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SiKboy posted:"the image of an angel becomes an angel" which is an ambigious statement that is poorly defined at best (what if you copy a video cassette that has a recording of an angel on it? If you had access to a DVD pressing factory could you run off a couple of million angels? what if you streamed an angel on twitch?), Counterpoint: this sort of thing is far more interesting and thought-provoking than sending people back in time and this is what Angel stories should be about. Hell yeah I want somebody streaming an Angel on twitch, what happens then?
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Nov 22, 2021 00:16
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I thought the idea was that a nearby angel could possess the image and use it to teleport itself to a new place, not that it made a new one? What could the Division even offer the angels to get them to co-operate? In Doom Coalition it was literally 'universe is ending, get on board if you want to survive'. What leverage would they have normally?
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Nov 22, 2021 00:27
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The flaming Angel was cool in a stupid stupid way I think. As soon as Peggy said the Angels agreed to leave her be, I knew she was the old lady, because why else did they zap everyone they came across but her? And I completely missed that Vinder is Grey Worm. (To be fair, I've blocked out pretty much everything about his arc in GoT because it was also pants, as they say. Also now he has hair and emotions, and I guess testicles so that is a big departure!) Professor Jericho was cool. Overall I have severe doubts that this is going to stick the landing, but for a few brief moments in the first weeks I had hope.
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Nov 22, 2021 01:04
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That episode was pretty alright but I think that'll do me for Angels for quite a while. Honestly thought it would've been stronger if the Flux stuff wasn't shoving its way back in, you could almost think it would be a relatively alright isolated two parter, next episode's got potential.
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Nov 22, 2021 01:10
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The Division is dumb as poo poo, and I've never liked the Angels from day one (because they're too spooky for me.)
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Nov 22, 2021 03:30
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Jerusalem posted:Well that was a mess. It might have worked if they had just made it a story about the Doctor and companions in two time periods working together to try and solve the problem across time to stop the Angels, but instead it was peppered through with Vinder and Bel's storyline, the Division nonsense, and they directly contradicted or ignored their own "rules" about Angels constantly. I really wanted to like it and there were times it was very atmospheric or interesting, but that's definitely the absolute worst Angel story so far. Well, I thought that was brilliant, the Angels were genuinely scary, the dialogue was good, and the characters well-realized. The Angels observed a few new rules, but that’s happened every time we’ve met them, and this episode at least fixed the worst excesses of Moffat’s two-parter by explaining that the “image of an Angel is an Angel” thing requires a lot of effort/energy, so they won’t do it often and refugees like the three in Blink wouldn’t do it at all. I have also figure out The Division, although precisely what it entails I couldn’t say. The give-away was the hostage-taking Angel calling it, simply, “Division.” This whole sequence is concerned with a conflict or power struggle between Time and Space, yes? “Division” isn’t the name of the organization, it’s the goal of it. The Division wants to divide Time and Space. No idea what that means because the idea is rather mad. At the least, it suggests that Chibnall had all this planned at the start of his run: the Timeless Child, the Division, Space and Time. Odds are good that when it all gets explained, it won’t make much sense, but it is cleverer than “the CIA just got a different name”. The one blessing (?) with Chibnall is he’ll usually overexplain instead of doing the Moffat “you want to work out the details of what happened? Don’t be silly, mate, I’m already off on the next adventure and you’re just sad dwelling on the past.”
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Nov 22, 2021 03:32
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 I hate Twitter.
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Nov 22, 2021 04:58
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SiKboy posted:Is that an inbetweener? (also Yaz can look while Dan fixes the torch because its BEING TOTALLY UNOBSERVED THAT AFFECTS THE ANGELS but I dont want to go on about it...) Yes, but if it goes completely dark, when even if you're looking you can't see them... Yes, eyeblinks are fast, but the Angels are faster - that's part of why they're a scary monster  Loved this episode
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Nov 22, 2021 04:59
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Angel stories are tough because they do have these very hard/fast rules that other monsters don't. You can run away from a Dalek or duck laser shots from a Cyberman but an Angel *will* catch you if you look away so the writer has to work harder to contrive ways out of that situation. (Though yeah, nobody's tried blinking one eye at a time. I remember Colin Baker bringing that up at a panel.) I liked the story. It's hurt a bit by the Flux thing because they had to leave a lot of things in the air (why are the Angels so interested in the Division?), but it was tense and atmospheric and has a very nice cliffhanger (albeit one that BBC America's commercial breaks kinda stepped on.)
