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Rynoto posted:Sounds like you aren't navy spamming and building forts. Covering the entire border in forts as your navy blockades them for score and exhaustion can cripple most countries. -french general staff, 1938
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Nov 17, 2021 00:41
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Vicky 2 Prussia kind of should be very strong, considering this is basically their heyday. They should particularly be able to go toe to toe with France, considering they kind of beat the tar out of them at least once in this time period.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:44
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AnoHito posted:Vicky 2 Prussia kind of should be very strong, considering this is basically their heyday. They should particularly be able to go toe to toe with France, considering they kind of beat the tar out of them at least once in this time period. Agreed, it's not terribly appropriate in EU4 but they were very successful during this period.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:45
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yeah to be honest i'm not really complaining that i actually got beaten in a war by a paradox ai, i just legitimately forgot how deadly even attacks which are not obviously ill-advised can be in this game
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Nov 17, 2021 00:47
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Every nation gets boiled down to the popular vision of it for gameplay reasons. England was hardly good boat island for the entire period, Venice wasn't raking in the trade money the whole time, Sweden is way overpowered etc.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:54
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I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that Prussia got its reputation during the Seven Year's war where it (with massive British financial support) held against France, the Hapsburgs, Russia, Sweden, and Spain in Europe while Britain sailed around taking colonies and blockading the aforementioned belligerents.
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Nov 17, 2021 02:15
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Jazerus posted:-french general staff, 1938 It worked for a few hundred years so not surprised a bunch of old farts thought it would work like that forever 
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Nov 17, 2021 03:31
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As this seems to be the vicky 2 thread can I throw out a recommendation for the GFM mod. Its built on HPM which was already a fun upgrade on vanilla without being too railroady. I have a Sweden game at the moment where I have been fighting Russia and prussia on and off for 15 years but as all gps get a dismantle cb on whoever wins the brothers war it really keeps things interesting. Up to number 4 in gp list by 1870 and have all of scandi cored and sphered so its going pretty well I think!
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Nov 17, 2021 04:40
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Dramicus posted:I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that Prussia got its reputation during the Seven Year's war where it (with massive British financial support) held against France, the Hapsburgs, Russia, Sweden, and Spain in Europe while Britain sailed around taking colonies and blockading the aforementioned belligerents. The Prussian accomplishments in the Seven Years War are legitimately impressive, although the armies they were up against were just Austria, Russia, and France (for exactly one battle on their own, admittedly a masterful win for Frederick. The two later major battles saw France face coalition armies of not just the Prussians, but substantial forces from Britain and Hanover as well). I could be mistaken but I don't think Spain participated in the German theatre at all. Prussia was also on the brink of defeat before the Russian Empress died, and her successor just took Russia's ball and went home. British financial support was also crucial for their success, Prussia could not have fought the war without those subsidies. While it was a stunning military success for Prussia, it's not really a thing that gets repeated outside of the reign of Frederick the Great, up until the General Staff era which is much more a Vicky thing than an EU thing. And the Prussians get absolutely wrecked by Napoleon on multiple occasions, it's hardly a continuous record of success or anything.
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Nov 17, 2021 06:10
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I mean at least they had more actual success than the Spartans who just managed to lose one important battle slightly better than expected, getting their king killed, and with tons of propaganda suddenly they are penultimate military badasses.
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Nov 17, 2021 08:01
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Eimi posted:I mean at least they had more actual success than the Spartans who just managed to lose one important battle slightly better than expected, getting their king killed, and with tons of propaganda suddenly they are penultimate military badasses. second only to whatever fascists are carrying the narrative?
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Nov 17, 2021 09:24
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Eimi posted:I mean at least they had more actual success than the Spartans who just managed to lose one important battle slightly better than expected, getting their king killed, and with tons of propaganda suddenly they are penultimate military badasses. You should probably Google the Peloponnesian war. While Spartan military might is highly overrated, their entire legend is not founded on one battle.
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Nov 17, 2021 09:44
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A big part of spartan training was also learning how to properly sing and war dance because culture; also raising nothing but ruthless killing machines isn't conducive to a multi-hundred year civilization's continuing existence. All the greek city-states are fascinating in their own ways tbh.
