's a bit in appendix 1 about this- Arrakis' soil can be incredibly fertlie; it's just water that is lacking.
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Nov 15, 2021 22:21
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uber_stoat posted:presented without comment i really doubt any of the duncans would ever be gay because he's such a bigot in God Emperor he almost kills moneo because he can't stand the fact that he saw two girls kissing
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Nov 15, 2021 22:24
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sebmojo posted:yeah p much To sort of continue arguing but not really, you can read the Fremen as "going soft" because Arrakis is made into a nice place with weather satellites later in the series... but also there's all this other stuff about how going on holy war was just a mass trauma nobody could process because they come home and it's not even home anymore even though it's objectively "better" now. They don't even get to enjoy going soft, really, they're more broken as people than anything. I, Butthole posted:i really doubt any of the duncans would ever be gay because he's such a bigot in God Emperor he almost kills moneo because he can't stand the fact that he saw two girls kissing However homophobic Herbert was (definitely), it's still funny that he wrote that just so he could have the book stop and make fun of Duncan there IIRC.
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Nov 15, 2021 22:27
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sean10mm posted:What's actually interesting about the Fremen is that they're the only faction with a noble motive, to literally make a better world for future generations to live on. Kwizatz Haderach literally means, "The shortening of the way."
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Nov 15, 2021 22:29
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sean10mm posted:What's actually interesting about the Fremen is that they're the only faction with a noble motive, to literally make a better world for future generations to live on. Kynes’ plan would have led directly to catastrophe for like, every other planet in existence. Essentially it would have had the same effects as Leto’s tyranny (spice flow drops to practically nothing, interstellar transportation all but breaks down, Tleilaxu and Ixians end up figuring out how to end run around Arrakis) but without the prohibition of large scale armed conflict. Arrakis would have been very green and nice for a while and I’m sure the Fremen would have enjoyed it, but I think it’s safe to say it would not have improved the lives of the future generations of countless other planets.
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Nov 15, 2021 22:43
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skasion posted:Kynes’ plan would have led directly to catastrophe for like, every other planet in existence. Essentially it would have had the same effects as Leto’s tyranny (spice flow drops to practically nothing, interstellar transportation all but breaks down, Tleilaxu and Ixians end up figuring out how to end run around Arrakis) but without the prohibition of large scale armed conflict. Arrakis would have been very green and nice for a while and I’m sure the Fremen would have enjoyed it, but I think it’s safe to say it would not have improved the lives of the future generations of countless other planets.
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Nov 15, 2021 22:51
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