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Vicious gives me powerful "Mega64 x in 5 minutes" vibes. He's just god awful, why on earth did they think they needed the whole extended plot with him and Julia Both are basically just spectres of the past haunting Spike in the original, should've been left that way clearly Edit: for the record I actually like those mega 64 videos. They're funny, generally don't overstay their welcome and are made with a lot of love for the source material. 3 things I don't think I can say about the Netflix show Weird Pumpkin fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Nov 24, 2021 |
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Nov 24, 2021 15:51
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it’s been said already, but vicious in the anime is spike’s shadow archetype - he takes spike’s disregard for his own life and projects it to everyone else’s lives instead. that’s all there is to him. he doesn’t work as anything else
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Nov 24, 2021 15:55
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Sinding Johansson posted:Also, the more I watch the more I feel John Cho's Spike is a completely different character from the original. Yes he is. this show is not a straight up remake. I'm 2 from the finish and that was quite clear from about episode 2 onwards. The characters are familiar but have been changed a bit, some of that is backstory, some of that is their presentation and actual character. I'm enjoying this, but if you are constantly circling back to the anime as a point of reference I don't know how you'd view it as anything other than kinda disappointing. As it's own thing, using the same base values more or less to craft stories with, I think it's been fun and good. This Spike is absolutely not the nihilistic reckless one that we know from the anime, he is in fact a different character despite having the same name and look more or less. There has been a lot of scene/role reversals imo in this series, he is chasing the dream he had, not the notion that he feels he is stuck in one waiting to get up, which to me is at least an interesting way to differentiate them for story telling and motivation. I also don't see this as some fundamental misunderstanding of the former material, simply the staff of this show choosing to do a different take/story with the starting point. Enjoy it for what it is imo. Def agree the best bits are them just being Cowboys adventure of the week stuff, the "main" plot in the background is def the weaker part of the series. The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Nov 24, 2021 |
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Nov 24, 2021 16:24
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Crain posted:Saw a write up about this yesterday: Why does everyone in Netflix's Cowboy Bebop talk like that? I mean, that article makes some of those points, but NOT the bolded stuff. It mostly just sort of gestures at the idea that maybe Whedon's popularity could be to blame here. Like, if there was some sort of interview with the writers or producers on the show, or literally any other show, you'd have a point. But you've just got a few bits of dialogue as far as "proof" goes. Open Source Idiom fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Nov 24, 2021 |
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Nov 24, 2021 16:44
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Omon Ra posted:He does have lines, he says he ain't seen poo poo since Earth. I guess the state of his eyes could be due to drug use, but my first thought was that something happened to him due to the Astral Gate incident and the resulting ruin of the Earth. That's a reasonable interpretation, I figured drugs cause it is an episode about drugs delivered through the eyes and he seems a little off. Electro-Boogie Jack posted:In the new one the guy talks about how the rich sent their dogs up into space while the poor were left behind, not sure if it's been removed entirely. I just watched that episode last night and that's true but it's also a completely original addition to the Netflix show - and that's not precarity. It's a pathological hatred of the rich and it's coming from a character that's also been rewritten as very mentally unstable. It's just like in episode one where the robber in the opening scene was given a "murder anyone who works for a corporation speech" as opposed to the original's "I turned to crime because I was laid off from my job". Again this character was also rewritten to be (much more) unstable. The original depicts a fairly realistic precarity - like TJ is a mining town in decline. I don't recall it ever depicting any sort of hatred or resentment for the rich, let alone such a murderous one. I think it's very interesting that realistic everyday precarity (a classic element of noir which originated after the great depression) has been reinterpreted as crazed, murderous hated of the rich. The Notorious ZSB posted:Yes he is. this show is not a straight up remake. I'm 2 from the finish and that was quite clear from about episode 2 onwards. The characters are familiar but have been changed a bit, some of that is backstory, some of that is their presentation and actual character. I do agree with you. I don't think it's fair or reasonable to judge a show for what it isn't - the original Cowboy Bebop. It's not like I'm some superfan, I watched the orginal as a little kid and again recently in anticipation of the remake (the original largely holds up imo). I do think looking at the differences between the two shows is interesting though.