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Nov 22, 2021 05:38
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Winking helps but it still doesn't satisfy your brain's need to blink, at least for me.
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Nov 22, 2021 05:45
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I guess that had a couple of good ideas (I liked the Angels ringing the doorbell) but anything good about it was ruined by being part of this stupid storyline. I just want this Division nonsense to end, but it won't until more unnecessary stupid secrets of the Doctor's past are revealed. At this point I'd be kind of surprised if Bel's baby wasn't the Doctor. God, Chibnall sucks. I'd rather watch a whole series written by Pip & Jane Baker than him.
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Nov 22, 2021 06:10
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Well, that was certainly an ending. Also, for those that missed it. The credits start up and then theres more show before the credits cut back in.
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Nov 22, 2021 06:54
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Action Jacktion posted:I'd rather watch a whole series written by Pip & Jane Baker than him. Well now hang on a second let's not say things we can't take back!
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Nov 22, 2021 08:28
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Chibnall is smashing it out the park. Best season with Whittaker so far. More of this please sir!
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Nov 22, 2021 12:02
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gschmidl posted:The angels have always been loving garbage. You can blink with one eye at a time, for gently caress's sake. Didn't the the guy in Blink do the one eye at a time thing? Jerusalem posted:I forgot all about Angel Bob too! Still pants, but at least it has precedent (....pants precedent?) Ehhh I think you're injecting your own interpretation of things here. In Blink Sally's best friend had apparently died of old age years beforehand.
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Nov 22, 2021 12:05
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Goddamn, the Angels are a boring villain. This episode used the time travel thing well, but the rest of it is kind of a mess and the "dont blink" thing isn't scary the tenth time around. The 180 that The Time of Angels did on them, i.e. that they're suddenly sapient beings with goals and motivations, kind of sucks. They were initially kind of crocodilian, unthinking predators without much motivation. You can't easily give them agency or character given that they're a bunch of styrofoam props. NuWho, please invent another cool alien villain!
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Nov 22, 2021 12:08
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Senor Tron posted:Ehhh I think you're injecting your own interpretation of things here. In Blink Sally's best friend had apparently died of old age years beforehand. You're right, the cop did die basically at around the same time he first met Sally, but I remembered her friend having died very recently but looking it back up she'd been dead 20 years before Sally got her letter.
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Nov 22, 2021 13:13
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The thing with the Weeping Angels for me is that they worked really well in Blink because that's a really tightly constructed story where every element is designed to fit with each other. They work in Blink because they're tailor-made for Blink, and they never really work in anything else because they're tailor-made for Blink. Seems like if you want to use the Angels in a story that's not Blink you're either forced to come up with new gimmicks or start bending the original rules, both of which undermine the point of using the Angels in the first place. They're an essential cog that makes the narrative machinery of Blink work very well, but when you remove them from the rest of it you're left with basically just their most basic modus operandi and visual design along with some catchphrases like "don't blink", just empty iconography and story mechanics devoid of purpose. I'm sure someone could come up with a way to tell another functional Weeping Angels story, but even then you would have to work backwards and tailor the story for their purposes to the extent that I don't know what the point of that kind of story could be beyond "another functional Weeping Angels story".
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Nov 22, 2021 14:23
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It could've been the Sandmen (remember those?), so let's at least count that blessing? And I say that as someone who hated Blink.
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Nov 22, 2021 14:39
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gschmidl posted:And I say that as someone who hated Blink. Here's my obligatory head-scratching at the notion that so many people (ITT, and elsewhere) said "Blink" was the episode they used to introduce people to DW, because why would you show a new viewer an episode of one-off characters that barely features the Doctor?  It's like showing someone "Mission to the Unknown" to try and get them into the classic series. (E: or rather it would be, if it wasn't a missing episode  )
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Nov 22, 2021 15:54
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Here's my obligatory head-scratching at the notion that so many people (ITT, and elsewhere) said "Blink" was the episode they used to introduce people to DW, because why would you show a new viewer an episode of one-off characters that barely features the Doctor? The argument such a person made to me is that it's an introduction to the setting and vibe of the show (debatable) where none of the story relies on any other episode, viewing, or knowledge of the show.
