|
Is Disgaea grinding really that grindy? Other than maxing items you can get to the level cap in minutes.
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 00:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 13:57 |
|
|
Honestly don't know, I've never actually done it myself. Though if it's actually a pretty breezy process I suppose that supports my thesis about how "grindy" has come to mean "this game lets you do a thing for the express purpose of powering up/getting resources no matter how brief." I sorta understand "grindy" to mean "lots of grinding is required for progression" not "you might want to fight a handful of extra battles sometimes"
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 00:35
|
|
|
Harrow posted:I'm reminded of a recurring argument in the RPG thread about whether Disgaea is, if you just do the main story, "grindy." At least one poster insists that Disgaea is a very grindy game even if you just want to do the main story, pointing to how grindy the endgame is (by design, it's all about grinding to super big numbers), while other people who have actually played some Disgaea games point out that no, you can generally beat the main story without grinding. (This argument recurs because any time someone brings up grinding in Disgaea's endgame the argument starts again.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 00:35
|
|
|
Harrow posted:Honestly don't know, I've never actually done it myself. Octopath is probably the most modern example of this if you wanna beat the final boss. The xp gets increasingly worse as you get higher and the battles really aren't quick either. Unless you get lucky with Bewildering Grace.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 00:38
|
|
|
Senator Drinksalot posted:Octopath is probably the most modern example of this if you wanna beat the final boss. The xp gets increasingly worse as you get higher and the battles really aren't quick either. Unless you get lucky with Bewildering Grace. You don't actually have to grind to beat the super boss in Octopath. It's all about the job/gear/skill setups. The first time I beat it I didn't know about any of that stuff and did a ton of level grinding but after watching a speedrun of it I learned that levels don't really matter much. You can start a new game of Octopath and beat the super boss in 4 hours and the only place you need to do any grinding at all is near the beginning of the game and it's only for a couple levels. And yeah "grindy" doesn't mean "ugh I have to do a couple extra fights in this one area" it means "in order to beat Dragon Quest 1 and 2 I must be at a minimum level or I literally cannot beat the final boss".
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 00:57
|
|
|
Senator Drinksalot posted:Is Disgaea grinding really that grindy? Other than maxing items you can get to the level cap in minutes. You can really only get to the level cap in minutes if you've already done a ton of grinding (powerful equipment and either you've already grinded that character to have good stats, or you're piggy-backing off another strong character that's been ground up). Disgaea postgame is really just a potentially infinite grind, with the "game" being figuring out how to grind most efficiently. The normal game plays very similar to a lot of other RPGs, where you'll probably be able to beat it at a reasonable level of 60 or something. But once you start unlocking end/postgame stuff, you get into a snowballing powergrind cycle where you can not only level to 9999, but then you reincarnate back to level 1 while keeping some of your stats, allowing you to gain higher stats the second, third, etc time you grind to 9999. You may need to be switching classes and grinding weird tutor/student relationships to gain abilities. You have to grind weapon and ability proficiencies (which drop each time you reincarnate). Every item (EVERY ITEM) can have a 100-floor random dungeon in it with boss stages every 10 floors, and you have to go through those to make the item stronger (and in some games, you can then reset the item and go through the whole thing multiple more times). You can generally only get, like, the third-strongest item of each type through "normal" means (like stealing from a post-game boss), and then you have to go through 100 floors of a legendary version of that item and steal the next upgrade off the boss on the 100th floor, and then repeat that for each subsequent upgrade. You probably need to defeat and combine special monsters from the item world that you can equip on items for further stats, and it takes a lot of grinding to get those upgrades up to snuff. The list goes on and on. So yeah, the Disgaea series' postgame is grindy as poo poo, and they're designed to cater to a specific crowd that loves seeing numbers go up and is willing to put in hundreds of hours to make your numbers the biggest numbers.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 01:32
|
|
|
Octopath had the brilliant idea to have a final level that is every bit as bad as the early version of FF3, in that you have to fight ten tough bosses with no saving whatsoever,
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 01:36
|
|
|
