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CainFortea posted:Glitch speedruns use the same set of skills just applied in weird ways. My only thought on the subject is, if you're using a bug to do something that is a tacit understanding then it's a buck and may or may not be fixed at any time. Being mad when someone gets fixed is silly That's kinda how I'm feeling about it, a little disappointing to have it removed for losing the tactic in the speedrun, but I kinda get where the game designers are coming from fixing it.
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Nov 17, 2021 16:35
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RBA Starblade posted:Speed runs can be fun to watch but when it's generally just going out of bounds to the end of the game or exploiting some memory thing to instantly win outside of the novelty of it they aren't very interesting to watch, imo I can’t imagine more than a tiny number of people, for example, enjoy watching people do those Ocarina of Time runs where you use arbitrary code execution to warp to the end credits straight from the first area. I appreciate that some people like glitchy speed runs, and it’s good that those categories exist for those people to enjoy, but I don’t agree with the premise that a developer should decline to patch known bugs just a month after a game’s release in deference to a niche community.
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Nov 17, 2021 16:46
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Ogmius815 posted:I can’t imagine more than a tiny number of people, for example, enjoy watching people do those Ocarina of Time runs where you use arbitrary code execution to warp to the end credits straight from the first area. you're wrong, and tons of people love watching it. Hope this helps.
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Nov 17, 2021 17:21
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FFXIV Porn posted:you're wrong, and tons of people love watching it. Hope this helps. Yeah but it’s probably like hundreds or thousands at most right? This is in the context of a game that sold 7.6 million copies not counting rereleases. It’s a tiny, niche community.
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Nov 17, 2021 17:23
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Ogmius815 posted:Yeah but it’s probably like hundreds or thousands at most right? This is in the context of a game that sold 7.6 million copies not counting rereleases. It’s a tiny, niche community. no one tell this guy about gdq
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Nov 17, 2021 17:27
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Ogmius815 posted:Yeah but it’s probably like hundreds or thousands at most right? This is in the context of a game that sold 7.6 million copies not counting rereleases. It’s a tiny, niche community. ... how many people do you think watch glitchless speedruns?
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Nov 17, 2021 17:30
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You can tell the glitch speedrun community is very small because you have people who'll get upset about the suggestion that it's very small at the drop of a hat.
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Nov 17, 2021 17:32
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Zore posted:... how many people do you think watch glitchless speedruns? I dunno, but the latest gdq dread video has 10k views after 2 days, so I don't think it's exactly outlandish to claim that out of the millions of copies sold, people watching speed runs is a small minority.
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Nov 17, 2021 17:33
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Bleck posted:You can tell the glitch speedrun community is very small because you have people who'll get upset about the suggestion that it's very small at the drop of a hat. its true. anyone who says something is false it's because they know it's actually true.
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Nov 17, 2021 17:45
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Bleck posted:people who'll get upset
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Nov 17, 2021 18:03
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CainFortea posted:I dunno, but the latest gdq dread video has 10k views after 2 days, so I don't think it's exactly outlandish to claim that out of the millions of copies sold, people watching speed runs is a small minority. Right that was my point. Glitchless runs have even fewer views than that so pointing out glitched runs have relatively tiny audiences is 
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Nov 17, 2021 18:08
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Developers have always patched bugs when possible. It is the reason you have some runs done on earlier versions of a game even in cart days. I am pretty sure all speedrunners know that any exploits found in a moderm games launch month may not exist forever
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Nov 17, 2021 18:23
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Look leaving the characterization of the size of the speed running community (which I still maintain is pretty niche) my point is that patching out serious glitches that have a large effect on gameplay fiveish weeks post release is probably what we want developers to do. That’s especially true if, as the developer maintains, there is substantial probability of the glitch being triggered without intention.
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Nov 17, 2021 18:30
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ImpAtom posted:Developers have always patched bugs when possible. It is the reason you have some runs done on earlier versions of a game even in cart days. I am pretty sure all speedrunners know that any exploits found in a moderm games launch month may not exist forever I'm also not sure what the size of the glitch community has to do with anything here since they should be expecting this.
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Nov 17, 2021 19:20
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ExcessBLarg! posted:I'm also not sure what the size of the glitch community has to do with anything here since they should be expecting this. Well, if the glitch community were bigger, the case for not patching bugs would generally be stronger. Although I would say it would have to be a lot bigger to justify not patching serious bugs that can be triggered by casual players by accident. But, what if video game culture in general was such that a solid majority of players could be expected to participate in speed running, and speed running a accounted for a much larger portion of total game play from the very beginning of a product’s life? I would say that the bar for fixing bugs, wherever it is now, would justifiably be somewhere else. Wouldn’t you?
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Nov 17, 2021 20:24
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i'm so confused at what is even being argued anymore
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Nov 17, 2021 20:25
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Ogmius815 posted:Although I would say it would have to be a lot bigger to justify not patching serious bugs that can be triggered by casual players by accident. Ogmius815 posted:But, what if video game culture in general was such that a solid majority of players could be expected to participate in speed running, and speed running a accounted for a much larger portion of total game play from the very beginning of a product’s life? I would say that the bar for fixing bugs, wherever it is now, would justifiably be somewhere else. Wouldn’t you?
