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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Well this thread's been dead for a little while,
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Nov 21, 2021 05:39
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BabyFur Denny posted:One of those incidents where it's difficult to empathize with either side I heard this enough times about the Syrian civil war to be sussed out by it
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Nov 21, 2021 06:03
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:I heard this enough times about the Syrian civil war to be sussed out by it Yeah but this time it's about the Dutch
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Nov 21, 2021 06:29
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Cops shouldn't do warning shots. Either shoot to kill or don't shoot at all. Sure, there are protestors that I'd be more sad about them shooting, but it's not like I expect them to be more restrained against people protesting in favor of something good.
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Nov 21, 2021 08:43
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Cops shouldn't do warning shots. Either shoot to kill or don't shoot at all. Sure, there are protestors that I'd be more sad about them shooting, but it's not like I expect them to be more restrained against people protesting in favor of something good. I believe this is American gun dogma. Official policy in Turkey is to fire warning shots, and Turkish police kill far fewer people than American ones. I’d rather take my chances with the Turks.
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Nov 21, 2021 09:29
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mawarannahr posted:Official policy in Turkey is to fire warning shots, and Turkish police kill far fewer people than American ones. I’d rather take my chances with the Turks. Why does Constantinople say that works?
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Nov 21, 2021 09:33
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Cops shouldn't do warning shots. Either shoot to kill or don't shoot at all. Sure, there are protestors that I'd be more sad about them shooting, but it's not like I expect them to be more restrained against people protesting in favor of something good. Either don't shoot at all or shoot to wound. And don't shoot at all. Also disband the police.
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Nov 21, 2021 09:38
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Osmosisch posted:Why does Constantinople say that works? Istanbul, not Costantinople. And that's no one's business but the Turks'.
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Nov 21, 2021 09:38
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Cops shouldn't do warning shots. Either shoot to kill or don't shoot at all. Sure, there are protestors that I'd be more sad about them shooting, but it's not like I expect them to be more restrained against people protesting in favor of something good.
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Nov 21, 2021 09:40
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Wtf is going on in this thread
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Nov 21, 2021 09:52
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Bel Shazar posted:Either don't shoot at all or shoot to wound. And don't shoot at all. Also disband the police. I believe this is also part of the guidance Turkish police are expected to follow — shooting in the legs is advised over shooting the torso or head. Hollywood and web forums seem to have planted this meme that shooting should always be to kill. The famously humane Turkish police is kinder than Americans, lmao.
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Nov 21, 2021 09:52
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Police killings are very rare in the Netherlands, especially gun killings and especially especially at protests. I wasn't in Rotterdam during the protests, but the protesters much have been going feral for the authorities to escalate to lethal force. First a far-right member of our House of Representatives cryptically threatens another with lynching and now this. It's been a wearying week in the Netherlands.
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Nov 21, 2021 09:56
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AndreTheGiantBoned posted:Wtf is going on in this thread It's Turkish delight on a moonlit night.
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Nov 21, 2021 09:57
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mawarannahr posted:I believe this is American gun dogma. Official policy in Turkey is to fire warning shots, and Turkish police kill far fewer people than American ones. I’d rather take my chances with the Turks. Yeah, never ever take the standard operation protocol of US police force as the golden standard of police work. It's like you were following the insights of a German death camp commandant as a hotel manager.
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Nov 21, 2021 10:52
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For American cops, killing people is not a bug, it's a feature.
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Nov 21, 2021 10:57
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mawarannahr posted:I believe this is American gun dogma. Official policy in Turkey is to fire warning shots, and Turkish police kill far fewer people than American ones. I’d rather take my chances with the Turks. 1. Shoot to kill 2. Shoot if you feel like it The real problem is the second part. The more European (or non-American in general?) dogma of: 1. Do warning shots 2. Shoot only when you can actually justify the shot Is obviously far better, but I'm not sure it's ideal. It should certainly be emphasized that any kind of firing a gun can be fatal, and often debilitating when not. Maybe I just don't like the term "warning shots", because it implies that those shots aren't actually potentially dangerous.
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Nov 21, 2021 11:43
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If US cop shows are anything to go by (lol), they seem to train their cops to target for center of mass, which is basically code for "unload a few slugs into someone's chest cavity". This seems to have some very glaring problems associated with it, starting with the fact that reasons to do this procedure might include "had a comb in their hand and looked dark-skinned". It is possible to at least try to incapacitate someone without murdering them, though obviously this is sometimes tricky if it's already a shooting match Old West style. Finnish cops aren't unproblematic, if you haven't heard of the Jari Aarnio case, it's probably better if you don't google that, but it seems that Finnish cops have shot ten people to death since the year 2000, (apologies for weird language article) which is still bad of course but the number seems low, even accounting for our low population. All that said, shooting at protesters seems like a bad idea, though obviously no one wants to get pepper sprayed in the face either. But if I had to choose between getting pepper sprayed, or having a cop trying to shoot at me, I think I'd pick the spray.