Inspector Gesicht posted:Octopath had the brilliant idea to have a final level that is every bit as bad as the early version of FF3, in that you have to fight ten tough bosses with no saving whatsoever, It's not really the final level since it's optional but yeah it really sucks if you keep losing to the super boss. Not because the boss gauntlet is hard but because it takes time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 01:46
|
|
|
I'm almost done with my first runthrough of FFI PR and I'm pretty much able to auto-battle almost everything that comes in my way with regular attacks and spell casting items and come out relatively unscathed. Of course there's the odd fight in Chaos Shrine that can require actual effort but I'm steamrolling stuff. I'm sure Chaos will push my face in, or at the least come close to it though. The Pixel Remasters being these nice, breezy affairs is great for accessibility and fairly fast playthroughs.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 02:39
|
|
|
Grimthwacker posted:The Pixel Remasters being these nice, breezy affairs is great for accessibility and fairly fast playthroughs. Definitely this. I enjoy exploring and going to the next weird location, but not getting bogged down with any tedium.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 02:53
|
|
|
Elephant Ambush posted:And yeah "grindy" doesn't mean "ugh I have to do a couple extra fights in this one area" it means "in order to beat Dragon Quest 1 and 2 I must be at a minimum level or I literally cannot beat the final boss". Dragon Quest 1 (only the NES version though) is always my first thought when it comes to something being grindy, since most of the game is grinding outside of town to afford most of the best gear before moving on to the next town/exploring the dungeon. And of course having a last boss that has a hard minimum level you need to be at in order to have a chance at winning, and the level is probably not something you hit even with all the previous grinding.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 02:56
|
|
|
Schwartzcough posted:You can really only get to the level cap in minutes if you've already done a ton of grinding (powerful equipment and either you've already grinded that character to have good stats, or you're piggy-backing off another strong character that's been ground up). Disgaea postgame is really just a potentially infinite grind, with the "game" being figuring out how to grind most efficiently. The normal game plays very similar to a lot of other RPGs, where you'll probably be able to beat it at a reasonable level of 60 or something. But once you start unlocking end/postgame stuff, you get into a snowballing powergrind cycle where you can not only level to 9999, but then you reincarnate back to level 1 while keeping some of your stats, allowing you to gain higher stats the second, third, etc time you grind to 9999. You may need to be switching classes and grinding weird tutor/student relationships to gain abilities. You have to grind weapon and ability proficiencies (which drop each time you reincarnate). Every item (EVERY ITEM) can have a 100-floor random dungeon in it with boss stages every 10 floors, and you have to go through those to make the item stronger (and in some games, you can then reset the item and go through the whole thing multiple more times). You can generally only get, like, the third-strongest item of each type through "normal" means (like stealing from a post-game boss), and then you have to go through 100 floors of a legendary version of that item and steal the next upgrade off the boss on the 100th floor, and then repeat that for each subsequent upgrade. You probably need to defeat and combine special monsters from the item world that you can equip on items for further stats, and it takes a lot of grinding to get those upgrades up to snuff. The list goes on and on. I just remember it being ridiculously easy to level up in 3 after getting Big Bang (which i don't think took very long to get either)
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 03:59
|
|
|
Its not a mandatory level requirement but in Dragon Quest 8 fighting the jester boss before and after hitting level 25 is like beyond told to cross a field covered in barbwire on foot and then being told to do that but you can now ride in a tank.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 04:11
|
|
|
FF5 berserker with two-handed is really good and I wish more people gave it a chance. It is, of course, completely useless against Exdeath but by then the STR/Stamina freelancer bonus means you can do whatever you want and be just fine!
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 05:53
|
|
|
Berserkers/axes are really neat but they’re pretty random between berserkers having random targets in most versions, axes mostly having 80% hit (lots of weapons have the same/lower hit but they run off the Knives damage formula that halves enemy evasion) and a fluctuating range of damage on top of that. They hit hard but it’s not hard to see why most players just ignore the job when their berserker whiffs or rolls for low damage on something where the axes’ defense piercing isn’t a big deal.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 06:11
|
|
|
Here's a hot tip - give your Berserker the Dancing Dagger. When those Sword Dances come out it's silly. Basically worth it up until the Rune Axe.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 06:56
|
|
|
What am I supposed to do about FF6 T-Edition Ultros being able to one hit Banon in the back row from full health?