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Nov 17, 2021 20:47
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Your Computer posted:i'm so confused at what is even being argued anymore Looks to me like people aren't arguing, and it was actually just one poster that got upset for some reason.
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Nov 17, 2021 21:16
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ExcessBLarg! posted:Bugs that causal players could conceivably encounter that would hamper their experience should be patched. Glitch-running is fun and all, but glitch runners aren't the target audience for games and they know this. Yes, agreed. quote:The idea of not patching inconsequential bugs for the sake of speedrunning is still pretty novel. I think in some world where you'd expect a game's sales to be an even 50/50 split among casual players and speedrunners that you might want to accommodate the latter by having a "behavior profile" mechanism that would allow speedrunners to (re)enable older/prepatch behavior but still fix bugs that affect casual play by default. I guess that’s a more elegant solution in some ways. Mostly I just thought it was an interesting thought experiment. It’s well understood by developers that the difference between a bug and a feature is normative. My point was that there’s probably some critical mass of speed running participation (although I think it would have to be much, much greater participation than what actually exists factually) beyond which that line shifts.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:27
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On that topic, I've seen people give lists for intended-skip runs that put Speed Booster before Kraid. As far as I know SB requires one diffusion block at the pontoon platforms, is there a non-glitch way around that or was whoever wrote that down mistaken?
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Nov 18, 2021 01:25
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Bruceski posted:On that topic, I've seen people give lists for intended-skip runs that put Speed Booster before Kraid. As far as I know SB requires one diffusion block at the pontoon platforms, is there a non-glitch way around that or was whoever wrote that down mistaken? If "people" here is me, that might well just be me forgetting about the one diffusion block.
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Nov 18, 2021 02:14
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Bruceski posted:On that topic, I've seen people give lists for intended-skip runs that put Speed Booster before Kraid. As far as I know SB requires one diffusion block at the pontoon platforms, is there a non-glitch way around that or was whoever wrote that down mistaken? Supposedly it's possible (seen video proof) although only just to hit the explosion blob without diffusion using pseudo waves. IIRC nothing else stands in your way after that.
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Nov 18, 2021 04:42
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On the one hand, it's too bad that invincibility got patched out because suitless was fun along with bullying cross boss and doublebots, on the other hand, now no one can use it to beat my hard 0% time  And, at least camera lock is still in, so we can still spend a few minutes looking at the same screen while Samus adventures over that way to get really early screw attack. I still think most of the 'speed tech' was found by QA and they decided not to patch it out, maybe even adjusted things so certain routes would be possible  Also, I think you can skip kraid altogether using pseudowaves? Not entirely dev intended seeming, and a few of the psuedo wave shots get a lot harder without diffusion beam.
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Nov 18, 2021 04:56
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Glitch speedruns and more glitchless speedruns are both cool and good and both deserve to exist. I tend to personally prefer glitchless speedruns (or at least No Major Glitches type categories if a speedrun can be extremely broken in two), but I think it’s stupid as hell to assume that both avenues of speed running can’t both coexist
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Nov 18, 2021 22:43
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I just wish that, in the age when games are playtested after being released, you could choose which patch to play.
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Nov 18, 2021 23:43
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I Am Just a Box posted:If "people" here is me, that might well just be me forgetting about the one diffusion block. I've seen it elsewhere as well, I wasn't trying to call anyone out. That block's really easy to overlook.
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Nov 18, 2021 23:58
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XavierGenisi posted:Glitch speedruns and more glitchless speedruns are both cool and good and both deserve to exist. I tend to personally prefer glitchless speedruns (or at least No Major Glitches type categories if a speedrun can be extremely broken in two), but I think it’s stupid as hell to assume that both avenues of speed running can’t both coexist For sure, it’s just that I think Glitchless speed runs can still maintain some kind of communicable appeal to non speed runners and non gamers. Glitch speed runs are a subset of a subset of a subset, and those runs don’t draw anywhere near the same kind of attention that the more recognizable games being played very quickly do.
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Nov 19, 2021 06:58
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I defeated the big clam thing and I didn’t even get an upgrade. Very cranky.
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Nov 20, 2021 19:48
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I finished kraid, ran around for a while. The last upgrade I picked up the speed boost. After finding some speed doors that opened up new areas that are just blocked off I'm at a total loss of where to go. been running around for probably an hour with no progress.
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Nov 20, 2021 22:19
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veni veni veni posted:I finished kraid, ran around for a while. The last upgrade I picked up the speed boost. After finding some speed doors that opened up new areas that are just blocked off I'm at a total loss of where to go. been running around for probably an hour with no progress. You can select an interactable block on your map, speed booster blocks for example, and it'll highlight other such blocks. Try checking the EMMI area in artaria
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Nov 20, 2021 22:34
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Will do. Thanks.