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Nov 17, 2021 09:47
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Gaius Marius posted:Every nation gets boiled down to the popular vision of it for gameplay reasons. England was hardly good boat island for the entire period, Venice wasn't raking in the trade money the whole time, Sweden is way overpowered etc. Russia is Soviet style Swarm of infantry regardless of era I use the term "Meme History" internally a lot. People have certain expectations of countries and if we don't give that then it's "ahistorical". You know like "Spain should obviously inherit Burgundy even though it was Austria that did" etc. etc.
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Nov 17, 2021 10:10
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Jazerus posted:-french general staff, 1938 To be fair, the strat works if Hitler doesn't side with Manstein or if Belgium doesn't desert the alliance. SnoochtotheNooch posted:Also I don’t think you have to be a nazi enthusiast to be interested in the turbodisciplined Prussian army or whatever. There’s definitely other examples out there that get the same fascination IMO, samurai/Spartans. Eh, I'm pretty suspicious of anyone who specifically fetishizes prussian militarism. It usually leads to Clean Wehrmacht and Asiatic Bolshevik Hordes. It also sucked in its own right. I'm alsatian, and getting conquered by Prussia led to more oppression than even France managed. I'll admit I'm biased though. My family on the BaWü side of the river still use "preisch" to mean "rear end in a top hat," and will hear about a good restaurant in Berlin and say "Prussians... with taste?? lol" Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 12:31 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 12:22
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SnoochtotheNooch posted:I’ve always had the impression the Prussian state was a super threatening military force as soon as it “existed”. Is this not the case? Also I don’t think you have to be a nazi enthusiast to be interested in the turbodisciplined Prussian army or whatever. There’s definitely other examples out there that get the same fascination IMO, samurai/Spartans. Edgar Allen Ho posted:I'll admit I'm biased though. My family on the BaWü side of the river still use "preisch" to mean "rear end in a top hat," and will hear about a good restaurant in Berlin and say "Prussians... with taste?? lol"
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Nov 17, 2021 13:21
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I'll strongly recommend Christopher Clark's Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia, 1600–1947 for anyone interested in the history of Prussia. It also strongly argues against the idea of a simplistic Prussian legacy, centering on obedience and hierarchy, that formed the kernel of Nazi Germany.
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Nov 17, 2021 13:33
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Star posted:I'll strongly recommend Christopher Clark's Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia, 1600–1947 for anyone interested in the history of Prussia. It also strongly argues against the idea of a simplistic Prussian legacy, centering on obedience and hierarchy, that formed the kernel of Nazi Germany. Oh, I've got that one in a box somewhere. I used it as a source for a paper when I was in university. I never read the entire thing but there was a pertinent section for whatever I was writing about at the time. But that was more than 10 years ago, I don't remember much else.
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Nov 17, 2021 14:22
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Didn't the Danes own the Prussians once too?
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Nov 17, 2021 14:33
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Star posted:I'll strongly recommend Christopher Clark's Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia, 1600–1947 for anyone interested in the history of Prussia. It also strongly argues against the idea of a simplistic Prussian legacy, centering on obedience and hierarchy, that formed the kernel of Nazi Germany. This is a really good book and was fundamental in helping me getter an actual grasp of what Brandenburg, King IN Prussia and the development of the zollverein into Germany. DaysBefore posted:Didn't the Danes own the Prussians once too? Basically everyone did. Video game prussians are protrayed as robocops because of the seven years war and the franco prussian war. I wonder how much these idiots froth at the mouth when they read about Jenna Auerstedt, how Brandenburg spent the thirty years war begging for clemency and being a playground for the Swedes or how the entire concept the Prussian Monarchy was based on Austria willingness and Russia straight up changing their mind about burning Berlin to the ground when the Russians were just about to knock on the door. Mans fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 14:35
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Mans posted:This is a really good book and was fundamental in helping me getter an actual grasp of what Brandenburg, King IN Prussia and the development of the zollverein into Germany.
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Nov 17, 2021 14:51
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, reading up on conflicts involving Prussia, the biggest takeaway for me has always been how much Russia decided the outcome of conflicts. In some cases in favor of Prussia's enemies, but when they favored Prussia they helped get them out of jams that might've ended their pretensions of being a real power in Germany for good. For that it's a typical case of supporting a thorn in your rival's side. Prussia causing problems for the Austrians, Polish-Lithuanians and Swedes worked in Russia's favor. The problem was that the thorn was watered too much and it eventually grew into a bush.
