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Russia's destiny lies to the west. It's against god himself to state or act otherwise. Russia should steward all Slavic people to their destiny Manning the iron furnaces in the saar.
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Nov 25, 2021 07:09
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Vasukhani posted:Cool, but lets operate in the realm of reality where Russia remains a sovereign state that desires to become more powerful Nah, let's operate in the realm of reality where non-Russia countries remain sovereign states that desire to have, you know, sovereignty and agency.
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Nov 25, 2021 07:12
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mmkay posted:Nah, let's operate in the realm of reality where non-Russia countries remain sovereign states that desire to have, you know, sovereignty and agency. Yes. All countries have agency. and they want to use that agency to put themselves in a better geostrategic position... oh gently caress... its back to neorealism... which means Russia is also a sovereign state that desires to become more powerful, just like the rest of them! We should base our assumptions on that! I'm glad we agree. wisconsingreg fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 07:17
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Vasukhani posted:Yes. All countries have agency. and they want to put themselves in a better geostrategic position... oh gently caress... its back to neorealism... which means Russia is also a sovereign state that desires to become more powerful, just like the rest of them! If you were simply arguing that the US won't commit serious forces to Ukraine, absolutely, I'd buy that. But you seem to be going a step further to dismiss as futile any effort to shore up the Western coalition. Given that said effort doesn't require all that much resourcing, what precisely does the US gain by simply handing Ukraine over on a silver platter? There's certainly tons to lose, particularly for the tens of thousands of Ukrainians Putin would murder.
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Nov 25, 2021 07:38
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https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/polish-tribunal-rules-european-rights-court-cannot-question-its-judges-2021-11-24/quote:WARSAW, Nov 24 (Reuters) - Poland's Constitutional Tribunal said on Wednesday that the European Court of Human Rights had no power to question its appointment of judges, rejecting a ruling by Europe's top human rights court in May.  Dumbasses in power are like a child checking what it can get away with.
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Nov 25, 2021 08:10
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sad question posted:https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/polish-tribunal-rules-european-rights-court-cannot-question-its-judges-2021-11-24/ I don’t think that’s quite an accurate description. They know rather well what they [i]can[i] do, and this just another step to reassert their grip over the country, and rub it in for the EU. Speaking of Poland, there also was https://www.politico.eu/article/outrage-over-polish-government-plan-to-register-each-pregnancy/ just recently.
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Nov 25, 2021 08:46
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I saw almost hundred new replies in the EE thread and for a while I was worried something actually happened.
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Nov 25, 2021 08:48
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Vasukhani posted:Yes. All countries have agency. and they want to use that agency to put themselves in a better geostrategic position... oh gently caress... its back to neorealism... which means Russia is also a sovereign state that desires to become more powerful, just like the rest of them! And the desire of the rest of the world combined says - gently caress Russia, Putin can go suck an egg. It's always interesting how in this "serious" analysis the desire of one dictator is real and must be slavishly obeyed, while the desires of the much more powerful collective standing against him don't count. If Luxembourg started yelling about conquering France because uniting the Francophonic countries is their geopolitical destiny, and threatened an invasion if Paris doesn't accept its ultimatum, I presume you'd also support their claims with grave concern and warn that if we don't capitulate to our Luxembourg overlords, we would regret it later - because the absurd overreach of the aggressors in setting up wildly unrealistic geopolitical goals far beyond their grasp is about the same in both cases. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 11:37
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steinrokkan posted:And the desire of the rest of the world combined says - gently caress Russia, Putin can go suck an egg. Russia has thousands of nuclear warheads. It's a lot more like two peer competitors just because of that. The desires of NATO do count. They desire not to start a conflict with Russia over Ukraine.
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Nov 25, 2021 13:50
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Letting Russia mess freely with Ukraine definitely will end there and not encourage hismessing with other post-Soviet states, nor likewise encourage other irredentist autocrats even inside of NATO like Erdogan, messing badly with the coalition's cohesion and stability.
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Nov 25, 2021 14:26
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Actually Vasukhani convinced me. We should give nuclear weapons to Ukraine and let Russia and Ukraine sort it out between themselves.
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Nov 25, 2021 14:40
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Grape posted:Letting Russia mess freely with Ukraine definitely will end there and not encourage hismessing with other post-Soviet states, nor likewise encourage other irredentist autocrats even inside of NATO like Erdogan, messing badly with the coalition's cohesion and stability.
