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Gnoman posted:I don't know what you mean by that, but the weapon you describe does not violate international law in any way shape or form. Therefore it cannot be described as "making them more war-crimey". k, serious post time. The book I read about the Predator aviation drone project was called Never Mind, We'll Do It Ourselves: The Inside Story of How a Team of Renegades Broke Rules, Shattered Barriers, and Launched a Drone Warfare Revolution, and the first chapter in it was a step by step account of the first time a Predator drone fired a live Hellfire missile at people in Afghanistan. I got through most of the first chapter WTFing constantly, then power-skimmed the rest of it. The first chapter in "Never Mind.." was really wtf through and through, I essentially sounded like the first 20 seconds of this youtube clip on a loop as I read chapter 1. https://youtu.be/vOTfb2wcrn0 For example in chapter 1 of "Never Min..", the CIA was conferenced called in/watching the video feed of the Predator drone tracking the car convoy and kept saying "shoot. Shoot." everytime the car convoy carrying a suspected terrorist stopped, the program manager physically onsite at the Predator drone remote control trailer kept asking for the kill order in writing everytime the CIA said "shoot. Shoot.". Then when the convoy stopped in front a large building with other cars around the CIA tried to pressure the image analyst also watching the video-feed/on the conference into un-seeing the minarets on the building the convoy parked at and give the green light to fire away. Minarets on a building typically means it is a mosque or right next to a mosque, and mosques are no-fire zones for US forces. The CIA kept getting pisssed off the suspected terrorist couldn't be identified so they pressured the legal department also on the conference call/watching the video feed to ok shooting one of cars in the convoy in the hopes of "drawing <the terrorist> out (so they could kill them with the remaining Hellfire missile on the Predator drone tracking the car convoy)". The Predator drone operator fired away, and I just put the down the book WTF'ing away, and started to powerskim the rest of the book. e: the "tantalum fragmentation sleeve" thing in "Never Mind.." was the authors of the book humblebragging how they innovated usage of that tantalum fragmentation sleeve on Predator drone mounted Hellfire missiles because the default Hellfire missile only had a 20lb warhead and might not be able to kill everything/do enough soft-target damage when the missile exploded. Thus requiring the 2nd Hellfire missile on a Predator drone to be fired, and back then Predator drones could carry 2 Hellfire missiles maximum. That is my example of a WarCrime. quantumfoam fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 07:23
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That's usage. If the situation described is a war crime (which requires the violation of an international law or a treaty the US is subject to), that is true no matter what weapon was used. That the perfectly legal weapon was improved in a perfectly legal way is not in and of itself a war crime, and being happy that they were able to successfully convert a single-use weapon into a dual use one is not "humblebragging about warcriming better" no matter how you try to twist it.
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Nov 20, 2021 07:40
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Cool I disagree with you on the "but's that usage" thing re: using Hellfire missiles near civilians but whatever it's not worth derailing an entire thread over.PupsOfWar posted:oh wait probably the biggest pop-culture example is the gat dang Clone Army Clone troopers in the Star Wars prequel movies being maybe 10 yrs old tops and therefore child soldiers: yeah, how could I forget that. In SF fiction, FIASCO has the most memorable WarCrime events for me, mostly because at first most of them are not intended. Then the human expedition starts getting angry they can't communicate properly with the two alien factions and keeps making things more a, I guess you could call it, <drum beat> a fiasco.
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Nov 20, 2021 08:03
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The Halo books talk about the Spartans being used to run ops against wayward colonies up until the war with the covenant started, also as soldiers that were kidnapped and groomed to fight since childhood. Seems pretty warcrimey in spirit if not to the letter of the term. Basically sparks notes in this video but spoilers if you meant to read them yourself. Plus a whole bunch of other stuff I forgot about when I read a few of them ages ago.
chainchompz fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 08:50
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chainchompz posted:The Halo books talk about the Spartans being used to run ops against wayward colonies up until the war with the covenant started, also as soldiers that were kidnapped and groomed to fight since childhood. Seems pretty warcrimey in spirit if not to the letter of the term. can't forget the crime-est part of that, which is that the kids are kidnapped and replaced with clones who are destined to die quickly and horribly from turbocancer PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Nov 21, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 08:57
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That's right!
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Nov 20, 2021 09:00
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There was a short story in one of the Honorverse compilations that seemed to have been written off the prompt: "How can we tell a story about cluster-bombing a civilian population and have it done by the good guys?" Not a bad story (one of the series that helped turn the PRH from Evil French Commies into something approaching realistic, but realizing exactly what had been done was disquieting in retrospect.
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Nov 21, 2021 03:10
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Cobalt-60 posted:There was a short story in one of the Honorverse compilations that seemed to have been written off the prompt: "How can we tell a story about cluster-bombing a civilian population and have it done by the good guys?" Not a bad story (one of the series that helped turn the PRH from Evil French Commies into something approaching realistic, but realizing exactly what had been done was disquieting in retrospect. If it's the story I'm thinking of (the one where the Napoleon-expy cements herself as indispensable by putting down an even-more-radical uprising against the Committee for Public Safety), I'm not sure I'd say it was "the good guys" doing the clusterbombing, exactly.