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Nov 21, 2021 11:51
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When there was a knife attacker in Finland who stabbed a bunch of people in name of Allah, police got there and popped one shot into his leg and arrested him (& started giving first aid) Is aiming at lower limbs safe? Of course not. Is it safer than aiming at the middle of the body? Very much yes. Is firing warning shots safer than aiming at a crowd? Hell yes. I have a feeling that we have debated this with A Buttery Pastry before and nothing has changed.
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Nov 21, 2021 12:08
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The Rotterdam stuff is a pretty horrifying escalation to see. I'm sure the anti-vaxxers were being nutty as usual, but anyone 18 months ago saying police forces in Western Europe would be using live fire ammunition on protestors would have been branded a complete tinfoil hat nut. Thats really not something that should happening in liberal democracies. Rappaport posted:If US cop shows are anything to go by (lol), they seem to train their cops to target for center of mass, which is basically code for "unload a few slugs into someone's chest cavity". This seems to have some very glaring problems associated with it, starting with the fact that reasons to do this procedure might include "had a comb in their hand and looked dark-skinned". It is possible to at least try to incapacitate someone without murdering them The idea that you can selectively aim at body parts on a moving, possibly dangerous, target is only ever spouted by people who've spent too much time playing Call of Duty. In the real world hitting any moving target is hard, people are trained to aim for the center of mass because its the easiest thing to aim for. American police are maniacs because their response to many problems that would be de-escalated by other police forces is to pull out their guns and start firing away, not because of where on the body they're aiming their guns.
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Nov 21, 2021 12:10
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Blut posted:The idea that you can selectively aim at body parts on a moving, possibly dangerous, target is only ever spouted by people who've spent too much time playing Call of Duty. In the real world hitting any moving target is hard, people are trained to aim for the center of mass because its the easiest thing to aim for. American police are maniacs because their response to many problems that would be de-escalated by other police forces is to pull out their guns and start firing away, not because of where on the body they're aiming their guns. I guess the finnish police must be very good at cod
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Nov 21, 2021 12:25
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Blut posted:The idea that you can selectively aim at body parts on a moving, possibly dangerous, target is only ever spouted by people who've spent too much time playing Call of Duty. In the real world hitting any moving target is hard, people are trained to aim for the center of mass because its the easiest thing to aim for. American police are maniacs because their response to many problems that would be de-escalated by other police forces is to pull out their guns and start firing away, not because of where on the body they're aiming their guns. That's fair enough, I've never fired a gun so I have to rely on what I've read. In the cases I cited earlier, a lot of the time the cops just had to basically spray and pray because the situation was already pretty dire. But if you're "just" confronting someone, is it really not possible to at least try to aim towards something that has less vital organs in it than the chest? I realize a person can bleed out pretty quickly if you hit the right bits on the legs, etc., so it's by no means a fun situation for anyone. To make it clear, I would prefer if cops didn't need to operate fire-arms, I'm not saying I want anyone shot in the legs or arms either.
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Nov 21, 2021 12:29
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Mikl posted:Istanbul, not Costantinople. 
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Nov 21, 2021 12:29
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Blut posted:
And yet German cops often use leg shots to subdue armed targets instead of shooting center mass. Turns out real life differs from the American cop propaganda you love spouting so much.
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Nov 21, 2021 12:33
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I feel that "direct shots" are different than "warning shots", reuters, unless policy equates both which hmmmm....
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Nov 21, 2021 12:34
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:I feel that "direct shots" are different than "warning shots", reuters, unless policy equates both which hmmmm.... The police in Rotterdam used both warning shots and shots aimed at people. Though any use of a firearm always leads to an investigation.
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Nov 21, 2021 12:37
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Blut posted:The idea that you can selectively aim at body parts on a moving, possibly dangerous, target is only ever spouted by people who've spent too much time playing Call of Duty. In the real world hitting any moving target is hard, people are trained to aim for the center of mass because its the easiest thing to aim for. American police are maniacs because their response to many problems that would be de-escalated by other police forces is to pull out their guns and start firing away, not because of where on the body they're aiming their guns. Do American police even get any training?   imho maybe you should look at the evidence before you say a word more?
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Nov 21, 2021 13:33
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Aiming for the legs is how you're supposed to use rubber bullets. Of course, American cops don't even do that. There's a reason 'abolish the police' is the slogan, because the American police as an institution are utterly irredeemable murderous fascists.
