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I haven't seen anybody else mention (comic spoilers) the fact that LARP guy was called Grills. Might be a reference / red herring or it might point to an unfortunate fate for him
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Nov 25, 2021 09:49
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Renner's not a great actor or anything, but he was fine in things not titled "Avengers" before this. I think it's more an issue of this being the first Marvel thing that gave him anything at all to work with.
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Nov 25, 2021 10:07
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BrianWilly posted:At this point the mistake itself bugs me way less than the perennial tendency of audiences to just have to try to paper over any perceived slights about the shiny new show they like, no matter how slight or straightforward they may be. The whole point is that it is a small nitpick, it's not the biggest deal in the world, and yet having anyone acknowledge it as maybe not the most airtight writing ever is like pulling wisdom teeth. Maybe it's just that nobody gives a poo poo about this as much as you and they never will? Embrace the diversity of the human experience.
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Nov 25, 2021 13:15
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why would an ambulance be leaving the hospital anyway
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Nov 25, 2021 13:31
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Calling Kate annoying is weirder to me than being pedantic over a scene transitioning from Hawkeye watching the news to being where events are taking place. She's an excited 22 year old meeting literally her childhood hero who lived through Thanos when Iron Man and Captain America did not. She's gonna be a little annoying. I guess it never struck me as weird and not endearing.
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Nov 25, 2021 14:48
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I haven't seen it yet and I'm not overly familiar with Kate Bishop but like it kind of sounds appropriate that she's a bit of a fangirl with an unnatural "para social" familiarity or whatever?
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Nov 25, 2021 15:04
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STAC Goat posted:I haven't seen it yet and I'm not overly familiar with Kate Bishop but like it kind of sounds appropriate that she's a bit of a fangirl with an unnatural "para social" familiarity or whatever? Yes, this is 100% who Kate is when she starts out. You can almost see Kelly Thompson write the script for her.
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Nov 25, 2021 15:48
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Kate is a spoiled rich selfish kid. She's supposed to be annoying. It's fine, it means they get it. Her mother says as much in actual dialogue.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:39
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Aphrodite posted:Kate is a spoiled rich selfish kid. She's supposed to be annoying. It's fine, it means they get it. Her mother says as much in actual dialogue. Yea, that was a good thing to lay out right away. Plus we know Kate is super good at basically everything she tries (except art) by her piles and piles of trophies, and being able to beat anyone in a structured environment like a tournament probably gave Kate the idea that she can pretty much beat anyone. Though while she is shown to know what moves to do, she doesn't have the experience on when and how to actually use them in a brawl. The fire extinguisher was a good example; she was able to hit it spot on, but not in the right place for it to do what she wanted it to do. And I think a lot of people may only be familiar with later Kate, where she's matured a lot and calls the older heroes out on their poo poo. This is more early Young Avengers Kate right now. I assume that by the end she will be modern kate more.
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Nov 25, 2021 19:01
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The thing people may have missed is also the title sequence shows she's not immediately great at everything. She fails, falls and tries again until she succeeds. Plus they're making her the protagonist much more than Clint in some ways. She rescues Lucky, she pisses off the TM, she's the one getting cuts and scrapes all over, trying to help but loving up. MCU Clint isn't Fraction/Aja Clint here. Kate is. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 19:04
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I think she's still very much Kate, but it's more of the version from the comics where she goes out to LA on her own. Disconnected from her usual comforts and trying to do something new, and while she's super competent, there's still a learning curve and she's making mistakes. I don't think she's selfish either, but as is the case with super rich people, disconnected from how people less well off than her live and not quite realizing all the privileges she's been afforded. She clearly wants to help and protect others, just like Clint, but doesn't really know exactly how it all works.
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Nov 25, 2021 19:11
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I liked the bit where Kate easily kicks the asses of three mobsters and then goofily runs out of the room in a panic. It was a good way of showing that she's a very skilled fighter but hasn't acquired the mindset of a hardened fighter yet.
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Nov 25, 2021 19:22
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Codependent Poster posted:I don't think she's selfish either, but as is the case with super rich people, disconnected from how people less well off than her live and not quite realizing all the privileges she's been afforded. She clearly wants to help and protect others, just like Clint, but doesn't really know exactly how it all works. I meant it mostly in her interactions with her mother. Obviously we know she's right because it's a TV show and we can recognize character names, but it starts way before she has anything to go on.