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Nov 24, 2021 17:14
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https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7nbgk/netflixs-cowboy-bebop-isnt-supposed-to-be-good Hey, dumbass haters, the remake is supposed to be bad. What now? 
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Nov 24, 2021 19:46
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Yes he is. this show is not a straight up remake. I'm 2 from the finish and that was quite clear from about episode 2 onwards. The characters are familiar but have been changed a bit, some of that is backstory, some of that is their presentation and actual character. It's definitely supposed to be different plot wise, but every time a company does this it always just leaves me thinking: did this need to get made? Or specifically for this show, did it need to be cowboy bebop? Like if you're going to change the characters from who they were in the original property, why not just make it it's own thing? They could have even set it "in the world" of cowboy bebop if they wanted the license connections. I guess comics and other media reboot things all the time but idk, just seems like they could have made it basically the same, but give the characters new names/costumes and they really wouldn't have needed to change much else. Doing that would've avoided all the constant comparisons, at least a little bit Weird Pumpkin fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Nov 24, 2021 |
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Nov 24, 2021 19:54
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Lamebot posted:https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7nbgk/netflixs-cowboy-bebop-isnt-supposed-to-be-good Could do without the obnoxious "oh woe, maybe this is the show we deserve in our horrible hellworld of 2021".
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Nov 24, 2021 20:04
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Holy cow this show sucks even worse than i'd imagined
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Nov 24, 2021 20:34
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For what it's worth I never would have found the original if it wasn't for the hype about the adaptation. I've bounced off the few other anime series I've tried (Castlevania, Altered Carbon) but I've enjoyed what I've seen so far of the original, maybe because it feels more Bladerunner or David Lynch than what I picture most anime as being.
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Nov 24, 2021 20:46
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Elvis_Maximus posted:It's definitely supposed to be different plot wise, but every time a company does this it always just leaves me thinking: did this need to get made? Or specifically for this show, did it need to be cowboy bebop? Strongly feel it's better to just accept this is going to happen and take adaptions at their own merit. Lord knows have more than enough adaptions of Sherlock Holmes, yet there will be countless more made. I can sit content that we got a perfect (imo) adaption of the books with Jeremy Brett, and everything else is sugar on top. We don't need more, but every so often when someone takes a swing with it and it works, such as the first season of the BBC's Sherlock, that's neat. When other's don't, ah well. Personally glad they didn't try to do something set in the world of of Cowboy Bebop. The world has a lot of character, but the core of it is about the characters. That Watchmen show worked well enough because Watchmen both takes place in our world, and the story has major world-altering events take place. The stakes/events of Cowboy Bebop are significantly smaller in scope.
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Nov 24, 2021 21:09
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The World Inferno posted:Strongly feel it's better to just accept this is going to happen and take adaptions at their own merit. I feel like there needs to be a distinction between something like the bolded above, or the countless adaptations of Shakespeare, or anything that has lasted long enough to legitimately become a part of a culture to the point that no one in living memory really has a codified mental attachment to "the original" and an adaptation of something more recent. I feel like there is a much easier time "taking something on it's own merits" when it's an adaptation of something so well trodden and established like Shakespeare vs something that is still recent enough that people remember the original like Ghostbusters/Bebop. There may also be something unique about adapting multiple times based on the same original text. Yes we have the original Sherlock books still to compare each adaptation to, but no one really tries to compare the adaptations to each other. I never see anyone complain about the Robert Downy Jr. version not being faithful to the one played by Benedict Cumberbatch for instance.