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Nov 17, 2021 15:02
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PittTheElder posted:That General Staff with its focus on professionalism and meritocracy is the thing that makes the Prussian/German Army the supreme land army in Europe for a century and a half, but it doesn't exist until 1804. And the relative strength of that peaked at ~1890 or so. It wasn't that the Germans were super good at anything, it's that everyone used to be embarassingly bad, but the Prussians built their identity on being good soldiers and when Napoleon clearly demonstrated to them that they weren't anything particularly special, they decided to invest big in figuring out how to do this war thing right. Then when the Franco-Prussian war ended in a massive underdog upset victory curbstomp, the rest of the world started paying attention and copied the good stuff over a few decades. At the same time the Prussian officer corps was already beginning to ossify, ditch the meritocracy parts and become just another military aristocracy for all the same reasons why all the other similar organizations had done so in the past. Dramicus posted:I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that Prussia got its reputation during the Seven Year's war where it (with massive British financial support) held against France, the Hapsburgs, Russia, Sweden, and Spain in Europe while Britain sailed around taking colonies and blockading the aforementioned belligerents. But in EU4 terms that really should be modeled by old Fritz and his daddy being mil 9 kings with god-tier general stats, not making every Prussian soldier from about 1500 onwards much better than everyone else. The period where Prussians ruled the battlefield and could trust to win against dramatic odds was really short, and it was just an army among many others both before and after that during the EU4 time period.
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Nov 17, 2021 16:19
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Tuna-Fish posted:
Having a single identity like that is probably good game design even if it's awful history, though, especially in a game that needs to give flavor to so many different countries.
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Nov 17, 2021 16:30
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EU4 does have the "historically lucky nations" mechanic thing going on. I don't know if it could be used to make Prussia militarily "lucky" during the 1700's. That might be a way of handling it.
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Nov 17, 2021 16:37
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OddObserver posted:Having a single identity like that is probably good game design even if it's awful history, though, especially in a game that needs to give flavor to so many different countries. Yeah, to me this is one of those times game design butts up against history and game design wins. There are a lot of ahistorical design decisions reflective of that and i don't think it's evidence of someone adopting fascist whig history or being a wehraboo or whatever.
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Nov 17, 2021 16:45
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I'm not sure how "This specific country is overtuned as hell to ensure it kicks an ahistorical amount of rear end" is superior to a more general system that allows countries to punch above their weight class occasionally. Wouldn't it be more interesting if any of your neighbors/rivals can potentially become a real menace for a while, rather than being known entities? Not that this is an issue unique to Prussia, just look at England. Frankly, I'd much prefer if Paradox let EU4 be more systems based/materialist, and let Victorian stereotypes/power levels stay in Victoria. The whole point of these games is to change history, so why lock in the historical end point in a setting where change and the creation of the modern state should be the focus?
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Nov 17, 2021 17:09
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they got it pretty perfect in EU4 with spain, where in that one age with the bonus they have they are just completely unstoppable and after it ends they are just completely hilariously pitiful.
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Nov 17, 2021 17:11
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OddObserver posted:Having a single identity like that is probably good game design even if it's awful history, though, especially in a game that needs to give flavor to so many different countries. Yeah. I feel it's one of the greatest weaknesses of Stellaris that there's little of this.