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Nov 25, 2021 19:42
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I liked how much Rogers: The Musical totally loving sucked
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Nov 25, 2021 19:47
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lol yeah
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Nov 25, 2021 19:50
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First Marvel thing in a long time where I'm flying solo. My wife has never liked Renner much anyway but the poor cycloptic canine getting kicked in the face in the first episode sealed its fate. Spoilers for future episodes: Probably for the best she bowed out now since IIRC from the comics Lucky gets grievously injured later on...?
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Nov 25, 2021 19:52
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Lobok posted:First Marvel thing in a long time where I'm flying solo. My wife has never liked Renner much anyway but the poor cycloptic canine getting kicked in the face in the first episode sealed its fate. Spoilers for future episodes: Probably for the best she bowed out now since IIRC from the comics Lucky gets grievously injured later on...? In the comic Lucky is grievously injured in his first appearance I think it's the first issue and it opens with Clint bursting in to a vet with a badly injured Lucky, then a flashback to what happened. So I suspect they might be skipping that and the brief kick is the worst that will happen to the dog. Air Skwirl fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 19:55
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Regarding Lucky: Yeah, in the comics, Lucky is injured and loses his eye in the first issue. In the show, he's introduced that way. The creators of the show have said they wanted to soften how he's brought in. There is a point later in the comics where Lucky gets shot, but I doubt we'll get that in the show.
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Nov 25, 2021 20:13
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Codependent Poster posted:Regarding Lucky: Yeah it's the second thing I'm thinking of.
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Nov 25, 2021 20:44
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Watched the first ep of Hawkeye. Yikes. Starting your show with a child actor emoting for ten mins in a literal penthouse in the sky was def a choice. Then to center her as an adult living the life of the 1 percent was def another one. This is prob the least sympathetic new character rolled out from Marvel I've ever seen. There's no zip to the proceedings, there is no dialogue other than cliches and inconsequential mutterings. It feels more like a Hallmark movie than anything else. Shot like it too, alot of bright lights. The action isn't that bad, but not particularly memorable either, just kinda flipping the same dudes over and over again. And the stakes....is recovering a costume? Like why was this made this way? When the comic itself was so daring and exciting in presentation and form? Why skip the whole being part of NYC's everyday community, the focus on Hawkeye and his travails, Kate Bishop being an interesting and maddening badass? Why start here lol. E: I guess we're not spoilering for the released eps Shageletic fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 20:45
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Shageletic posted:Like why was this made this way? When the comic itself was so daring and exciting in presentation and form? Why skip the whole being part of NYC's everyday community, the focus on Hawkeye and his travails, Kate Bishop being an interesting and maddening badass? Why start here lol. I mean it's kind of a consequence of the medium. MCU Hawkeye doesn't live in NYC like comic Clint (maybe he did at some point since he seems to have familiarity with the place), Kate isn't an established badass (yet) , and she's a rich girl who doesn't live with the everyday community. They just can't translate the comic 1:1 because it wouldn't fit in the MCU.
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Nov 25, 2021 21:26
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Yeah, I feel like some people wanted them to pull a Tom King and just pretend Clint's kids and wife don't exist, and also that Renner's not in his 50s. Like, they're using the themes and motifs but not the literal story. Plus, like, i feel like there's a good chunk of people posting who apparently haven't read anything featuring Kate that isn't the Fraction/Aja stuff. (Read the Thompson stuff, it's very good!) Also, there's a new Hawkeye mini that just started. It's pretty dece so far, albeit it's blatantly doing some shuffling of pieces to get her back to NYC for whatever Young Avengers relaunch is probably happening soon.
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Nov 25, 2021 21:30
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TwoPair posted:I mean it's kind of a consequence of the medium. MCU Hawkeye doesn't live in NYC like comic Clint (maybe he did at some point since he seems to have familiarity with the place), Kate isn't an established badass (yet) , and she's a rich girl who doesn't live with the everyday community. They just can't translate the comic 1:1 because it wouldn't fit in the MCU. Why not move the family to NY? Kate not being a badass is an artistic choice, as really her entire backstory is too. Marvel has taken liberties to make their characters more appealing for the MCU. She doesn't even read as 22 to me. She's acting more like a teenager. Its bizarre, and worst of all, boring. E: and you're right I didn't read much Kate Hawkeye outside the Fraction run and her guest appearances later. Either way I liked that character not whatever this version is. Like I actually stopped watching the second ep when I realized it's gonna hinge on a convince your mom your step dad is evil plot, like I'm reading a book made for middle schoolers lol Shageletic fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 21:32
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Shageletic posted:Why not move the family to NY? Kate not being a badass is an artistic choice, as really her entire backstory is too. Marvel has taken liberties to make their characters more appealing for the MCU. Moving an upper middle class family where the dad is a world-famous superhero that regularly gets fancy Chinese dinners comped to NYC does not look like the comic. They'd live in a fancy place like Kate's family. And Kate's always been a rich blacksheep. The change they've made is her being a daddy's girl (comics Kate's dad is alive and a villain, and kind of abused her mom who she loved), probably to avoid fridging the mom and also to set up her and Clint being more of a father/daughter thing.