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Nov 25, 2021 14:57
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Xarn posted:Actually Vasukhani convinced me. We should give nuclear weapons to Ukraine and let Russia and Ukraine sort it out between themselves. Give them *back* to Ukraine as they already had some, and were very responsible.
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Nov 25, 2021 14:59
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I know they've had some after USSR fell, but that's about it.  Also IIRC Russia got them, and somehow I don't think Russia is gonna give them back
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Nov 25, 2021 15:22
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Xarn posted:I know they've had some after USSR fell, but that's about it. Funny story they gave them up in exchange for an international agreement that stated Russia would respect their territorial boundaries and not use military or economic force to influence their politics.
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Nov 25, 2021 15:29
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Cugel the Clever posted:Russia loves Ukraine sooo much, it would literally destroy the world rather than have it happy with someone else Russia, standing on the Ukrainian border, switches on a boombox, blaring out And IIIIiiiiiiiiiIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII will alwayyyyyyyyyys Xarn posted:I know they've had some after USSR fell, but that's about it. Depends on what sorta giving back we're talkin' here :clancychat:
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Nov 25, 2021 15:43
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Cugel the Clever posted:Second-order effects?! In my geopolitics?? No, no, see, there's only Russia, Ukraine, and America and since Russia loves Ukraine sooo much, it would literally destroy the world rather than have it happy with someone else, so the US just must accept this and stop wasting so much effort protesting. Then everyone* wins! The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must except organizing to balance the strong, who is feeding these crazy ideas into your head??? Beep boop, so simple. I am not explaining myself well because I am so stupid. Also, neither side desires to destroy the world, but Russia will not back down on core interests and competition on core interests can lead to unintended escalation. There are basically 3 outcomes. US agrees for mutual defense with Ukraine -- US refuses to allow this so its not really worth considering. Biden has made it clear that Ukraine is not joining NATO on the short-term, more over, Euro members have even stronger disagreements to a possible Ukraine membership. US continues to support Ukraine in minor ways, but makes no concrete action -- This is the worst outcome. Russia continues to view Ukraine as an existential threat and Ukraine is encouraged to fight a battle it cannot win a la Georgia 2008 to make a nice point about how important NATO is. The burning ruins of holy sophia will serve as a nice reminder to meet your defense/GDP levels. US and Russia enforce Ukrainian neutrality as in the case of Austria and Finland. Suslov says this would be an acceptable outcome for Russia in that webinar I linked. There is no generalized war and Ukraine remains an independent sovereign nation. Not that buffer states are not areas of competition, but a such a solution would assure that this competition remains below the level of war. This would also be a chance to reemphasize red lines. This isn't conceding to Russia, this is making red-lines apparent and maintaining credibility.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:04
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Grape posted:Letting Russia mess freely with Ukraine definitely will end there and not encourage hismessing with other post-Soviet states, nor likewise encourage other irredentist autocrats even inside of NATO like Erdogan, messing badly with the coalition's cohesion and stability. There is a reason the US cares a lot about what happens in Ukraine and is not actually concerned with actions of russia in central asia and the south caucasus if only there was some term for that, certain areas where states had predominant authority
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Nov 25, 2021 16:08
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Vasukhani posted:I am not explaining myself well because I am so stupid. Also, neither side desires to destroy the world, but Russia will not back down on core interests and competition on core interests can lead to unintended escalation. We should make bets on how many years it will take for this same post but for Moldova.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:08
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i think the solution to this conundrum is to give a couple hundred nukes to both ukraine and cuba
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Nov 25, 2021 16:14
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Bel Shazar posted:We should make bets on how many years it will take for this same post but for Moldova. Nah the US should also promise to support Moldova, imply that they are on the path to join a balancing coalition, not allow them to join it, and then act shocked when they get invaded by the target of that coalition. That will help US credibility and is a better outcome than a solution that avoids war and maintains credibility.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:16
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I like how you still just agree that Russia can't help itself but invade other countries, and we should let it.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:23
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Truga posted:i think the solution to this conundrum is to give a couple hundred nukes to both ukraine and cuba I'm sure the people in this thread would've supported Soviet nukes in Cuba in 1961, assuming their model has any principle.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:25
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Xarn posted:I like how you still just agree that Russia can't help itself but invade other countries, and we should let it. Nah we should establish a coalition to balance against it...... What NATO shouldn't do is knowingly sacrifice third countries to emphasize how useful it is. Asking states very nicely to stop behaving like states has an 0% effectiveness wisconsingreg fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 16:27