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Nov 23, 2021 12:01
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chainchompz posted:The Halo books talk about the Spartans being used to run ops against wayward colonies up until the war with the covenant started, also as soldiers that were kidnapped and groomed to fight since childhood. Seems pretty warcrimey in spirit if not to the letter of the term. Basically sparks notes in this video but spoilers if you meant to read them yourself. Plus a whole bunch of other stuff I forgot about when I read a few of them ages ago. In Marathon (the previous series by the Halo people and somehow connected to Halo) had the Mjollnir Combat Cyborgs. They were the predecessor of the Spartans and could basically be sleeper celled into a population without even knowing it themselves and then activated to massacre large populations with small groups. They describe how a small group of them (like, half a dozen) could and would wiped out entire colonies once activated. It's implied they stopped using them because it turned out to be a bit much even for the government. The protagonist is one of them, implied to be the only one needed to wipe out the ship it was stationed on, if it came to that.
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Nov 26, 2021 13:16
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Kchama posted:In Marathon (the previous series by the Halo people and somehow connected to Halo) had the Mjollnir Combat Cyborgs. They were the predecessor of the Spartans and could basically be sleeper celled into a population without even knowing it themselves and then activated to massacre large populations with small groups. They describe how a small group of them (like, half a dozen) could and would wiped out entire colonies once activated. It's implied they stopped using them because it turned out to be a bit much even for the government. with strategies like this one, it's no wonder the Halo-aliens massacred their way straight to and onto Earth without much opposition imagine such a cyborg would have accidentally activated on a ship fighting the invaders, suddenly everyone dies and the ship blows up, the aliens are left wondering what the gently caress just happeend
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Nov 26, 2021 13:41
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Libluini posted:with strategies like this one, it's no wonder the Halo-aliens massacred their way straight to and onto Earth without much opposition The halo aliens basically gave up the ground war and just glassed every human held planet on the way to earth since their navy forces were superior.
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Nov 26, 2021 19:40
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Telsa Cola posted:The halo aliens basically gave up the ground war and just glassed every human held planet on the way to earth since their navy forces were superior. imho Halo would have been 1000x better if they'd just fed the super-cyborgs into giant torpedoes and fired them into the alien ships, Star Crash 2 style
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Nov 26, 2021 19:50
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Libluini posted:imho Halo would have been 1000x better if they'd just fed the super-cyborgs into giant torpedoes and fired them into the alien ships, Star Crash 2 style Hell they wouldn't even need the torpedos since they could survive in vacuum for extended periods of time as long as they had an external oxygen supply and nothing else. They didn't even need power armored suits to tear through aliens armies. Hell their shields were actually internally emitted. Kchama fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Nov 28, 2021 |
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Nov 28, 2021 23:38
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Is this some hyperbole joke I'm not getting? The shields just came from the armor. Also the first battle the Spartans have against the Covenant is indeed boarding one of the alien starships by uhh unconventional means (they shoot themselves at the damaged Covenant ship from a dropship's depressurized troop bay iirc). They were 14 at the time, which is a bit jarring.
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Nov 28, 2021 23:51
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Someone really needs to go see Star Crash 2, asap
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Nov 28, 2021 23:56
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i didn't realize Star Crash had a sequel how was i unaware of this
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Nov 28, 2021 23:58
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I already have a stark rash 
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Nov 29, 2021 00:04
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General Battuta posted:Is this some hyperbole joke I'm not getting? The shields just came from the armor. We're talking about the Mjollnir Combat Cyborgs from Marathon, the predecessor to Halo. It's just amusing how stronger they are than Spartans in Mjollnir combat armor.
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Nov 29, 2021 00:32
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Yes, my history of stuffing Destiny with Marathon references will tell you I know a thing or two about battleroids.
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Nov 29, 2021 00:38
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General Battuta posted:Yes, my history of stuffing Destiny with Marathon references will tell you I know a thing or two about battleroids. ... oh, so that was you. EDIT: Also just to clarify, your response made me think you thought we were talking about Halo, and not the Marathon equivilant, due to confusing names, sorry. Kchama fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Nov 29, 2021 |
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Nov 29, 2021 01:06
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Robert S McNamara once claimed Curtis LeMay admitted in private conversation that he (Curtis LeMay) would have been convicted as a War Criminal for his strategic firebombing of Japan tactics in World War 2 if the USA had lost World War 2. The thing RS McNamara leaves out in that "Curtis LeMay/firebombing of Japan/WarCriminal if the USA lost World War 2" claim is that he himself served in Pacific theater of World War II as an US statistics expert for the US Air Force who set theater-wide policies on minor stuff like the most efficient supply airplane routes for India/China/Marianas, the most efficient fuel/bomb weight ratios on bomber aircraft, firebombs loadouts being way more statistically efficient in Japan vs normal bomber loadouts in Japan, and the locations of airplane repair hubs for India/China/Marianas, etc. tldr: You need take anything Robert S McNamara has said or ever claimed with a massive 1-ton grain of salt, because he was a shitbag of unparalleled potency.
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Nov 29, 2021 18:09
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More quasi mil-scifi/mil-history related stuff. There is a IRL organization called the Association of Old Crows which started off as a next-tier style veterans assistance group for retired U.S. Air Force electronic warfare people but expanded their scope, and now do a bunch of additional things like give scholarships, fund academic studies, and mentor anyone who asks, but now mainly acts as boosters for all kinds of ElectroMagnetic Warfare/SIGINT efforts "nationally and internationally across government, defense, industry, and academia." U.S. Air Forces veterans may have heard about this organization before /known about this organization previously, I stumbled across it this weird during a weird aside in a non-fiction book about corvids/how humankind deals with & thought about corvids through recorded history. Anyway what makes the Association of Old Crows noteworthy to this thread that they also publish the Journal of Electromagnetic Dominance a periodical magazine for the EW/SIGINT communities, and the description of what goes inside the JoED is giving me hardcore vibes of the kind of "What-if" future-tech mil-fiction/mil-scifi bullshit that initially hooked me on mil-scifi and mil-fiction as a teenager.