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Nov 24, 2021 21:51
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Lamebot posted:https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7nbgk/netflixs-cowboy-bebop-isnt-supposed-to-be-good Enjoying this new breed of critic who just complains about the layman offering their own criticism of things instead of just shutting up and paying me for my pointless, contrarian reviews. This is nowhere near the level of failure that the Death Note adaptation achieved, but it's frustrating to watch a show that's completely undermined by every aspect of its production. Casting's poor, the action is unexciting, elements from the original are misused or mishandled in a way that betrays a lack of understanding the source material. The worst example is grabbing What Planet is This for the opening fight scene when it comes out of nowhere and doesn't even have the right kind of energy for the scene at hand. Just grab good things that people remember and cram them down your throat while a producer forces a screenwriter to append buttercup or other dumb and pithy things to every line of dialogue. house of the dad fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Nov 24, 2021 |
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Nov 24, 2021 22:22
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a review of anything that needs to remind the viewer that 'the world is on fire' for context can go straight in the bin imo
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Nov 24, 2021 22:28
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My world's on fire. How 'bout yours? I watched Cowboy Bebop, now let's see how it scored
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Nov 24, 2021 22:44
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Q_res posted:I feel like the cupcakes nonsense, along with stuff like Faye saying "that's nutbags" (which the reporter almost immediately repeats, as if to reinforce that it's definitely a thing) is an attempt to emulate the bespoke/invented vocabulary of shows like nBSG, Firefly and Farscape. not sure the comparison works when the new BSG's invented vocabulary was just real world military jargon and a scifi channel-friendly replacement for the word 'gently caress'
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Nov 25, 2021 00:50
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Never watched Cowboy Bebop, but since I've seen a lot of friends and sites trashing on the live action Netflix adaptation I decided NOT to watch it (at least yet) and instead picked up watching the anime... and MAN. I do miss this style of animation. There's something really soothing and chill about it that recent animes just don't have.
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Nov 25, 2021 02:18
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Lamebot posted:https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7nbgk/netflixs-cowboy-bebop-isnt-supposed-to-be-good lol, but also, titles like those get my click every drat time. their too effective. The World Inferno posted:Strongly feel it's better to just accept this is going to happen and take adaptions at their own merit. if the industry is so braindead they need to adapt everything under the sun cause their out of ideas and/or need easy attention, then its pretty lame to judge it on "its own merits"
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Nov 25, 2021 02:43
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multijoe posted:a review of anything that needs to remind the viewer that 'the world is on fire' for context can go straight in the bin imo "the world is on fire" is a good reason to spend your time watching things you actually enjoy, imo. I turned this off halfway through the first episode and started watching the anime instead. Hadn't seen it in 12 years or so and it holds up; The pilot alone is such a sharper and better done thing than the remake's version, it's a really dramatic comparison.
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Nov 25, 2021 06:41
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Cocaine is Abel posted:So was Ed portrayed like that in the anime? I didn’t think there was anything particularly bad about the scene but I guess I get why the anime fans are super mad about it if they changed them around a lot of whatever Yeah. The people going nuts about that either don't remember the show at all or are 100% bad faith. That was exactly as annoying as Ed is in the anime, like identical. Which I don't think is a good idea, but you can't say it wasn't accurate. RedneckwithGuns posted:Based off of the reaction I'm seeing here and elsewhere along with watching it myself I think it's safe to say your ability to like this adaption is based off of how long it's been since you saw the anime. The longer it's been the better this seems and vice-versa. Eh. I finished rewatching the anime the day before this came out. My opinion no one cares about is: it's fine. Not great, better than I expected. I could've done with less of Vicious trying to push his skull out of his skin or whatever all was going on there. Episode 9 was good though, clearly he's being directed that way and isn't just a lovely actor. Biggest problem I had was completely neutering Faye. Didn't feel like she had any of the hardness of the character, and I was surprised they did the video so early. I don't hate her but I really wish they hadn't softened her so much and kept that for later like in the original. Jet's perfect. Spike grew on me. Anyway lol at this thread.
