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Given the Division's whole thing about keeping secret and making people forget things, you'd think they'd include The Silence in them.... hell, maybe they do 
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Nov 23, 2021 07:02
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I'm surprised how many people here are down on this episode. I thought it was one of the best, and probably the best use of the Angels since Blink. Who cares if they are sometimes slightly inconsistent with the rules about the Angels? At least they are back to their original shenanigans involving teleporting people back in time and feeding off the energy of their unlived lifetimes. And not like that Amy ep when you saw them physically move.. Ugh that looked so cheap, and really made them less effective at the time. For me anyways. anastazius fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Nov 23, 2021 |
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Nov 23, 2021 07:34
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I'm totally on board with the Angels working on horror monster logic. Why does setting the picture on fire create a flaming ghost angel? gently caress knows, but its cool.
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Nov 23, 2021 11:42
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Davros1 posted:He was also in all the Pirates of the Caribbean films (as Jack Sparrow's first mate) Oh my god, thank you. That’s where I knew him from.
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Nov 23, 2021 14:40
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https://twitter.com/sophiecowdrey/status/1463052762552455168 https://twitter.com/amazingabri/status/1463140404023418885 Vinylshadow fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Nov 23, 2021 |
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Nov 23, 2021 14:49
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I'm totally on board with the Angels working on horror monster logic. Why does setting the picture on fire create a flaming ghost angel? gently caress knows, but its cool. I think the source of the complaint is more that (outside Blink) they are not horror movie villains, but high-concept sci if. Good horror movie villains always have a simple fixed set of rules. People who die are generally presented as idiots for not following them; that’s what makes their deaths enjoyable. As a sci-fi concept they are pretty out there; entities that have a fixed form, but not a fixed location.The image of an angel becoming an angel is not a new power; it is just how they work. They can ‘move’ between objects with similar shapes, just like a person can move between nearby locations. So an angel doesn’t actually move, it manipulates the timeline so its image already is in the place it wants to manifest. Problem is, there really is not much you can do with that idea that the audience is going to follow.
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Nov 23, 2021 16:26
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They aren't going to use the Angels as some kind of quantum-observation thing, are they? Just a lame monster?
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Nov 23, 2021 17:02
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The Abominable Snowmen is the next animated story
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Nov 23, 2021 17:05
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radmonger posted:I think the source of the complaint is more that (outside Blink) they are not horror movie villains, but high-concept sci if. Good horror movie villains always have a simple fixed set of rules. People who die are generally presented as idiots for not following them; that’s what makes their deaths enjoyable. I think that your argument is trending towards No True Scotsman fallacy territory, but also: Alien, absolutely a horror film with a classic horror movie villain, and it doesn't fit the rules structure. The concept of a horror villain who follows some set of rules is an invention of the 80's slasher film anyway, IIRC, codified by Friday the 13th films. You've got plenty of films before then, even including pseudo slashers like the original Black Christmas and Suspria, which don't have really have rules as we understand them, or books like Carrie, which base a lot of the logic behind the killings in psychology, while also acknowledging that there's a lot of random collateral death.
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Nov 23, 2021 18:31
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Genuinely enjoyed this, fuzzy on the monster rules but pretty strong on character in a way that Chibnall's previous seasons haven't been.
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Nov 23, 2021 18:50
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anastazius posted:I'm surprised how many people here are down on this episode. I thought it was one of the best, and probably the best use of the Angels since Blink. I've not been blown away by this season, but I thought this episode and the use of the Angels was fantastic, and I have no idea why people apparently spent the episode cataloging rules rather than basking in the feel of things. So many other Angel episodes have actually been a mess, both in terms of rules and how they feel, that it was great to get back to one that felt so solid and comparatively simple. I think the setting and characters had a lot to do with it. The professor was great. The Division stuff at the end was... less solid for me, so I feel it ended on not quite such a high note, but being besieged by angels in a 1960s professor's house was some quality Doctor Who.
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Nov 23, 2021 19:26
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Vinylshadow posted:The Abominable Snowmen is the next animated story  It's a meaningful story for me, because it was the ongoing adventure when I was born. Yup, old fart here.