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Dec 1, 2021 01:29
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Man, in comparison I got hooked by space ships shooting each other a lot, but that's it
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Dec 1, 2021 07:42
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Thank you, thread, for reminding me to go back and play through the Marathon series. It has some real neat writing and ideas.
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Dec 2, 2021 00:09
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Finally watched V the Miniseries (1983), V the Final Battle Miniseries (1984), and V the Series (1984). The "V" SF franchise explains so so much about science-fiction tv-shows and SF movies and SF/mil-scifi books that came out after it. Lots of tv-series tried to recapture V's success or aped elements in it over and over again. Despite being almost forty years old, that franchise aged extremely well. Some thoughts on the series. -Liked that V the Miniseries (1983), V the Final Battle Miniseries (1984), and V the Series (1984) pioneered the concept of bulletproof shrubbery that was such a core-mechanic in Jagged Alliance 1, a 1995 turn-based tactical computer game. -You can make the argument that X-COM: UFO Defense, a 1994 turn-based tactics and strategy computer game about fighting an alien invasion, was directly inspired by the "V" SF franchise and the justly forgotten "War of the Worlds" (1988) tv-series. -In that note, John Ringo one thousand and five percent based his Posleen War series on mashing up "War of the Worlds" (1988) tv-series and the "V" franchise into one. So you can directly blame CBS & NBC for kickstarting John Ringo's writing career. -Want to say that the "karma is a motherfucker" moments in the Final Battle were gratifying.
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Dec 9, 2021 10:37
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quantumfoam posted:The "V" SF franchise explains so so much about science-fiction tv-shows and SF movies and SF/mil-scifi books that came out after it. Hmm, UN-associated cloaked reptilian aliens who have mostly, but not entirely, taken over the US government. While secretly indulging in disgusting practices that would cause mass revolt if only they were more widely known. When talking about the influence of that series, it wouldn’t be fiiction I would focus on…
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Dec 9, 2021 14:11
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radmonger posted:Hmm, No real arguments there, V kickstarting the "lizardpeople politicians" meme and Californian almond farming and Californian wineries stealing just as much or more IRL water combined from real life California USA than the Visitors ever dreamed possible are real  Just thought I would initially focus on the mil-scifi/mil-fiction related elements of the "V" tv-series franchise in the mil-scifi/mil-fiction thread. There is so much drat stuff in the 1980's "V" franchise to unpack, would love to hear other peoples takes on the 1980's "V' franchise once they've refreshed their memories on it.
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Dec 9, 2021 18:00
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Not sure I expected a jaggd alliance link but any mention of Sir-Tech's finest is ok by me
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Dec 10, 2021 09:15
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It's been a while since I did one of these. I don't know where I was and frankly I don't care to look, so this might be retreading old ground. That's okay, I might have something fresh to say. Or not. I don't think anybody but Gnoman reads these anyways. quote:CHAPTER SEVENTEEN Theisman is a very important person in the future. He's something of a fan favorite, largely because he's probably one of the better written characters in the series. This isn't a high bar, admittedly, since most characters are very flat and boring, but the early-mid Haven crew are probably the best you're going to get in this. Anyways "Yu is a self-made man" is mostly eye-rolling because it doesn't actually show that Yu is good and cool like it wants to say, just that he didn't have the biggest advantage in the world. quote:And if the Captain had ever had reason to feel out of sorts, now was certainly the time, Manning thought as he pressed the admittance button. So how are they making replacements? This implies that they were basically salvaging the damaged parts to make replacements, but there's no real indication how. What, do they have a machining shop or factory on board? You still need tools and equipment to make that sort of stuff, and is every ship suppose to have space for this sort of thing? We don't really get a good look how any of this works as far as I remember. Weber just says stuff like this and lets it go. quote:"Goddamn it." Yu ran a hand through his hair in a harried gesture he never let a Masadan see, and then his free hand suddenly slammed the table top. Yu's right to be pissed. Like yadda yadda the Masadans have their own agenda, but it's always funny how the bad guys have a very specific agenda that always means foregoing an easy victory and always costs them their actual goals in the end. You never see the heroes bound by this sort of thing. It really only works for me if you can really sell that the easy victory isn't actually in their best interests. Allow for some real turn-the-chess-board-around thinking. Weber doesn't really try. quote:No one, Captain Yu included, had been prepared for just how good Manticoran anti-missile systems had turned out to be. They'd known the RMN's electronic warfare capability was better than theirs, and they'd assumed a certain margin of superiority for their other systems as well, but the speed and accuracy of Madrigal's point defense had shocked all of them. It had turned what should have been a complete kill into something far less, and if the destroyer's defenses hadn't been overextended by her efforts to protect her consorts, she probably would have gotten out completely undamaged. Does this ever actually pan out? The Manticorean EW advantage is always complete and total and in fact just constantly grows bigger and bigger. I guess it is from the Haven's point of view at this time, but it'd be interesting if it was true. quote:That had smarted badly enough for the "immigrants" in Thunder's crew—it had been their hardware that showed up so poorly, after all—but it had more than smarted for the Masadans. Sword Simonds had been livid as Madrigal and the two surviving Graysons raced out of their missile envelope. Manning was still astonished the Captain had managed to hang onto his temper as the sword ranted and railed at him, and despite his outward calm, Manning knew he'd been as close to murder as the exec had ever seen him when Simonds refused to order Franks to bypass Madrigal and pursue the Grayson survivors. 