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Nov 25, 2021 07:39
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Hey I stopped reading around page 8 when everybody was chiming in to say they are joyless fucks that hate everything, but I just finished episode 7 and am really enjoying it so far! I think they have done a good job of writing the characters, there are lots of little moments of banter that I think capture the tone well. I especially loved the shower-bath-shower and how that was played for laughs later. Moments like that were what made the original, for me. Lots of background world building that acts as fanservice for anime-watchers, but subtle enough that it isn't overt and out of place. I'm also really enjoying that each episode seems to be something of an homage to various genres of American film, in the same way that the original celebrated Americana in general. My only gripe so far is that we spend too much time with Vicious. I'm not quite sure what they were going for with his character, but he comes across as neither a threatening force of nature nor a sympathetic anti-hero. If anything it has me wondering why (anime spoilers, possibly live action?) Spike gives a poo poo about him or Julia. They come across as trash people with no redeeming qualities. Maybe that tension will resolve in the next 3 eps, but other than that I am really liking this adaptation. Also special mention to Mustafa Shakir who is doing the most amazing Beau Billingslea impersonation. 
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Nov 25, 2021 08:03
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lezard_valeth posted:Never watched Cowboy Bebop, but since I've seen a lot of friends and sites trashing on the live action Netflix adaptation I decided NOT to watch it (at least yet) and instead picked up watching the anime... Agreed entirely, I really love that 70s-90s animation style. The backgrounds especially are consistently gorgeous and evocative, even when the show itself is trashy. I also like the low frame rates. Feels a bit dreamlike. I've not watched tons of anime. I like a lot of the Big Ones of that era, like GitS, Bebop, Patlabor, Akira, Alita. Legend of Galactic Heroes is the only anime I've seen that I think is genuinely brilliant from a non-animation perspective. But dang if I don't enjoy getting high, putting some music on, then putting on an episode of Bubblegum Crisis or something with the sound and subtitles off and just enjoying the loving awesome visuals
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Nov 25, 2021 10:02
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Just finished the season. We don't yet have the technology to make anime real.
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Nov 25, 2021 12:25
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Grand Fromage posted:Yeah. The people going nuts about that either don't remember the show at all or are 100% bad faith. That was exactly as annoying as Ed is in the anime, like identical. Which I don't think is a good idea, but you can't say it wasn't accurate. Honestly, I think it's too accurate. In the anime it worked well because she literally was a cartoon, but it doesn't seem to translate well into gritty live action. Granted, I have no idea how you could translate that character otherwise. I feel they would need to be rolling around on the ground, hanging from things, maybe exaggerating the cartooniness a bit more.
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Nov 25, 2021 12:51
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SpaceAceJase posted:Just finished the season. Obama lied?!?!
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Nov 25, 2021 12:56
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Grand Fromage posted:Yeah. The people going nuts about that either don't remember the show at all or are 100% bad faith. That was exactly as annoying as Ed is in the anime, like identical. Which I don't think is a good idea, but you can't say it wasn't accurate
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Nov 25, 2021 14:18
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Kazy posted:Honestly, I think it's too accurate. In the anime it worked well because she literally was a cartoon, but it doesn't seem to translate well into gritty live action. Granted, I have no idea how you could translate that character otherwise. I feel they would need to be rolling around on the ground, hanging from things, maybe exaggerating the cartooniness a bit more. Putting on my terrible arm chair director hat, if someone put a gun to my head and asked me what to do with Ed I would've said rewrite them instead of the other characters Have Ed become the quippy character that's sorta guiding them through the mission and leave the other characters to only doing the quipping thing occasionally or something Ed is otherwise impossible to do in live action without looking like.. well.. what this version came out being. Looking at the subreddit before the release you had tons of people being really mad that Ed wasn't shown or going to be in it or whatever and saying that Ed is there favorite character. Then those same people getting mad when Ed seems to be the one character they basically kept unchanged (in that one infamous infinitely long clip) On a general note though, after watching a little bit more I genuinely like Mustafa's Jet, and I think John's Spike is pretty good, the dude is putting in the best performance he can. It's a shame the script doesn't live up to it. I'll never be able to forgive the show for the murder of Faye Valentine though
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Nov 25, 2021 15:12
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I like the main three and wish the show featured them more instead of Vicious’s boring subplot. I like Cho’s Spike even though he’s far less chill than the real Spike but what keeps getting me is that I’m seeing a 50 year old man give these quips and act like an immature rear end in a top hat and it keeps making my brain go “what the gently caress is wrong with this middle aged man” in a way it wouldn’t if it was an actual 20something being that brand of dick. similarly his age was extremely distracting in the flashback episode. He and Vicious were both so obviously too old to have a character that looks maybe ten years older than them talk about how he’s mentoring them so he can one day retire. Julia is clearly meant to be young, since she’s depicted as being at the very start of her show biz career. So I’m guessing that rather than this Spike being in his forties, we’re just meant to pretend he’s 27. Otherwise his obsessing over a young woman is kinda uncomfortable. I suppose this isn’t really a complaint since I don’t know who I’d suggest casting instead of Cho and I like his performance, but his age is a weird distraction.