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Nov 23, 2021 20:03
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Jerusalem posted:Given the Division's whole thing about keeping secret and making people forget things, you'd think they'd include The Silence in them.... hell, maybe they do A retcon of The Big Bang I could get behind. “We were trying to stop the Doctor from bringing back the Time Lords and accidently blew up the TARDIS and destroyed all of space and time because we’re renegade confessor priests” makes a hell of a lot less sense than “We were trying to end the universe.” Although what the Division wants precisely is unclear, if we assume our unidentified woman who wants to end the universe is connected with the Division, we can probably safely assume that that’s at least a step in the plan. These do seem like the sort of people who would say “gently caress it, our original plan didn’t work, let’s terminate this universe and start from scratch” and that does seem like something the Doctor would oppose. Open Source Idiom posted:I think that your argument is trending towards No True Scotsman fallacy territory, but also: Alien, absolutely a horror film with a classic horror movie villain, and it doesn't fit the rules structure. It’s funny you mention Friday the 13th because that is my paradigm of the “horror movie with rules” where the rules can change radically from appearance to appearance. The first film, Jason isn’t even the killer! I completely agree with your larger point that the “set of rules” logic isn’t really a thing except within the framework of each specific appearance. I’ll repeat that the Angels, while inconsistent, haven’t even neared the levels of inconsistency for most of the old school Who monsters. Moffat broke their rules every time they reappeared, sometimes radically, and the nonsensical elements permitted in the name of horror were as bad or worse as in their latest appearance. “Statue of Liberty takes a walk at night through Manhattan without anybody looking out their window” is a heck of a lot worse than “Angels can apparently move through solid stone but wooden doors hold them off for a surprisingly long time”. I am a bit concerned that we’re going to get a Vardan-style reveal that the Division Angels are just people wearing Angel suits to protect them from the effects of the Flux and nonlinear Time.
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Nov 23, 2021 20:26
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I'm actually very heartened to see so many positive responses to this because to me it's absolute and utter nonsense, and I'm glad it appears that to be just me and that some people are loving it. Personally I'm quite sad that this is how Jodie Whittaker - who I think is really good in the role - is going out, but if it's a high note for lots of folks then hurrah. I'd be more concerned about the effects on Doctor Who's continuity if that had ever really been much of a thing in the first place.
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Nov 23, 2021 20:41
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I don't hold it against the show, because it's just my opinion, but I agree that the Angels have become less scary with each new complication and ability. The basic concept of "can only move when not being looked at" is simple and easy to understand. Using just that rule you can imagine kids on a playground making a game of it, playing angels themselves. The stuff with an image becoming one and all that feels more Calvinball in comparison. Like I said though I don't hold it against the show because I don't think you could do more than a couple of episodes using the Weeping Angels with just those rules, and they're so popular and iconic as a Who villain that they could never be a one off.
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Nov 23, 2021 21:30
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Happy Birthday Doctor Who!
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Nov 23, 2021 22:00
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This is loving awesome. Is this the same artist who did this awesome animation? 
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Nov 24, 2021 02:01
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That felt like an utter slog. Also, the Professor was blinking while shouting at the TV. Cmon lad. Doctor Angel is cool though. Quotey fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Nov 24, 2021 |
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Nov 24, 2021 04:44
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Jerusalem posted:This is loving awesome. Is this the same artist who did this awesome animation? Googlefu no Jutsu leads me to Stephan Lentz on Tumblr from 2015
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Nov 24, 2021 04:45
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Vinylshadow posted:Googlefu no Jutsu leads me to Stephan Lentz on Tumblr from 2015 Thanks, was hoping against hope to find an animated version of it. It's VERY cool 
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Nov 24, 2021 10:53
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Open Source Idiom posted:I think that your argument is trending towards No True Scotsman fallacy territory, but also: Alien, absolutely a horror film with a classic horror movie villain, and it doesn't fit the rules structure. It’s more a ‘why do people laugh at Donald Trump when he wears a kilt?’ argument. I’m trying to describe why people have the reaction they do, not come up with an airtight logical definition of what a given genre is. Alien works as _both_ sci fi and horror because ‘alien parasite with acid blood’ is a simple sci fi idea that results in an understandable set of horror rules. For example, ‘don’t break quarantine’. In contrast, Aliens is a war movie, not a horror movie. So it is free to add complications to the creature’s lifecycle. Subsequent entires in the Aliens franchise mostly tried to have it both ways.
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Nov 24, 2021 14:42
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One of the awkward things about the current run of Dr Who is how good Jo Martin is when she pops up. The writing overall has been garbage, just garbage ("The Tsuranga Conundrum"?, just gently caress right off with that trash). It's hard to argue against how Jodie has been seriously short-changed (though I'm liking Flux enough). I'm still waiting for those revealing moments of "giving enough rope" cleverness or anger that add colour to the Doctor (and Capaldi really did these both well). Jo Martin just has that look and presence of "right, I'm stepping in and taking control of this poo poo-show right now". I'd just love to see a season of her. Anyway, the giant maggots in "The Green Death" and the giant rat of "The Talons of Weng Chiang" both gave me considerable nightmares so take my opinion with a grain of salt...