'the sword' should be capitalized here to 'the Sword' since it is referring to a specific Sword, and not the generic title. Minor nitpick, though. Yu's right to be angry, though. quote:Simonds had practically danced with rage as he rejected Yu's suggestion. The extent to which Madrigal had degraded the ambush had not only infuriated but frightened him, and he'd known perfectly well that at least some of Franks' ships would have been exposed to her fire, however widely they dispersed, if the squadron spread out to over-fly her. But I am not entirely unsympathetic with Sword Simonds here. They made real mistakes, yes, but at the same time... they couldn't know what would be the mistake and what wouldn't be. They were woefully unprepared, with little to no experience with modern ship to ship combat, and the Manticorean's super advanced EW basically had just destroyed all of their expectations of what was suppose to happen, and made it pretty clear that Haven had no loving clue what they were doing either. quote:Of course, the clubs had had their own turn after that. Crude as Masadan energy weapons were, there'd simply been too many of them for her, and they'd battered her to bits. But even after she'd been mortally wounded, Madrigal had set her teeth in the destroyers Archangel and Angel. She'd pounded them until she didn't have a single weapon left, and she'd taken Archangel with her. Of the entire squadron which had closed with her, only the cruiser Solomon and the destroyer Dominion remained combat effective . . . and, of course, Franks' decision to slow for the suicidal engagement meant the surviving Graysons had escaped. Sword Simonds is right in the end. Yu clearly overestimated their ships. Simonds have realize the Thunder could do a lot of damage, but also that it didn't do nearly as well against a mere Destroyer as it should have. That mere Destroyer fended off the Thunder of God's missiles and also the entire Masadan fleet by basically itself. Hell, if I remember correctly, the only reason why they defeated the Madrigal is that it was having to protect the Grayson fleet as well. A mere Destroyer doing that in the face of both the Thunder of God, the Principality, and the Masadan fleet is absolutely the epitome of confidence-destroying. If the actual Manticorean fleet returned, they are doomed in his eyes. quote:Manning maintained his silence and concentrated on looking properly sympathetic, and Yu's lips worked as if he wanted to spit on the decksole. Then his shoulders slumped, and he sank back into his chair. They also intellectually saw the Madrigal basically tank the Thunder of God and Principality's shots not only against itself but against an entire fleet single-handedly, and only be defeated due to having to spread its defenses out so thinly. If you're talking about an entire fleet, even if most are antiquated, having to focus-fire everything it has to defeat a single Destroyer, then you're not going to be too confident in any ships that took part in it. quote:For one whole day, Simonds had been adamant about the need to suspend all operations and seek a negotiated settlement. Yu didn't think Masada had a hope in hell of pulling that off after their sneak attack and Madrigal's destruction, but the sword had dug his heels in and insisted he simply didn't have the tonnage in Yeltsin to continue. This is actually the more interesting part of the setting's setup. It is also what kind of helps drain a lot of the suspense out for the heroes, though. The heroes are the one with advanced technology that far outstrips anything the villains do in a setting where this is basically the end-all be-all, and the bad guys are the ones who have to come up with plucky and clever plans to even come within spitting distance of the heroes. It's never even close to enough, which is what keeps it from working out nearly as well as it should. quote:So far, they'd lost only two of the tiny ships. The LACs were just big enough it took three tractors to zone each of them, and one tractor had lost lock during acceleration. That LAC had simply snapped in half; the second had survived the journey only to have its crew find a ragged, three-meter hole torn half the length of their ship where a twelve-ton pressure tank had come adrift and crashed aft like an ungainly cannonball. Simonds not remembering her name is absolutely suppose to be a comment on 'Graysons are better than Masadans at everything', no doubt. It's probably the most subtle characterization of that type Weber uses. quote:The practice drove Huggins berserk—which was one reason Thomas did it. Had the wench belonged to anyone else, the fire-and-brimstone elder would have sent her to the post for a public flogging prefaced by a few pointed words on the laxity of the man who allowed his wife to behave in such ungodly fashion. If the man in question had been unimportant enough, he might even have called for his stoning. As it was, he had to pretend he hadn't noticed. See? quote:The sword advanced across the carpet, ignoring her presence, and sat in the chair at the foot of the long table. The appearance of a tribunal, with himself in the role of the accused, was not, he was certain, a coincidence. Franks did mess up, and it is good that they were least able to figure that out instead of being complete idiots forever. quote:"Deacon Sands? Do you agree?" But they're going to go immediately back to being suicidally overconfident. quote:"So we can let him proceed if we must?" the Chief Elder pressed. I think 'basilisk gaze' is actually one of the worst ways to put that I have ever heard. quote:Huggins glowered for a moment, then bobbed his head stiffly. This time he didn't even pretend to apologize to the sword. I don't normally talk about Weber's actually choice of words, as his writing is technically fine most of the time. But 'flat as a snake's' doesn't really work as a simile about eyes, because snake eyes themselves are perfectly round, and while the schlera or whatever is flat, it's more slitted vertically, rather than horizonally in the way Weber is definitely thinking. Unless the dude's has special eyelids that close vertically instead of horizonally, I guess. It just really jumped out at me as a clumsy and poorly written simile, which feels rare for him to blunder, like with the basilisk one. He's bad at snake similes, I guess. Also, we are finally given the whole plan on the Masadan's side. Considering their assessment that Manticore wouldn't try to conquer them, sudden military conquering should probably be the better route than long-term subversion. They're going to have to deal with the Manticoreans either way, and if they care enough to try and liberate Grayson after an open invasion, then they'll probably have more than enough care to liberate it if Masadan assassinates key people and suddenly declare they run Grayson. If you think that Realpolitik is what Manticore cares about, then as long as you don't kill any more of their people or are willing to give reparations of some sort, there really isn't that big of a difference in the end result of the two plans, just of the chance of success. I think it would have been better to not just have a big scene where they laborously explain the plan and all of its details like this. Keep it a little bit of a mystery and allow for the turn-the-chess-board-around thinking to happen. Keep some mystery afoot. Like the fact that they don't name Maccabeus doesn't really matter, because there's only so many people it could be due to economy of characters on the Grayson side. Though if you think about it at all, it should be already obvious who the traitor is. There's only one person with the position and power to enact the plan and benefit from it in the way that would be required.