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Nov 25, 2021 15:59
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Hot Take: they didn’t change Faye’s character, they just moved her development up to a point where it didn’t have the same impact. The age of the actors doesn’t bother me at all: I hate the anime trope that life ends at 29 and that these people all somehow had lives and property by 23. That is definitely a product of the time the original was made... Hottest Take: this adaptation perfectly captures the tone and style of the original but the audience isn’t 15 year old stoners any more.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:37
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:The age of the actors doesn’t bother me at all: I hate the anime trope that life ends at 29 and that these people all somehow had lives and property by 23. That is definitely a product of the time the original was made... It’s not Cho’s age generally that is pinging me as weird, it’s the age paired with the bratty quips. If he didn’t talk like a Marvel/Buffy character that would solve most of the dissonance. Plenty of 50 year olds are sarcastic assholes. No 50 year old talks like that specifically.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:47
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My take is that when they were presented with the problem of how to expand the show from 20 minute episodes to 40 minutes they focused on just about all the wrong things.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:52
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Hot Take: they didn’t change Faye’s character, they just moved her development up to a point where it didn’t have the same impact. 
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Nov 25, 2021 18:00
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I mean, she spends most of one episode callously nonchalant about taking human lives and then most of another episode walking around with a bullet in her without a care. Please articulate your critique...
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Nov 25, 2021 18:48
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Lol that's literally the first time you see her face in the old show, and she proceeds to get captured second later after failing to kill any of the guys after her. It's like the old show was, in advance, satiring the excess of the new show
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Nov 25, 2021 18:55
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:I mean, she spends most of one episode callously nonchalant about taking human lives and then most of another episode walking around with a bullet in her without a care. Faye was cool in the original, and was not a walking quip factory. I don't mind quip-y writing generally, but this show takes it to the logical extreme where there are entire scenes that are more quip then dialogue and I think Faye gets it the worst of the rest of the cast. Though I think it really comes down to script more than anything Edit: though tbf, I freely admit that she was snarky and for some people always forget about that because they only focus on the cool scenes with her Weird Pumpkin fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 19:11
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I'm on episode 5. The show is silly and has a few issues, but I like it. Take out Vicious and his plotline and it'd be a good show.
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Nov 25, 2021 20:58
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What if instead of doing that, they just gave you way way more Vicious?
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Nov 25, 2021 22:54
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I did think the actor playing Vicious was pretty good when he had dialogue from the anime during the church sequence. I could see a good plotline for him being he starts as the Vicious from the anime but becomes more unhinged as time goes on.
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Nov 25, 2021 23:17
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I kinda like how Julia turned out, at least within the confines of this show. I mean, could you really say you're a good person if you're knowingly connected to the mob? I don't think so. you'd have to be a bit of a monster. like, are there "good" cops? doesn't looking the other way taint your soul? I say yes. so I think her taking over the Syndicate fits. She demonstrates her skills at deception pretty early on too, so the idea that she's innocent or good is kinda silly when you think about it. even in the anime imo i rewrote this post from many directions so sorry if it's kinda janky. I don't know why I spoilered all that either but whatever it makes my post more sexy and mysterious.
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Nov 26, 2021 00:26
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Andrew Koji woulda been a better spike imo
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Nov 26, 2021 08:26
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