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Nov 22, 2021 16:02
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Here's my obligatory head-scratching at the notion that so many people (ITT, and elsewhere) said "Blink" was the episode they used to introduce people to DW, because why would you show a new viewer an episode of one-off characters that barely features the Doctor? It's the one with all the memes and people love memes.
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Nov 22, 2021 17:39
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Vinylshadow posted:Yes, but if it goes completely dark, when even if you're looking you can't see them... Yes, but there is no need for them to BOTH simultaneously stare wide eyed at the angel while dan tries to fix the torch without looking at it is my point. That was dumb as poo poo. My point is that as long as Yaz doesnt look away or blink dan can look down, fix the torch and then it wont be completely dark as they would then have a working torch. "Hey yaz, you dont blink for a minute while I try and fix this".
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Nov 22, 2021 17:58
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I think the Angels have magic torch-breaking powers now or something.
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Nov 22, 2021 18:14
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I think that even in their first appearances they were draining energy from light sources to make it dark
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Nov 22, 2021 18:22
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Ever since RTD threw in that reference to the Time Lords being aware of the Angels (or even having weaponised them), I’ve kind of wanted to see this kind of delving into their past and motivations, not going to lie.
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Nov 22, 2021 18:33
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SiKboy posted:Yes, but there is no need for them to BOTH simultaneously stare wide eyed at the angel while dan tries to fix the torch without looking at it is my point. That was dumb as poo poo. My point is that as long as Yaz doesnt look away or blink dan can look down, fix the torch and then it wont be completely dark as they would then have a working torch. "Hey yaz, you dont blink for a minute while I try and fix this". Since when have scared people ever made rational choices or had a clear head with which to think with? The horror genre would be a ghost town
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Nov 22, 2021 19:12
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Vinylshadow posted:Since when have scared people ever made rational choices or had a clear head with which to think with? No you're thinking of Under the Lake.
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Nov 22, 2021 19:47
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Vinylshadow posted:Since when have scared people ever made rational choices or had a clear head with which to think with? I used to think horror movie protagonists were stupid until *gestures around*
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Nov 22, 2021 20:00
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CommonShore posted:The argument such a person made to me is that it's an introduction to the setting and vibe of the show (debatable) where none of the story relies on any other episode, viewing, or knowledge of the show. I'm just wondering how many of those people subsequently went "where's Sally Sparrow" when they watched another episode, realized the show wasn't actually about her, and "nope"d the heck outta there. Especially if they got shown the episodes with "penis head Dalek" or "Gollum Doctor" right afterwards.
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Nov 22, 2021 20:01
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Maxwell Lord posted:Angel stories are tough because they do have these very hard/fast rules that other monsters don't. You can run away from a Dalek or duck laser shots from a Cyberman but an Angel *will* catch you if you look away so the writer has to work harder to contrive ways out of that situation. (Though yeah, nobody's tried blinking one eye at a time. I remember Colin Baker bringing that up at a panel.) The Angels are a combination of horror movie monsters and the Moffat fairy-tale season, so both call for a set of rules governing how they operate. But the rules don't make sense, never did, and keep changing in subsequent appearances, just like most horror movie monsters. Even the quantum lock mechanism coupled with the weeping posture makes no sense. The Angels are quantum locked when observed, meaning that they don't have to know they are being observed to get quantum locked. An Angel unexpectedly quantum locked wouldn't cover its eyes because it doesn't know that it needs to do so. More to the point, why would an Angel cover its eyes instead of closing them? Covering means your eyes are still open, someone could stick a mirror in your hands, etc; closing your eyes is also substantially faster than raising your hands (try it at home, kids!). The instant you're unlocked you can open your eyes again, navigate, and then shut them at the next available moment. But then they wouldn't be the "Weeping Angels" and the whole conceit falls apart. They prey on people by sending them back in time. That means that all Angel lore comes from the Angels' victims, recording warnings prior to being attacked by the Angels. Within the puzzle-box of Blink, maybe that's a stable or sustainable system. But if you get tossed 32 years into the past, why in the world wouldn't you write yourself a letter with explicit instructions on how to not get thrown into the past? And as we see, being hurled into the past doesn't mean you can't be alive "both times" at once: what happens if you meet yourself? And the biggest open question, at least