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Nov 21, 2021 14:15
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It looks like some parts of the Dutch anti-vaxx and corona-denier movements have actually been itching for escalations for over a year. The police violence is by no means a good thing, but I sometimes wonder what society can really do about a vocal minority that's increasingly being whipped into a frenzy over idiotic conspiracy theories and is prepared to risk/use violence to press their issues. And it's certainly just not in the Netherlands (see: the Capitol attack in the US).Antigravitas posted:Though any use of a firearm always leads to an investigation. Yeah, this too.
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Nov 21, 2021 14:19
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Nenonen posted:Is firing warning shots safer than aiming at a crowd? Hell yes. Nenonen posted:I have a feeling that we have debated this with A Buttery Pastry before and nothing has changed. Nenonen posted:Do American police even get any training?
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Nov 21, 2021 14:43
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I'll happily clarify my position as "Only shoot if you can justify someone potentially dying" rather than "Shoot to kill", since accepting that firing a weapon is always a risk is what I'm actually after. Basically, will it have been justified if all three of those people die? A good point of view
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Nov 21, 2021 14:56
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Antigravitas posted:And yet German cops often use leg shots to subdue armed targets instead of shooting center mass. Turns out real life differs from the American cop propaganda you love spouting so much. Dutch police also mostly shoots at legs when they shoot, which is still kind of rare, though becoming more frequent with every passing year. Americans will flat out refuse to believe that this is reality, but we can do better here in the EU thread.
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Nov 21, 2021 14:56
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Pope Hilarius II posted:It looks like some parts of the Dutch anti-vaxx and corona-denier movements have actually been itching for escalations for over a year. The police violence is by no means a good thing, but I sometimes wonder what society can really do about a vocal minority that's increasingly being whipped into a frenzy over idiotic conspiracy theories and is prepared to risk/use violence to press their issues. And it's certainly just not in the Netherlands (see: the Capitol attack in the US). In Germany they're >50% Nazis (and 10% love to shake hands with Nazis, so hey ho):  And of course they have already murdered in cold blood and tried to storm parliament.
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Nov 21, 2021 14:58
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Antigravitas posted:In Germany they're >50% Nazis (and 10% love to shake hands with Nazis, so hey ho): In NL 70-90% of the anti-vax crowd are Nazi's at the least. Like there was literally a big poll published about this 3 days ago.
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Nov 21, 2021 15:11
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Antigravitas posted:In Germany they're >50% Nazis (and 10% love to shake hands with Nazis, so hey ho):
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Nov 21, 2021 15:22
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I thought you were talking about the cops before the part about storming parliament. There are plenty of Nazis within the ranks of the German police, but not quite to that extend.
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Nov 21, 2021 16:22
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Orange Devil posted:In NL 70-90% of the anti-vax crowd are Nazi's at the least. Like there was literally a big poll published about this 3 days ago. Could you share a link to that poll? Cursory Google searches proved fruitless for me.
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Nov 21, 2021 18:25
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Antigravitas posted:And yet German cops often use leg shots to subdue armed targets instead of shooting center mass. Turns out real life differs from the American cop propaganda you love spouting so much. Andrast posted:I guess the finnish police must be very good at cod Individual cops obviously might get lucky and succeed in shooting someone in the leg. But its still not the official policy of any police forces to aim for limbs in Europe that I've seen information on, for obvious practicality reasons. Got some sources for Finland or Germany? The big (positive) difference in official operating procedure in the EU is cops in most countries are trained that if you need to pull a gun, its in a life or death situation and you absolutely have to. So in that situation you aim to have the highest odds of disabling the target. But before it escalates to that situation they actually use de-escalation procedures, or less-lethal methods. In the US they're far, far more likely to just go straight to pointing a gun at someone (and probably shooting them).
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Nov 21, 2021 18:36
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It flows naturally from the Verhältnismäßigkeitsgrundsatz (Principle of Proportionality). Since a lot of it is state based and horribly fragmented and hard to access I'll just quote from an old version of the "Bekanntmachung des Bayerischen Staatsministeriums des Innern über den Vollzug des Polizeiaufgabengesetzes", i.e. the Bavarian regulations:quote:Regarding Art. 66 (General regulations for the use of firearms) (That's machine translated because I'm not going to do a proper translation of Behördendeutsch to German to English over an Internet argument)
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Nov 21, 2021 19:30
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JordanKai posted:Could you share a link to that poll? Cursory Google searches proved fruitless for me. https://www.bndestem.nl/binnenland/ruzie-en-eenzaamheid-plagen-ongevaccineerden-grote-groepen-voelen-zich-heel-slecht~accbba11/
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Nov 21, 2021 19:39
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AndreTheGiantBoned posted:Wtf is going on in this thread This thread is never not weird
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Nov 21, 2021 19:51
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