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Dec 14, 2021 05:34
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He's loves to set up what could be suspense or foreshadowing, but overdoes it and it ends up instead being insane telegraphing.
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Dec 14, 2021 07:41
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Pretty sure "make replacements" in that context means the act of replacing the damaged parts, not fabricating new ones.
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Dec 14, 2021 08:55
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Call me sentimental, but I didn't expect the movie Invasion U.S.A. to end with a bazooka vs bazooka standoff. Plotting and storytelling wise, Invasion U.S.A. was equivalent to a mid-tier David Drake mil-fiction novel or one of the middle of the series STEN CHRONICLES books. Thinking about it a bit, that Invasion U.S.A. ending probably lead to the mini-rocket equipped motorcycle in Delta Force (1986), and the quad-rocket launcher in Commando (1985) lead to the $15 dollar knockoff quad-rocket launcher in the so bad in every possible way it loops into being a stupid-good movie Hard Ticket to Hawaii (1987). Invasion U.S.A. and Delta Force, and Commando definitely qualify as live action mil-fiction. Hard Ticket I'd call a (unintentional) action-comedy where 90% of the cast gets out-acted by a rabid snake puppet. Blowing up a skateboard assassin doing serious hang-time in the air with a mini-rocket was a choice, using a second mini-rocket to explode the blow-up doll the skateboard assassin was carrying is just one of the things that make Hard Ticket amazing. https://youtu.be/tAaPeMMJLgs
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Dec 14, 2021 08:57
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Kchama posted:So how are they making replacements? This implies that they were basically salvaging the damaged parts to make replacements, but there's no real indication how. What, do they have a machining shop or factory on board? You still need tools and equipment to make that sort of stuff, and is every ship suppose to have space for this sort of thing? We don't really get a good look how any of this works as far as I remember. Weber just says stuff like this and lets it go. Even semi-modern warships have extensive machine shops on board. Here's a look at the kind of gear HMS Belfast, a WW2 light cruiser was carrying, https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/machinery-photos/machine-shop-hms-belfast-173211/ The US Navy is investing in 3D printing afloat, there's great potential for manufacturing spare parts, tools, and potentially, unique tools designed for a specific need at sea. https://www.marshall.edu/wamnewsletter/2021/04/rcbi-assists-u-s-navy-with-3d-printing-technology/ Weber knows a lot about the Age of Sail, so tropes from that show up everywhere. He knows gently caress all about 3D printing and its implications, so he never mentions it.
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Dec 14, 2021 10:14
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Kchama posted:Does this ever actually pan out? The Manticorean EW advantage is always complete and total and in fact just constantly grows bigger and bigger. I guess it is from the Haven's point of view at this time, but it'd be interesting if it was true. In the end fight the Thunder of God beats the absolute snot out of Fearless in just the manner described, and that's with the Havenites out of the picture and the Thunder being commanded and crewed entirely by the ludicrously incompetent Masadans. The Manticorans only survive because the person she sent to get help goes ignores all safety protocols and regulations and goes utterly balls to the wall for help and barely makes it. Without White Haven arriving in the nick of time the best outcome they could have possibly hoped for was a double KO against a ship commanded by utter idiots who are just pushing buttons and letting the autopilot fight for them. Left to their own devices Yu and Theisman would have absolutely smoked Harrington. After this I don't think there's another significant small scale action, so I don't think this ever happens again. God, why do I remember so much about these lovely books? Kchama posted:I don't normally talk about Weber's actually choice of words, as his writing is technically fine most of the time. But 'flat as a snake's' doesn't really work as a simile about eyes, because snake eyes themselves are perfectly round, and while the schlera or whatever is flat, it's more slitted vertically, rather than horizonally in the way Weber is definitely thinking. Unless the dude's has special eyelids that close vertically instead of horizonally, I guess. It just really jumped out at me as a clumsy and poorly written simile, which feels rare for him to blunder, like with the basilisk one. He's bad at snake similes, I guess. When used in this sense 'flat' usually refers to something being emotionless. A flat stare, a flat expression, flat eyes, etc. In this context it's more like "his eyes as emotionless as a snake's", which is workable imo. Khizan fucked around with this message at 10:41 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 10:33
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90s Cringe Rock posted:Pretty sure "make replacements" in that context means the act of replacing the damaged parts, not fabricating new ones. Eh, I'm unsure, but I won't say you're wrong. I may be reading too much into it. mllaneza posted:Even semi-modern warships have extensive machine shops on board. Here's a look at the kind of gear HMS Belfast, a WW2 light cruiser was carrying, I actually knew that modern warships have that. But I was just thinking of what we're shown and told that these ships have in terms of space and storage, which is why I was questioning if they would have the space for this. Plus, it's never mentioned one bit about having the facilities needed for that, as far as I've seen. Remember that these ships have a ridiculous amount of space dedicated just to missiles and weapons, much less everything else required. Though if they really ARE just making replacements and nothing else then that sort of thing isn't required, I don't think. Correct me if I'm wrong. Khizan posted:In the end fight the Thunder of God beats the absolute snot out of Fearless in just the manner described, and that's with the Havenites out of the picture and the Thunder being commanded and crewed entirely by the ludicrously incompetent Masadans. The Manticorans only survive because the person she sent to get help goes ignores