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Nov 24, 2021 16:47
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https://twitter.com/bigfinish/status/1462744237355769859?s=20 He was also in Tomb of the Cybermen and The Claws of Axos
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Nov 24, 2021 17:07
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I think Village of the Angels is the best traditional Doctor Who episode of the Whittaker era, and that's just sad.
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Nov 24, 2021 23:06
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Absolutely hated the episode as expected. They just keep making up poo poo re: the angels, as discussed to death. Still interested to see where Flux as a whole is going. Someone mentioned the weird b&w house in episode 2 earlier in the thread - could that be Lungbarrow?
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Nov 24, 2021 23:46
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Edward Mass posted:I think Village of the Angels is the best traditional Doctor Who episode of the Whittaker era, and that's just sad. What do you consider the criteria for a traditional doctor who episode, just out of interest?
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Nov 24, 2021 23:52
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SiKboy posted:What do you consider the criteria for a traditional doctor who episode, just out of interest? Well, there's a villainous creature of some sort, and the Doctor has to use his/her wits to solve a mystery.
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Nov 25, 2021 00:36
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gschmidl posted:Absolutely hated the episode as expected. They just keep making up poo poo re: the angels, as discussed to death. Still interested to see where Flux as a whole is going. I'm assuming given it's bizarre configuration that it's where Division jammed her memories of her time between The War Games and Spearhead from Space, but most of my theories about this season have gone nowhere so who knows v  v
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Nov 25, 2021 01:04
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gschmidl posted:
If it is, that would be truly amazing.
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Nov 25, 2021 01:18
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Isn't Lungbarrow that story with the nonsense about the Looms and the Other that they wisely chose to keep out of the actual television show?
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Nov 25, 2021 01:22
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Jerusalem posted:Isn't Lungbarrow that story with the nonsense about the Looms and the Other that they wisely chose to keep out of the actual television show? It's the final story in that arc, yeah, but it's not the only story to draw from or develop that material. There was a reference to it in The Timeless Child IIRC.
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Nov 25, 2021 01:50
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Open Source Idiom posted:It's the final story in that arc, yeah, but it's not the only story to draw from or develop that material. There was a reference to it in The Timeless Child IIRC. Yeah, it's why I'm in a mild panic about whatever Chibnall's ultimate resolution is. I detest the notion of the Looms/The Other as a concept and it's one of those narrow misses like the Doctor and the Master being sons of Ulysses the legendary Time Lord that I'm forever grateful got thrown out or never got a chance to happen. That's why I keep pushing for the Season 6B nonsense, because that's also bad but at least it doesn't turn the Doctor from a selfish old man who learned to be compassionate and adjust his moral compass via exposure to outside cultures/species and ways of thinking into a super special sexless reincarnation of some mythical Time Lord from the origin of their species who was just always naturally a "good" person trying to make the universe a better place. I mean there's also a balance, when Cartmel (I think?) first suggested they put some mystery back into the Doctor as a character, the other reaction was to put more question marks on the Doctor's costume 
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Nov 25, 2021 02:03
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Jerusalem posted:Yeah, it's why I'm in a mild panic about whatever Chibnall's ultimate resolution is. I detest the notion of the Looms/The Other as a concept and it's one of those narrow misses like the Doctor and the Master being sons of Ulysses the legendary Time Lord that I'm forever grateful got thrown out or never got a chance to happen. That's why I keep pushing for the Season 6B nonsense, because that's also bad but at least it doesn't turn the Doctor from a selfish old man who learned to be compassionate and adjust his moral compass via exposure to outside cultures/species and ways of thinking into a super special sexless reincarnation of some mythical Time Lord from the origin of their species who was just always naturally a "good" person trying to make the universe a better place. Given that the Timeless Child retcon is all about "Before she was the Doctor, she was a refugee/orphan who got experimented upon and then ended up working for the Time Lords and the Division before getting fed up and breaking with them," it's a bit strange to be upset over all the character arc for One that is going to get messed up. If One doesn't remember his past and doesn't start out a hero, then surely the arc development is still significant? You might as well suggest that because Eleven prevented the War Doctor from using the Moment to destroy Gallifrey, every moment of the Doctor's development from Nine to Eleven becomes totally meaningless. It is because Eleven thought War Doctor pushed the button that he's able to prevent it from happening. The good (?) news is there's no way that's either Lungbarrow or that Season 6B is happening. It'll be something new to piss a whole bunch of fans off while delighting others or, if we're unlucky, delighting nobody.