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Nov 20, 2021 23:13
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Just beat it, 100% run, definitely agree it's a good, sometimes great game but it didn't blow me away. It certainly satisfied the metroid itch Stray thoughts - hated the EMMIs. Felt like forcing us to run through these areas was against the exploration aspect of the series. Once you die to them once all the tension is gone and they just become a tedious obstacle. -gently caress shinespark puzzles forever. The speed booster is almost never needed for actual progression, just power up puzzles, and is always so much more difficult to execute than any other move. Tired of the power up in general -I pretty much never used the cloak or dash. The cloak rarely saved me in EMMI land because half the time they'd still walk through my hiding spot -running through the map after you are fully upgraded and just screw attack everything remains one of the most satisfying things in games -I liked the difficulty, I never felt overwhelmed but still had to execute. -definitely a repeated boss fight problem -this might be my favorite depiction of Samus. She gives no fucks and just brutalizes everything. -the fusion influence was strong -the atmosphere was lacking, a couple music tracks were good and a couple areas were nice, but they should have pushed it much further, the areas were barely distinct -bring the scanner power back in all future games, being able to scan every room for hidden blocks was great Febreeze fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Nov 21, 2021 |
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Nov 21, 2021 00:11
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Space Adventure Samus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGwWpbHLcXU
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Nov 21, 2021 00:47
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Febreeze posted:Just beat it, 100% run, definitely agree it's a good, sometimes great game but it didn't blow me away. It certainly satisfied the metroid itch Don't agree on EMMI and dash, the rest  (though I enjoyed most of the shinespark puzzles, but definitely not all
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Nov 21, 2021 00:52
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Just beat this game. Man. The final boss sucked rear end. If this game actually had health bars for the bosses, and maybe had less simplistic and repetitive attack patterns, there would be a lot more tension in the boss fights and you'd get a better idea on how to actually fight effectively. I finished the game and I have no idea of the relative strengths of each of the weapons. Is the charge shot as strong as a missile? How weak is a regular beam attack? The storm missiles take three shots of missile ammo, how strong are they compared to three missiles individually? Since you never know how much damage you're dealing to a boss, or how much health is left, it feels like all you're really doing in the boss fights is just dodging, waiting for counter prompts, and generally waiting until the fight ends. I especially found this annoying in the twin robot soldier fights where I was just running around in a circle shooting these things and seeing no results. First time I fought them, until one of them spontaneously exploded, I didn't even know whether I was dealing damage or not. Otherwise I think the game was mostly pretty good, certainly better than Samus Returns. EMMIs were stupid and didn't accomplish, uh, whatever it was they were supposed to do. But the EMMI segments were extremely short, so they didn't matter at all. I just ignored the EMMIs and ran through the rooms, most of the time it worked fine. The cloak was never useful. e: oh yeah I also thought the plot of this game was really confusing since I thought the Chozo were all gone, on account of everything they built being in ruins, but I guess not and this group of guys were around Casey Finnigan fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Nov 21, 2021 |
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Nov 21, 2021 06:38
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Yeah it's funny, pretty much everyone, including myself, kind of figured the chozo were extinct, but for the life of me I can't think of ever being told that in a game or otherwise. They were always referred to as an ancient race, but that doesn't necessarily mean extinct. And they were certainly around within Samus' lifetime, so it's not like an Alien space jockey situation. Furthermore, in Super Metroid, when you get to the fat baby metroid's area there are a bunch of desiccated creatures in there, including a chozo, so you know the baby ate him recently. Tons of reasons not to think they were extinct but it was still the prevailing notion
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Nov 21, 2021 07:50
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WHY BONER NOW posted:Furthermore, in Super Metroid, when you get to the fat baby metroid's area there are a bunch of desiccated creatures in there, including a chozo, so you know the baby ate him recently. That's a robot, though.
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Nov 21, 2021 08:46
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WHY BONER NOW posted:Yeah it's funny, pretty much everyone, including myself, kind of figured the chozo were extinct, but for the life of me I can't think of ever being told that in a game or otherwise. I think we get that idea from Metroid Prime? The Chozo are definitely extinct on that planet.
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Nov 21, 2021 09:03
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Casey Finnigan posted:Just beat this game. Man. The final boss sucked rear end. Beams are universally weaker than missiles except for a few edge cases: with all the beam upgrades, if the enemy can take damage from the regular beams, then mashing the regular beams technically has the highest DPS. The regular missiles deal 100 damage, the super/ice missiles deal 300 damage, and each single lock on of storm missiles shoots 3 missiles each dealing 100 damage, however it not only ignores invincibility frames and electricity, but you're capable of moving around and avoiding things after you've pressed the button to fire once as opposed to sitting still and firing super/ice missiles, and locking on with all 5 reticles will deal 1500 damage in less time than it takes to fire super/ice missiles 5 times. Thus storm missiles are basically your best damage option against bosses.
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Nov 21, 2021 09:13
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Kassad posted:I think we get that idea from Metroid Prime? The Chozo are definitely extinct on that planet. I think the other part of it is like, in every planet you run into chozo statues in chozo ruins with upgrades for your advanced (presumed) one-of-a-kind powersuit. It kinda hits all the "lost technology from a long extinct race" buttons without any of that being true. If I had to guess I'd say they're more like space elves than anything, highly advanced and secretive.
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Nov 21, 2021 09:25
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