all safety protocols and regulations and goes utterly balls to the wall for help and barely makes it. Without White Haven arriving in the nick of time the best outcome they could have possibly hoped for was a double KO against a ship commanded by utter idiots who are just pushing buttons and letting the autopilot fight for them. Left to their own devices Yu and Theisman would have absolutely smoked Harrington. That isn't ENTIRELY true. The Fearless defeats the Thunder of God multiple times at the cost of the Troubador, and while it is in serious danger, it still was winning. It was only taking one hit for every six+ it landed on the Thunder of God, which forces it to flee again and again. The last encounter is nothing more than a formality as reinforcements have already arrived and they just aren't aware of it yet. I was also talking about it from the Masadan point of view, where they just saw a Destroyer completely tank their entire fleet and even with the two modern ships, including a Battlecruiser. I can entirely believe seeing that scared the piss out of the Masadans in the moment, and make them worried if any real ships actually come back. And sure enough, the Fearless beats the hell out of the Thunder of God 1v1. Also "they overly-relied on the computers, as opposed to Yu and Theisman" is one of those things that is goofy when one of the things Yu says is that the Madrigal would have been easily beaten if they had more time for the computers to do their job. There's a contradiction that Weber wants to have the realistic aspect of the officers actually relying almost entirely on their systems but the also the dramatic human pushing a "do it" button and causing things to happen. quote:When used in this sense 'flat' usually refers to something being emotionless. A flat stare, a flat expression, flat eyes, etc. In this context it's more like "his eyes as emotionless as a snake's", which is workable imo. Except instead of 'flat' the intention is more that he's glaring at them with red, watery eyes, daring them them to argue. It just doesn't work for me.
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Dec 14, 2021 12:08
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Kchama posted:So how are they making replacements? This implies that they were basically salvaging the damaged parts to make replacements, but there's no real indication how. What, do they have a machining shop or factory on board? You still need tools and equipment to make that sort of stuff, and is every ship suppose to have space for this sort of thing? We don't really get a good look how any of this works as far as I remember. Weber just says stuff like this and lets it go. There are mentions later on about the extensive workshop facilities available on-ship, but Weber can just say it because it is automatic - every ship since the invention of ships has carried quite a bit of tooling. Specifying that a given ship has fabrication tools on board is akin to saying that a modern ship has toilets - the notion of not having that is ludicrous. quote:Does this ever actually pan out? The Manticorean EW advantage is always complete and total and in fact just constantly grows bigger and bigger. I guess it is from the Haven's point of view at this time, but it'd be interesting if it was true. Later books begin stepping considerably away from the level of detail to show it, but there's lots of cases where a battle turns because they finally manage to see through the ECM to identify an important ship, or get enough missiles through to have superior weight of fire start showing through. A pretty key such moment happens in the climax of the very next book. quote:They also intellectually saw the Madrigal basically tank the Thunder of God and Principality's shots not only against itself but against an entire fleet single-handedly, and only be defeated due to having to spread its defenses out so thinly. If you're talking about an entire fleet, even if most are antiquated, having to focus-fire everything it has to defeat a single Destroyer, then you're not going to be too confident in any ships that took part in it. This (and the section preceding it) are all good points. Both of the sides in this argument have good reason to feel the way they do. quote:This is actually the more interesting part of the setting's setup. It is also what kind of helps drain a lot of the suspense out for the heroes, though. The heroes are the one with advanced technology that far outstrips anything the villains do in a setting where this is basically the end-all be-all, and the bad guys are the ones who have to come up with plucky and clever plans to even come within spitting distance of the heroes. It's never even close to enough, which is what keeps it from working out nearly as well as it should. One thing that can be missed here is that this is implied to be the very first time in the setting's history that sublight units have been brought between systems quite like this. In just a few books, putting LACs on carriers and transporting them that way becomes a major tactic. quote:Also, we are finally given the whole plan on the Masadan's side. Considering their assessment that Manticore wouldn't try to conquer them, sudden military conquering should probably be the better route than long-term subversion. They're going to have to deal with the Manticoreans either way, and if they care enough to try and liberate Grayson after an open invasion, then they'll probably have more than enough care to liberate it if Masadan assassinates key people and suddenly declare they run Grayson. If you think that Realpolitik is what Manticore cares about, then as long as you don't kill any more of their people or are willing to give reparations of some sort, there really isn't that big of a difference in the end result of the two plans, just of the chance of success. As you say, it isn't too hard to ID the traitor, so there's no point not talking about this in detail now. They're not going to coup the government, put Masadans in charge, and then declare victory. The plan is for an assassination that almost wipes out the planetary government, but doesn't quite get everyone. Then the traitor legitimately ascends the throne, "resolves" the Masadan crisis, and tells Manticore to gently caress off before spending years or decades preparing to let the Masadans in. There's a huge difference in both domestic politics and international between "the nation we were negotiation an alliance with got conquered, so we'd better honor the alliance we were setting up" and "the legitimate government of the nation we were trying to ally with got pissed off with us and told us to