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Nov 25, 2021 21:36
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I dont care about it mirroring the comic. That wasn't my point. My point is that the comic did interesting things, had an interesting slant on superheroes, and did a great job of integrating Hawkeye and the larger world around him in a way that was pretty new and exciting. What about this show or your prediction is new and interesting? Like what are the writers doing? It's such a missed opportunity.
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Nov 25, 2021 21:41
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you don't seem to get that this story is about kate, not clint
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Nov 25, 2021 21:43
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If you think the stakes is "recovering a costume" then you didn't pay attention to the story at all.
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Nov 25, 2021 21:45
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I pointed out that I found Kate to be particularly unsympathetic and undynamic in my first post about the show. I'm looking for anything to grasp on here, the show is that bad.
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Nov 25, 2021 21:46
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the premise of your argument seems to be that it is not the comic's story about clint. why isn't clint doing this? why isn't his family over here? why isn't he more involved in his community? it's because it's taking the trapping of the fraction/aja run to construct a different story centered around another character
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Nov 25, 2021 21:51
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And I'm telling that you that story is hackneyed, uninteresting, and insanely uncompelling. Honestly, I'm not interested in an argument. If you like it who cares, I've already stated why I didn't. A more interesting thing to do would be to say how you think it could be improved. Personally, I would have tried to combine the family and Kate Biship sections of this story, by making Kate Clinton daughter. We have previous scenes of him teaching her how to shoot arrows. Replace the current actress who is playing the daughter with someone with real chops. Make the show about Clint reluctantly passing the baton as his family is being targeted for his dark past. Make them live in an apt bldg that actually reflects NYC. Give us the rare chance to see the Marvel universe from the bottom up. Something like that...
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Nov 25, 2021 22:01
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You just came up with a way worse show. Congrats I guess.
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Nov 25, 2021 22:02
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Thanks!
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Nov 25, 2021 22:04
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Making Kate the daughter of Clint would make their dynamic from the comics (and the show) impossible. I don't get how you could say that it's not enough like the comics, then suggest something that would absolutely ruin the backbone of the relationship between Clint and Kate. Not to mention it obliterates Kate's backstory and a lot of the core of who she is. Codependent Poster fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 22:06
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My point was never about it being exactly like the comics. If you are going to diverge from it tho, you need to replace the mechanics with something just as interesting. Rich Girl Murder Mystery isnt.
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Nov 25, 2021 22:08
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Shageletic posted:My point was never about it being exactly like the comics. If you are going to diverge from it tho, you need to replace the mechanics with something just as interesting. Rich Girl Murder Mystery isnt. rich girl murder mystery isn't a divergence from the comic since that's quite a bit of kate bishop hawkeye's actual comic story
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Nov 25, 2021 22:12
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A Murder Mystery is exactly the type of stories that you tell with Kate Bishop. Also, after like the first 10 minutes, she's no longer rich girl Kate Bishop. She's "having to get by on fewer resources than she's used to and being thrown into unfamiliar territory" girl. Like if you don't enjoy the show, that's fine, but it's staying true to the characters and the comics. It sounds like you want a different show with different characters.
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Nov 25, 2021 22:14
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You're obviously just coming at this from a completely different angle and while it's definitely not subjectively wrong or anything it's not something I could ever get behind. You just seem to want something out of this show that other people really don't want. It just makes me think you fundamentally don't understand or either aren't familiar with Kate Bishop as a character.
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Nov 25, 2021 22:18
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They should make Hawkeye my dad instead.
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Nov 25, 2021 22:35
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X-O posted:You're obviously just coming at this from a completely different angle and while it's definitely not subjectively wrong or anything it's not something I could ever get behind. You just seem to want something out of this show that other people really don't want. It just makes me think you fundamentally don't understand or either aren't familiar with Kate Bishop as a character. I freely admit I didnt read Young Avengers. I just want a TV show that has a character that I can root for and stakes that can draw me in.
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Nov 25, 2021 22:42
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Shageletic posted:I freely admit I didnt read Young Avengers. I just want a TV show that has a character that I can root for and stakes that can draw me in. May I suggest giving Doom Patrol a watch?
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Nov 25, 2021 22:51
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