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 07:27
|
|
|
Two handed on a Zerk is basically only worth it if you have absolutely nothing else useful to give them, like I dunno, Knight/Zerk/Geo/Chemist. Daggers are going to do more damage than an axe due to missing less and the damage formula being less random, though of course Zerk is going to be equipping Death Sickle for a good portion of world 1 and basically all of world 2. Death Sickle starts to lose its luster when you get to world 3, but that's fine since world 3 is when you can get the really good shields and don't really want to use two handed anymore anyway.Alxprit posted:Here's a hot tip - give your Berserker the Dancing Dagger. When those Sword Dances come out it's silly. Basically worth it up until the Rune Axe. Yeah Dancing Dagger always goes on my Zerk for any boss fight that I don't want Death Sickle (which is almost all of them!).
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 07:29
|
|
|
Not being able to use commands really limits what abilities will actually be useful. Twohanded does something so that puts it above a good portion of abilities just by default. You may not always want to forgo a shield but the dps increase is definitely worth a consideration. If you don't have a wizard, twohanding the second best axe will probably be better than using the rune axe
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 07:43
|
|
|
Mr. Trampoline posted:What am I supposed to do about FF6 T-Edition Ultros being able to one hit Banon in the back row from full health? You basically have two options: Defend works against magic attacks now, so if you track how far into his AI Ultros is you can have Banon survive, or try and kill Ultros before he targets Banon. I'm not a fan.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 08:07
|
|
|
Nihilarian posted:If you don't have a wizard, twohanding the second best axe will probably be better than using the rune axe Probably, but the second best axe (which is actually a hammer, Thor's Hammer) has an attack power of 78. However, the Assassin's Dagger also has an attack power of 78, can also be two handed, and will deal more damage due to missing less and having more consistent damage numbers. Though of course you wouldn't want to use Assassin's Dagger on anything undead, so then Thor's Hammer would definitely be preferable. You can also use Thor's Hammer back row of course but that doesn't seem worth the DPS loss since by the time you get it, the only boss that would really benefit from back row zerk is NED, and even then even if you don't have an Aegis to spare for the zerk, I'd rather have the Crystal Shield and its high block chance than two hand in the back row.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 09:09
|
|
|
Twelve by Pies posted:However, the Assassin's Dagger also has an attack power of 78, can also be two handed No it can't, unless this is some Pixel Remaster quirk.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 14:14
|
|
|
1) Thor's Hammer has 81 attack 2) which is less than the Titan's Axe, with 91 3) i don't think daggers can be twohanded
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 14:19
|
|
|
Look at these people with good jobs. I'm suffering with Thief, RDM, Bard and Samurai Not much however. Zeninage and Romeos Ballad are really good. So is Requiem
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 14:24
|
|
|
Give zerky equip harps and destroy your enemies with the power of music.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 14:25
|
|
|
I'm wondering, is there any resource compiling all the mechanical changes in the Pixel Remasters? I love seeing that kind of stuff.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 14:28
|
|
|
Thief is really goddamn bad, tho They should have fixed the steal formula
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 14:32
|
|
|
Thief is fine? It's not even the worst Wind job (that's Monk).