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Nov 25, 2021 04:23
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Jerusalem posted:Isn't Lungbarrow that story with the nonsense about the Looms and the Other that they wisely chose to keep out of the actual television show? It's not so much that they kept it out of the programme as much as it was cancelled before they got there
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Nov 25, 2021 11:25
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The problem with the timeless child stuff is that its a very self indulgent addition. Its the worst kind of revelation in that its not just affecting the character now, but the character as he has always been. In trying to make the character more special, it makes the character we know feel less special as the journey we as an audience see becomes just the end of a long, long chain (plus also makes Matt Smiths doctor getting a new regeneration cycle kinda pointless). As for this episode, it wasnt bad, but i think the comments about the angels are valid. The one major rule they've had right from the start is "if they are being directly observed, they are involuntarily locked into the form of a statue as a form of self defence". If you blink and you have a guy next to you not blinking, they should not be able to move as they're still being observed. This is why they're also given the power to mess with technology (and the image of an angel becomes an angel), to solve the problem of "why doesnt someone watch them on a camera". It is a rule that gets a bit nickpicky when its suspended for the sake of drama (following their own rules the angels should be zipping around when amy has her eyes shut), but its clear to an audience when the rule is being broken rather than bent.
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Nov 25, 2021 11:58
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Narsham posted:Given that the Timeless Child retcon is all about "Before she was the Doctor, she was a refugee/orphan who got experimented upon and then ended up working for the Time Lords and the Division before getting fed up and breaking with them," it's a bit strange to be upset over all the character arc for One that is going to get messed up. If One doesn't remember his past and doesn't start out a hero, then surely the arc development is still significant? You might as well suggest that because Eleven prevented the War Doctor from using the Moment to destroy Gallifrey, every moment of the Doctor's development from Nine to Eleven becomes totally meaningless. It is because Eleven thought War Doctor pushed the button that he's able to prevent it from happening. It's the classic storytelling rule that one unlikely thing is a great kickoff point, while a series just feels convenientally coincidental and unsatisfying. Or the "which caused/because/and so" style of writing rule. There was a galifreyan. He became a time lord, and over his life became dissatisfied and bored. SO he stole a TARDIS and ended up on 1960s Earth hiding. His granddaughters teachers discovered his secret, WHICH LED TO him taking them offworld. Through their adventures he GREW and became The Doctor, and learned more about the positive attributes to be learned from humans. BECAUSE OF THIS he spent a lot more time on Earth and around humans, becoming deeply entwined in their history, WHICH LED TO...fill in the last 55 years here By contrast you have the idea of the Doctor being the most important figure in the history of the Time Lords, losing their memory and identity, AND THEN just coincidentally becoming one of the most pivotal figures again.
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Nov 25, 2021 14:25
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Caught up with the series the other day, and the thread just now. Is anyone else concerned that Joseph Williamson is simultaneously a) probably the most obscure historical figure of the revival and b) hasn't really been explained in-show by anyone yet? The only reason I've heard of him is because of the Williamson Tunnels being in Bollocks to Alton Towers, and I'm currently imagining 90% of the audience is going "who the heck is this weird top hat man?".
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Nov 25, 2021 18:28
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Edward Mass posted:Well, there's a villainous creature of some sort, and the Doctor has to use his/her wits to solve a mystery. With those criteria (which does preclude Demons of the Punjab and It Takes you Away I believe) I'd still say the witchfinders was better, as was the Tsuranga Conundrum (if you count the creature in that as villanous). Neither of those were great episodes, but they dont need to be because village of the angels was real bad. Real real bad. Orphan 55 and Nikola Teslas Night of Terror were also not particularly great, but I'd still argue better than Village of the Angels. I guess what I'm saying is I really hated Village of the Angels a whole bunch. Unrelated to this discussion, but related to Who, I assume we've all seen this display of bawbaggery? https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1463886950704820232?s=20 SiKboy fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 19:47
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I’m legit curious as to why you think it’s that bad, other than an inconsistent application of the Rules. Like is it something wrong with the characters or themes?
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Nov 25, 2021 20:24
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Paul.Power posted:Caught up with the series the other day, and the thread just now. It made me look up the character and discover an absolutely fascinating historical figure, so I really like it...Sydney would be so happy the show is fulfilling one of its original purposes!  This is one of those voiceover parody things from a British quiz show or something right, a comedian putting ludicrous lines over stock footage of an MP right? There's no way this is an actual real thing that a real politician really said, right? RIGHT!?! 
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Nov 25, 2021 22:56
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