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Consumables are stupid and estus vs. grass is a perfect example. I seriously do not get why Bloodborne went back on that system.
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Nov 20, 2021 14:19
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Woolie's anti-consumable stance isn't about estus vs vials/grass though, it's universal in everything. Like that really annoying poo poo he does every time items in character action games come up (Pat also does it in that case, mind).
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Nov 20, 2021 15:04
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In the character action games they prefer, items are a way for bad players to get through to the end so they don't give up. Once you've got a bit of practice under your belt, you shouldn't need healing items in DMC.
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Nov 20, 2021 15:16
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No, I'm just saying Estus/Grass is an encapsulation of that problem. Consumables create a weird sort of cost valuation in people's minds. Some are better with it, some are worse with it. I think a lot of games can design around it but doing more stuff like estus, or creating tradeoff systems. (An example I saw was dealing with BotW's breaking weapons by having broken weapons give you something you can later use to make better, more permanent weapons, or something.) It also doesn't help Woolie and Pat play games that "punish" you for using consumables. That said, I was dying watching Woolie avoid using the "revives a downed party member" item in Deltarune because other healing were also bringing characters up, but that was more of a virtue of /just try it./ Oxyclean fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 15:17
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It's like that gag of "we taught him wrong, as a prank" except that person ended up becoming a master by virtue of being there and that was Pat, so now Reggie is dealing with the second generation teacher of that.
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Nov 20, 2021 15:27
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I totally also having the same mind goblin, especially in Soulsborne because so many of the consumables aren't easy to get more of, so I just never use stuff like resins etc. I just end up finishing the games with an inventory full of stuff I never used.
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Nov 20, 2021 17:24
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Souls consumables aren't very useful after the first 3 hours of the games, and Reggie already has Pryromancy Fireballs for infinite Firebombs, so who gives a poo poo?
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Nov 20, 2021 18:44
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Estus is a consumable. They're all the same poo poo just use your items you weirdos.
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Nov 20, 2021 18:50
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Estus is a consumable. I feel like this is willfully not understanding what's happening psychologically. Almost no-one would have problems with consumables if they all worked like estus. Knowing you have X uses of something, and will get them back at a checkpoint or on death means you can safely use them without feeling like they are being wasted. Estus is basically "use it or lose it" - you're better running out of estus and dying then dying with a bunch of sips left. The same isn't really true for healing gems or blood vials. Burn 20 and still lose to the boss? Well now you're just going to have a harder time in the future. I can get through a souls game without using the pine tars and stamina grass. No point relying on them only to run out, better to just find a strategy that doesn't need them.
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Nov 20, 2021 19:07
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Oxyclean posted:I feel like this is willfully not understanding what's happening psychologically. I understand It's still stupid. Just use the items. You're acting like just using them as a buff or to get through poo poo is 'relying' on them when no you can just be not weird about it and use it as a nice boost to make things easier for a bit. Or to get a little bump in progress with poo poo like the consumable soul items. If that bit runs out you gotta figure something else out. It's why there's so many of these weird things in souls games. You got like 20 different types of temp boosts to figure something else, and if you can't then just brute force it like you would if you were in a "Never Use ITems" mindset in the first place. In the end it doesn't really change anything other than giving you more options to figure out a fight if you want to use them. They game doesn't give out poo poo as drops or as rewards for exploring for you to not use them. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 19:10
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Also, it can be pretty hard to evaluate the value of consumables when you cannot easily restock on them too, and in Souls games it can also be hard to know exactly how powerful a certain item is without using it, so...
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Nov 20, 2021 19:19
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I mean, it's simple as people get hung up cause it's literally a psychological hurdle. "I might need this later / this could be more helpful later" or stuff like in an RPG using healing items vs. going to a cheaper or free source of healing. I recall this Ceave video kind of touching on some of these psychological aspects, and how it kind of ties into people being, yeah, irrational. But it's something design can work around, and I think estus is a great example of that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRIPhCOW5so e: Like, one of his anecdotes is about not using status cures in pokemon games over just going to the pokemon center. I don't really have that problem, largely because I know my pokedollars don't have a ton of better uses. In souls, you souls generally have "better" uses then consumables, unless you're looking to dump souls and don't have enough for a levelup. But I also think souls has the problem of simpler strategies often being the better ones - at least for a fresh player, the less loving around they're doing with swapping weapons and items, the less liable they are to make mistakes. Which is another part of why I rarely bother with anything that isn't status curing items, or maybe slapping on a resin before a boss (that I was told it would help on.) Oxyclean fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 19:23
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Oxyclean posted:I mean, it's simple as people get hung up cause it's literally a psychological hurdle. "I might need this later / this could be more helpful later" or stuff like in an RPG using healing items vs. going to a cheaper or free source of healing. id simply use the items but im made different
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Nov 20, 2021 20:04
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*blade voice* Use it
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Nov 20, 2021 20:28
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You HAVE to save those items, what if you need them later?
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Nov 20, 2021 20:30
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I don't have full-on brain worms, but I try to avoid consumables when it makes sense. Then last year I played Kingdom Hearts 1 for the first time and could feel how it was designed to make anyone in their formative years who already thought like that be psychologically damaged on consumables for life.
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Nov 20, 2021 20:57
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Depths posted:You HAVE to save those items, what if you need them later? Later isn't real. It'll only ever be now.