get the gently caress out of their territory". The first one is straightforward defense of an ally. The second is the outright conquest of somebody who refused your offer of alliance. Bit of a difference there. The Masadan plan here is pretty solid - assuming that it works out, they get everything they want at very little cost, and also with very little debt owed to Haven. I mentioned this before, but it is Haven's plan that doesn't make sense. Giving away first-line warships (complete with crews) is a major show of support, and almost impossible to hide. The historical parallel I can think of is Korea, where the Soviet Union not only supplied North Korea with fighter jets but provided pilots, several of which were killed in action with US forces or killed US pilots. The big difference is that a few dozen pilots and aircraft are nothing compared to major fleet assets, and both sides in the Korean War tried very hard to conceal the Soviet involvement - to the point where some very impressive aerial engagements were classified by the US for decades on account of the kills being Soviets. There was a real fear that if it were known that Soviet pilots were going down with US bullets in them (and vice-versa), public opinion in one country or the other would force open war. Haven's entire thing here is that they're trying to cut off Manticoran preparations without sparking that war. Yet they're willing to risk having Manticoran crewmembers killed by Havenite missiles, which is a pretty solid casus belli by any standard - and paints Haven as the blatant aggressor. This means that they have an excellent chance of winding up starting a war with a minor action that can't give them a decisive advantage, and one that will make it very hard to get neutral opinion in their favor. mllaneza posted:Weber knows a lot about the Age of Sail, so tropes from that show up everywhere. He knows gently caress all about 3D printing and its implications, so he never mentions it. 3D printing was purely theoretical in the 1970s, and started to have some value in prototyping in the 80s. Universities started to make progress on actual usable prints in the mid-90s, and major use didn't start to happen until the 2010s. This book was published in 1993. Practical 3D printing didn't even exist yet. EDIT because of a reply that wasn't there. Kchama posted:That isn't ENTIRELY true. The Fearless defeats the Thunder of God multiple times at the cost of the Troubador, and while it is in serious danger, it still was winning. It was only taking one hit for every six+ it landed on the Thunder of God, which forces it to flee again and again. The last encounter is nothing more than a formality as reinforcements have already arrived and they just aren't aware of it yet. I don't want to get too deeply into it before the actual battle, but the only reason that Thunder Of God doesn't obliterate Harrington's forces with ease is that the guys in command keep getting spooked and backing off. The final mutual death ride is the only time that they actually go for the kill. quote:Also "they overly-relied on the computers, as opposed to Yu and Theisman" is one of those things that is goofy when one of the things Yu says is that the Madrigal would have been easily beaten if they had more time for the computers to do their job. There's a contradiction that Weber wants to have the realistic aspect of the officers actually relying almost entirely on their systems but the also the dramatic human pushing a "do it" button and causing things to happen. There's a difference between using the computers and letting the computers run things. Yu is talking about letting the computers process their way through the interference and allowing the tactical officers an opportunity to adjust, while the later engagement has the computers in total control (because the operators don't know what the gently caress they're doing), allowing Fearless's computers the chance to figure out their algorithms. Gnoman fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 12:18
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Gnoman posted:There are mentions later on about the extensive workshop facilities available on-ship, but Weber can just say it because it is automatic - every ship since the invention of ships has carried quite a bit of tooling. Specifying that a given ship has fabrication tools on board is akin to saying that a modern ship has toilets - the notion of not having that is ludicrous. I mean you'd think so, but you have to have space for them and that's something an Honorverse ship doesn't have. We know for a fact that LACs absolutely don't have space for it, since they make a big point that they don't have the space for ANYTHING. quote:Later books begin stepping considerably away from the level of detail to show it, but there's lots of cases where a battle turns because they finally manage to see through the ECM to identify an important ship, or get enough missiles through to have superior weight of fire start showing through. A pretty key such moment happens in the climax of the very next book. I actually do feel like the Havens are the best written faction, because their interactions with everyone but Manticore makes them feel a lot more human. quote:One thing that can be missed here is that this is implied to be the very first time in the setting's history that sublight units have been brought between systems quite like this. In just a few books, putting LACs on carriers and transporting them that way becomes a major tactic. I don't mean to undersell this. Haven pulls off Clever Plucky Underdog stuff like this a lot and it is genuinely good. I just wish it really mattered. quote:As you say, it isn't too hard to ID the traitor, so there's no point not talking about this in detail now. They're not going to coup the government, put Masadans in charge, and then declare victory. The plan is for an assassination that almost wipes out the planetary government, but doesn't quite get everyone. Then the traitor legitimately ascends the throne, "resolves" the Masadan crisis, and tells Manticore to gently caress off before spending years or decades preparing to let the Masadans in. You're not wrong about a lot of this, but the problem is that when the chips are down they just go for "gently caress IT NUKE THEM" which is why I feel like the "just conquer them before they can fight back" plan would have worked better on the whole. But the main reason why I think it is an issue is that Masadan's own thinking is that Manticore only cares about the Manticoreans killed and the anti-Haven base, and will only expend so much blood and treasure to save Grayson. So