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 14:34
|
|
|
Only because of the Chicken Knife.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 14:35
|
|
|
OneEightHundred posted:Several jobs are just not very good at all, several are really tricky to get good equipment for later on, some of them are really good in ways that aren't obvious at all (i.e. permanent Brave boosting, inflicting Chicken status). Not only that, but many jobs can actually be...kinda bad at their own job. Like most people playing the game probably have it in the back of their head somewhere that maybe thief is the best class for you know, thief skills. Or that orator is best at orator skills or whatever. And then if you look at the actual math and it's like oh, monk is the best thief? And black mage is the best orator. And black mage is the best summoner. And black mage is the best mystic. Fun fact - stat-wise orator is almost the absolute worst unit in the game at using its own skills.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 14:38
|
|
|
Kyrosiris posted:Thief is fine? It's not even the worst Wind job (that's Monk). Monk trivializes world 1 and World 2 and is middling in world 3.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 14:41
|
|
|
jokes posted:Monk trivializes world 1 and World 2 and is middling in world 3. Monks punch damage pretty much scales with just level. Levels slow way down in w3 but enemy HP grows a ton. So you're left with a fist that can't punch hard enough. You can give them steroids from chemist and then they poo poo out damage with both hands. Nice since they can crit fairly regularly.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 14:46
|
|
|
jokes posted:Monk trivializes world 1 and World 2 and is middling in world 3. I guess if you fight every random encounter? But that sounds loving miserable. They start falling off right when the game actually starts getting serious - around early-middle world 2 - and even in world 1 where they're above average, there's fights where they struggle like Byblos without assistance. Realistically the only good thing Monk does is let you skip four-fifths of Archaeoavis.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 14:54
|
|
|
Fists scale off Level and Strength actually! Which means you’ll probably be able to make a better bare-fist person the minute Monk is mastered by turning them into a freelancer who can wear good strength equipment.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 15:13
|
|
|
Arist posted:Only because of the Chicken Knife. Pre Chicken Knife is just horrid.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 15:13
|
|
|
jokes posted:Fists scale off Level and Strength actually! Which means you’ll probably be able to make a better bare-fist person the minute Monk is mastered by turning them into a freelancer who can wear good strength equipment. So... the ribbon? Pretty sure monk can already equip all the other strength boosting armor. Also if you're using a freelancer, why would you not just give them a real weapon to use monk's strength stat with instead of leaving them barehanded?
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 15:25
|
|
|
Because Barehanded hits twice and you’re unlikely to get dual wielding for a very long time? Idk, people have reasons. Monk is good early game but definitely tapers off into nigh-irrelevance but it’s still useful for a very long time, mine is still (literally) kicking rear end well into World 2, so People have this weird mindset where suboptimal is bad, but FFV is a very easy game and you can beat the game with really, really bad job combos. Monk is definitely not one of the bad ones.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 15:35
|
|
|
Dr Pepper posted:That's just how FF4 worked in general. Dancing dagger actually had some usefulness in FF4 on the SNES, as did stuff like the ice rod. In FF4PR they are 100% worthless at all times. The dancing dagger's special effect can and generally does hit for less damage than a normal attack. I like the PR games but they have a lot of bugs and jank that needs to get fixed. Senator Drinksalot posted:Is Disgaea grinding really that grindy? Other than maxing items you can get to the level cap in minutes. It takes time to get to the "press button receive max level" point of post game. Nemo2342 posted:Dragon Quest 1 (only the NES version though) is always my first thought when it comes to something being grindy, since most of the game is grinding outside of town to afford most of the best gear before moving on to the next town/exploring the dungeon. And of course having a last boss that has a hard minimum level you need to be at in order to have a chance at winning, and the level is probably not something you hit even with all the previous grinding. You absolutely, 100% do not need to do this to progress in Dragon Quest 1 (even excluding any sort of cheese strat you might pull off to get Erdrick's armor 'early'). Though you will need to hit a certain amount of atk/def/hp/mp to be able to beat the final boss.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 15:37
|
|
|
You don't need to grind up to get the absolute best equipment in DQ1 in every town, but you do have to level grind a bit, otherwise you're going to get exploded the first time you cross a bridge or something.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 15:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 13:57 |
|
|
Arist posted:Only because of the Chicken Knife. Chicken Knife's toned down in PR. Still does the crazy damage at max, and it's maybe even a little less physically painful to reach max since you can autobattle with !Flee rather than deathgrip LR, but the "easy" mitigations of the proc no longer mitigate it. As for Monk punching, you'll never know you miss it until you get a 4JF roll involving THF/NIN/NIN. Five-six hands to put knives in, and two-three good knives in the entire game, all of which are unique; Twin Lance isn't bad but low base/high multiplier really hurts against lategame defense.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2021 16:02
|
|