until this last Angel episode: how can they possibly travel anywhere? Unless Angels are just found randomly on planets, they'd have to either dematerialize or cross interstellar space. (The "image of an angel is an angel" might work, but that's also pretty solid nonsense introduced in their second appearance.) In short, none of the rules really matter: they're a horror movie monster and they do or don't do things based on whatever the current rules happen to be. Compare to the supposedly non-rules-based series monsters and you'll find far more consistency among them, despite the fact that we get new Cyberman designs almost every time they appear and the Daleks keep gaining and losing characteristics because their creator gets confused about their not being robots (Terry Nation, not Davros). SiKboy posted:Yes, but there is no need for them to BOTH simultaneously stare wide eyed at the angel while dan tries to fix the torch without looking at it is my point. That was dumb as poo poo. My point is that as long as Yaz doesnt look away or blink dan can look down, fix the torch and then it wont be completely dark as they would then have a working torch. "Hey yaz, you dont blink for a minute while I try and fix this". As it happened, Yaz could have watched while Dan worked on the torch without any change in the results, because the cloud passing over the moon made things dark enough for the Angel to attack. Two people looking hedges against a sneeze or startle or other response that might lead one to blink. I think you're expecting rather a lot from Dan, anyway, given that his method of fixing seemed to be tapping on it rapidly. Might as well complain about how the camera moves kept us from watching the Angels and preventing their attacks. At least we avoided the cringeworthy moment in Flesh and Stone where we saw an Angel turn its head.
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Nov 22, 2021 20:36
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Updog Scully posted:The 180 that The Time of Angels did on them, i.e. that they're suddenly sapient beings with goals and motivations, kind of sucks. They were initially kind of crocodilian, unthinking predators without much motivation. You can't easily give them agency or character given that they're a bunch of styrofoam props. NuWho, please invent another cool alien villain! Not that it changes your point any, but the Angels are actually actors in costume a surprisingly large amount of the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URpf1j9HuDA&t=460s
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Nov 22, 2021 21:37
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I think I'm ready to say that Flux just isn't working for me. We're over halfway through the 6 episodes and I don't really know what we're doing other than, "Trying to survive something really bad that's happening to the universe, also the Division is a thing that is bad" and I don't really care much about anything that's happening. Unless these last 2 episodes are really impressive at bringing things home...
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Nov 22, 2021 21:40
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gschmidl posted:It could've been the Sandmen (remember those?), so let's at least count that blessing? God that episode was such a bizarre and tonally off style of episode. The ending felt like something Joseph Lidster would have written.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:41
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thrawn527 posted:I think I'm ready to say that Flux just isn't working for me. We're over halfway through the 6 episodes and I don't really know what we're doing other than, "Trying to survive something really bad that's happening to the universe, also the Division is a thing that is bad" and I don't really care much about anything that's happening. Unless these last 2 episodes are really impressive at bringing things home... It's Chibnall, so hope is definitely the first step on the road to disappointment here.
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Nov 22, 2021 23:07
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Professor Jericho was the sex shop sales guy from that one episode of Bottom.
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Nov 23, 2021 01:38
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So I finished Season 11 today and…. I thought it was pretty alright? Sure there were some embarrassing episodes like Kerblam, but a lot of Who seasons have multiple bad episodes. The next season must be truly something else for Thirteens years to be so looked down upon
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Nov 23, 2021 03:49
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There's still stuff to enjoy in season 12, my biggest issue with it is the ending but in general I felt the stories weren't quite up to the level of season 11, there were no real standouts like It Takes You Away. There are some episodes that kind of blow you away at particular moments though, like the ending reveal in the first episode, but the follow-up to those leaves quite a bit to be desired (in my opinion anyway).
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Nov 23, 2021 03:54
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Unkempt posted:Professor Jericho was the sex shop sales guy from that one episode of Bottom. He was also in all the Pirates of the Caribbean films (as Jack Sparrow's first mate) He also popped up in Dalek Universe starring David Tennant. And of course, he was in The Twin Dilemma with Colin Baker
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Nov 23, 2021 04:32
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The angels cover their eyes so they don't lock each other like happened at the end of Blink.
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Nov 23, 2021 05:37
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