the plot to kill both Manticoreans and Grayson officials in an assassination that Masada obviously perpetrated would just ensure that Manticore will be looking to gently caress them up. Whereas winning by taking orbit and overthrowing the government and then offering Manticore a base in exchange for recognition of Grayson as part of Masada would be less dangerous on the whole. quote:I don't want to get too deeply into it before the actual battle, but the only reason that Thunder Of God doesn't obliterate Harrington's forces with ease is that the guys in command keep getting spooked and backing off. The final mutual death ride is the only time that they actually go for the kill. We'll see. I haven't read the battle in forever, but you can "I told you so" then. quote:There's a difference between using the computers and letting the computers run things. Yu is talking about letting the computers process their way through the interference and allowing the tactical officers an opportunity to adjust, while the later engagement has the computers in total control (because the operators don't know what the gently caress they're doing), allowing Fearless's computers the chance to figure out their algorithms. There's the reason why I complain about Weber at one point talking about how the computers do all the work but the secret sauce is operators hitting a button. I'd think less of it if the issue was that they didn't know how to operate the EW computers at all. Kchama fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 15:02
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Kchama posted:. Two things here. We don't know who they intended to blame the "failed" coup on (the actual attempt relies on factors that could not be planned for), but the result is supposed to be a purely Grayson government. The closest RW equivalent would be assassining Clinton to put Gore in charge, but Gore is actually a deep-cover Soviet agent. From the outside, it just looks like a normal succession. They're also massive bigots who assume that anyone weak enough to be ruled by a woman is a coward who will back down, but the plan doesn't quite rely on that. quote:There's the reason why I complain about Weber at one point talking about how the computers do all the work but the secret sauce is operators hitting a button. I'd think less of it if the issue was that they didn't know how to operate the EW computers at all. That is the exact issue. The Masadans didn't know how to operate the EW systems and left them in fully automatic mode. So it just went through everything in sequence from the same point, and Fearless's systems were able to identify and use that.
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Dec 14, 2021 15:13
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Khizan posted:When used in this sense 'flat' usually refers to something being emotionless. A flat stare, a flat expression, flat eyes, etc. In this context it's more like "his eyes as emotionless as a snake's", which is workable imo.  fuckin' SLANDER.
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Dec 14, 2021 15:15
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Gnoman posted:Two things here. We don't know who they intended to blame the "failed" coup on (the actual attempt relies on factors that could not be planned for), but the result is supposed to be a purely Grayson government. The closest RW equivalent would be assassining Clinton to put Gore in charge, but Gore is actually a deep-cover Soviet agent. From the outside, it just looks like a normal succession. That seems to fly in the face of this chapter though. quote:"That's true," Elder Simonds mused, then inhaled deeply. "Very well, Brothers, I think we have reached our moment of decision. Maccabeus remains our best hope. If he can secure control of Grayson by domestic means, we'll be in a far better position to stave off further Manticoran intervention. No doubt they'll demand steep reparations, and I am prepared even to bend my neck to publicly apologize for our 'accidental' attack on a ship we didn't realize wasn't Apostate-built, but the destruction of any local regime to support their aims in the region should cause them to cut their losses. And, given their traditional foreign policy, it's unlikely they'll have the will and courage to conquer us to gain the base they desire. Most importantly, if Maccabeus succeeds, we can gain gradual control of Grayson without further overt military action, which means we will no longer need Haven, either, so I think we must delay Thunder's return to Yeltsin for at least one more day to give him time. This is what he expects to happen in the case of Maccabeus SUCCEEDING. They're expecting Manticore to back off after the assassination despite everyone knowing that Masada did it and put a Masadan stooge on the throne, as long as Masada pays the reparations for 'accidentally' blowing up a Manticorean ship. The main benefit to Maccabeus's success in their eyes is the fact that they can tell Haven to shove off because Manticore won't attempt to conquer them for for blatantly taking over Grayson by hook and crook. quote:That is the exact issue. The Masadans didn't know how to operate the EW systems and left them in fully automatic mode. So it just went through everything in sequence from the same point, and Fearless's systems were able to identify and use that. I just reread it actually. The chapter says... quote:Thunder of God's second salvo fared almost as badly as the first, and Simonds wrenched around to glare at his tactical section, then bit back his scathing rebuke. Ash and his assistants were crouched over their panels, but their systems were feeding them too much data to absorb, and their reactions were almost spastic, flurries of action as the computers pulled it together and suggested alternatives interspersed by bouts of white-faced impotence as they tried to anticipate those suggestions. They didn't have enough people with enough experience to run both at once. It goes on to talk about how the issue wasn't that the AI in charge would only do looping defenses, but that the Masadans programmed it to explicitly loop because the guy in charge only had time to set up one preprogrammed defensive ECM package (which I'm not sure really makes sense, how do you have prepackaged 'complex deceptions' for ECM?) that looped every 8 minutes, but because it was on this prepackaged defenses there was no one watching it at all to be able to tell if the sensors were being blinded. Drakyn posted:
Yeah, agreed.
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Dec 14, 2021 15:54
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