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Nov 17, 2021 17:25
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genericnick posted:Yeah. I feel it's one of the greatest weaknesses of Stellaris that there's little of this. I never understood why there wasn't a "story" map with all the premade cultures in more or less static locations with predefined paths to follow. That would have been a nice take on 4x and kept it paradoxy
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Nov 17, 2021 18:06
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Grevlek posted:I never understood why there wasn't a "story" map with all the premade cultures in more or less static locations with predefined paths to follow. That would have been a nice take on 4x and kept it paradoxy Because a major USP of Stellaris is the random exploration and dynamic empires and moving focus away from that would have watered it down. It may not be your personal cup of tea, but it's probably the single biggest reason Stellaris dominates the Space 4x genre so completely. Wiz fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 18:12
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Wiz posted:Because a major USP of Stellaris is the random exploration and dynamic empires and moving focus away from that would have watered it down. It may not be your personaly cup of tea, but it's probably the single biggest reason Stellaris dominates the Space 4x genre so completely. Stellaris is actually my most played game since HoI2. Im not saying take away the randomness, I was hoping to add some paradox fun in the way that I always know what France is gonna do, why not the same with the Blorgs? My friend and I spent a few days making a mod of science fiction cultures, mapped to the AI profiles, and it's the only way I can play. It's nice to have Romulans, the Replicators, and the Centauri from Babylon 5 all in the same universe. I know what the Centauri are going to do, but the Federated Stars of Blitspolo are just kind of white noise to me and are just fodder to be conquered. Please don't take the previous post as the typical attempt to dunk on Stellaris/Pdox, if anything I'm asking for Stellaris to be more of a pds game. Thanks for all the hard work with the game I miss the two alternate travel modes 
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Nov 17, 2021 18:17
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Wiz posted:Stellaris dominates the Space 4x genre so completely. For real? That's pretty cool, I hadn't realized it was that successful!
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Nov 17, 2021 18:24
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PittTheElder posted:For real? That's pretty cool, I hadn't realized it was that successful! There's not a lot of competition. From SteamCharts monthly average players: Stellaris 12,986 Sins of a Solar Empire 618 Endless Space 2 569 Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 332 Master of Orion 297 Galactic Civilizations 3 289 Battlestar Galactica Deadlock 73 Distant Worlds: Universe 32 Sword of the Stars 25 Space Empires 5 18 AI War 2 15 Polaris Sector 8 Stellar Monarch 4 Some of these are more properly RTS games, some are old (REALLY old in some cases) but Stellaris really does have the space 4X genre to itself for all practical purposes. This also doesn't take into account console players at all - no idea how Stellaris for consoles is doing but it REALLY has that space all to itself Lum_ fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 18:37
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My most played series are in order Hoi -> Stellaris -> Crusader Kings So if a certain publisher, say Paradox, were to take a property which they publish, say Battletech, and combine the three concepts...
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Nov 17, 2021 18:37
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Stellaris is by far the paradox game I've put the most hours into, 1000+, but it's probably the paradox game I've liked the least. Just so incredibly thirsty for a good space 4X I'm willing to drink seawater. Every DLC was me thinking "oh, maybe I won't throw up after drinking the sea water after this big patch!" but I never ever learned.
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Nov 17, 2021 18:38
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Grevlek posted:Stellaris is actually my most played game since HoI2. Im not saying take away the randomness, I was hoping to add some paradox fun in the way that I always know what France is gonna do, why not the same with the Blorgs? I didn't take it as a dunk or anything, don't worry, just trying to explain that Stellaris is meant to be different and having to maintain a story mode would take resources away from the randomness that is at the core of the game, so it's a purposeful choice to not do it.
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Nov 17, 2021 18:39
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Wiz posted:I didn't take it as a dunk or anything, don't worry, just trying to explain that Stellaris is meant to be different and having to maintain a story mode would take resources away from the randomness that is at the core of the game, so it's a purposeful choice to not do it. also, mods exist. The Star Trek New Horizons mod is set in a pre-configured galaxy with 50 years worth of storytelling chrome.
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Nov 17, 2021 18:44
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Grevlek posted:Stellaris is actually my most played game since HoI2. Mine is EU4. I can make a lot of nitpicks but at the end of the day it's "give more map games, developer daddy!"
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Nov 17, 2021 19:27
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Lum_ posted:also, mods exist. The Star Trek New Horizons mod is set in a pre-configured galaxy with 50 years worth of storytelling chrome. Yeah, I tried that once and it was just too chonky. I wasn't necessarily looking for a story, just a semi-static starting map option with the premade races. Realllly get to know the Blorg. With the magic of modding, I was able to find a way to satiate what I wanted. My friend and I have like 100 sci-fi empires, we get a nice random pool of them when we play, and thanks to the AI profiles they largely do what you would expect them to do. Really the only thing we are missing is a way to get custom Fallen Empires into the mix. We could add the Vorlons, the Shadows, and the Asgard for example. I don't want to play as a Fallen Empire, but it'd be nice to have some custom ones!
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Nov 17, 2021 19:39
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