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Nov 20, 2021 21:05
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I like Path of Exile as an example of people holding on to consumables when it's really not beneficial to them because the game instills a hoarder mentality on you. You can ALWAYS make your money back if you juice your endgame maps with the plethora of items that increase item quality/quantity/monster density, but wouldn't it be better to use them in the future when you're doing better maps? Usually it's not, it just slows down your progression, but you're still wary to use them and a lot of players complain they're not making currency when they have a stash full of those items. It's a hard thing to get over psychologically and a lot of games make that into actual gameplay features, like survival horror games, where wasting your high-power ammo and healing items can actually gently caress you over. My first playthrough of Code Veronica died an early death because I wasted all my explosive bolts and couldn't deal with the A1 final boss.
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Nov 20, 2021 21:07
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Resource management is just another skill and most vocal people online are bad at games.
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Nov 20, 2021 21:16
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Motto posted:Resource management is just another skill and most vocal people online are bad at games. Sure, but it's something that changes from game to game too, right? Plus we're talking about Souls, a series that's really unclear about how you should manage resources and people can't even agree on how impactful their use can be i guess the true lesson here is souls fans are the worst
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Nov 20, 2021 21:51
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i haven't used an elixir in the last 25 years and im not going to start now
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Nov 20, 2021 21:58
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a cartoon duck posted:i haven't used an elixir in the last 25 years and im not going to start now If I need to heal and I have less than 75% MP I prioritize Elixirs.
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Nov 20, 2021 22:28
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The main difference between elixirs and divine blessings is that the amount of damage it takes for an elixir to be worthwhile represents like a minute+ of the boss beating on a character. In DS you can drink that blessing and ten seconds later one attack puts you back where you started. And sure it cures poison and bleeding and curse but hardly any bosses actually use any of those, and you'll never need the heal against regular enemies. I can't think of any bosses that inflict bleed off the top of my head.
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Nov 20, 2021 22:33
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I never use buff items because I have some degree of weirding out by being on the clock with it, it's also why korean MMOs often completely put me off, if you're gonna give me some kind of enchant or random thing like that, let me just slap the poo poo on and then it can go away when I put a new one on, I don't have the wherewithal for this 25 minute poo poo.
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Nov 20, 2021 22:58
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i use ALL my items in soulsborne games by selling them for souls
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Nov 20, 2021 23:13
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my issue with using a consumable, particularly in a soulslike game, is you can use the item and still fail before hitting whatever next checkpoint is and it's just gone forever and now you are locked into doing the run again without the item anyway, so you might as well save it. If an item is buyable I have no problem stocking up + using them as needed, but if its some random poo poo I dont know if I'll ever see another, it might as well not exist
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Nov 20, 2021 23:32
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End of session 4 in Dokapon has some powerful "omikron they can't find the door" energy  The only reason I know Woolie won't pull out a knife in session 5 of Dokapon is because there are more videos MorningMoon fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Nov 21, 2021 |
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Nov 21, 2021 01:29
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Indecisive posted:my issue with using a consumable, particularly in a soulslike game, is you can use the item and still fail before hitting whatever next checkpoint is and it's just gone forever and now you are locked into doing the run again without the item anyway, so you might as well save it. You've got the absolute wrong conclusion to it. You might as well use it cause it might help. If you gently caress up with then you'll have to fall back to doing it raw.
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Nov 21, 2021 03:12
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But if you can kill the boss without it, then using it and failing was even more of a waste.
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Nov 21, 2021 06:14
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Dabir posted:But if you can kill the boss without it, then using it and failing was even more of a waste. Again, it's not more of a waste then never using it. Using it and failing and never using it cause you might need it have the same ending: You don't succeed while using it. So you might as well use it to get whatever bonus you can so that maybe it can help clear poo poo. Delete these mind goblins, consume consumables.
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Nov 21, 2021 06:51
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But I might need it for the next boss
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Nov 21, 2021 07:01
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I don't use weapons or spend any money in case I need them for another boss.
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Nov 21, 2021 07:15
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I don't cum because I might need that seamen later.
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Nov 21, 2021 08:22
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I don't think I have ever used a divine blessing well in any dark souls. Not because I have to save consumables but because I don't remember to equip them for the hard parts since they are so rare
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Nov 21, 2021 08:30
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miniscule12 posted:I don't cum because I might need that seamen later. If you beat a boss without cumming that just proves cumming is a waste.
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Nov 21, 2021 08:31
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:If you beat a boss without cumming that just proves cumming is a waste. and thus, through dialectics, we arrive at the correct opinion: not using consumables makes you a dark souls volcel. impossibly powerful
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Nov 21, 2021 10:32
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Varinn posted:and thus, through dialectics, we arrive at the correct opinion: not using consumables makes you a dark souls volcel. impossibly powerful Dark souls is a franchise about how being VolCel only perpetuates the hosed up nature of society. Gwyn make the dark sigil to keep all the darkness in humanity from coming out and then some idiot human comes along and rekindles the flame so that everything stays locked up. You gotta end this age of fire to start an age of humanity (Cumming).
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Nov 21, 2021 18:01
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How did we get here
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Nov 21, 2021 18:08
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This somehow may be on topic. Also, gently caress man, Aldia's VA was so cool. A Sometimes Food fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Nov 21, 2021 |
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Nov 21, 2021 19:16
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Was there a patch that lots of Dark Souls 1 players don't know about, or do Woolie, Reggie, and I all have crazy luck? Every time I've fought an early black knight, I've gotten something off of them, be it halberd/sword/shield, so all the remarks about crazy drops off of them are weird to me. I think I've only had one occasion where the Burg/Asylum BKs didn't drop any equipment in my countless playthroughs.
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Nov 22, 2021 03:34
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