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Vasukhani posted:Nah the US should also promise to support Moldova, imply that they are on the path to join a balancing coalition, not allow them to join it, and then act shocked when they get invaded by the target of that coalition. That will help US credibility and is a better outcome than a solution that avoids war and maintains credibility. I'm trying to remember what US credibility is. I think we had some deposited in Crimea once.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:36
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Vasukhani posted:What NATO shouldn't do is knowingly sacrifice third countries to emphasize how useful it is. Vasukhani posted:Asking states very nicely to stop behaving like states has an 0% effectiveness
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Nov 25, 2021 16:44
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Maybe we can have a conference in Warsaw and create a pact of some sort to stand as a bulwark against NATO
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Nov 25, 2021 16:48
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Cugel the Clever posted:Right, that's why the US is exerting a little effort to make sure Russia knows there will be meaningful costs to belligerence now and in the future, thus shoring up its interests. Stop asking the US to stop behaving like a state! Coming to a meaningful agreement benefits the US's core interests more than the extra two tanks which a Ukrainian javelin can take out. The lesson from the nk war should reiterate that equipment doesnt mean much without air superiority. Nothing short of providing Ukrainian with an airforce or nuclear weapons will meaningfully change the calculus. speaking of... https://twitter.com/AlexKokcharov/status/1463221816307208196
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Nov 25, 2021 16:48
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Funny story they gave them up in exchange for an international agreement that stated Russia would respect their territorial boundaries and not use military or economic force to influence their politics. That agreement was PURE IMPERIALISM aimed against THE REASONABLE AND PEACE-LOVING RUSSIAN HAVEN OF FREEDOM AND WHOLESOMENESS
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Nov 25, 2021 16:49
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Pretty simple, the only countries with agency are China and the US so Russia has to choose and submit to occupation and give up its nukes to one or the other and maybe there'll be some loans. Thus is inevitable because strong spheres of influence hurr durr Also if you don't submit then WW3 
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Nov 25, 2021 16:49
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Vasukhani posted:Coming to a meaningful agreement benefits the US's core interests more than the extra two tanks which a Ukrainian javelin can take out. Nothing short of providing Ukrainian with an airforce or nuclear weapons will meaningfully change the calculus. The video you posted is active armor. It's not new.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:51
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:The video you posted is active armor. It's not new. https://twitter.com/KofmanMichael/status/1463260417304768522
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Nov 25, 2021 16:52
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Vasukhani posted:Russia has thousands of nuclear warheads. It's a lot more like two peer competitors just because of that. The desires of NATO do count. They desire not to start a conflict with Russia over Ukraine. You whole posting appears to be an outrraged - outraged, I tell you - response to the fact that, contrary to your wishes, NATO does have an actual interest in stopping Russia from enslaving Ukraine and the Baltics, wjich is very concerning and must be nipped in the bud, soooo... That's a kinda big contradiction.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:52
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Cugel the Clever posted:Right, that's why the US is exerting a little effort to make sure Russia knows there will be meaningful costs to belligerence now and in the future, thus shoring up its interests. Stop asking the US to stop behaving like a state! No, this is just warmongering. Unlike invading neighboring countries, that's promoting peace.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:52
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steinrokkan posted:You whole posting appears to be an outrraged - outraged, I tell you - response to the fact that, contrary to your wishes, NATO does have an actual interest in stopping Russia from enslaving Ukraine and the Baltics, wjich is very concerning and must be nipped in the bud, soooo... That's a kinda big contradiction. Lumping Ukraine in with the Baltics is pretty silly. One has a mutual defense treaty, the other was publically told it does not have such a treaty by the leader of the bloc this year. NATO will not commit to defending Ukraine, the biggest consequence the US will enforce is SWIFT expulsion and the like.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:56
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Vasukhani posted:There is a reason the US cares a lot about what happens in Ukraine and is not actually concerned with actions of russia in central asia and the south caucasus The difference is that nobody here would bend over backwards to do their best impression of Rudolf Hess in excusing Americans forcing countries to live under their NATURAL and JUSTIFIED and NECESSARY sphere of influence by violence, meanwhile in the case of Russia the opposite is the case.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:57
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Just a reminder that the military-security ghouls controlling the russian state are not Russia. Russians don't want war with goddamn Ukraine either and I salute comrades Macron and Johnson for standing in solidarity with the russian people against the evil bunker gnome that killed a million russians with his handling of covid and now wants to kill more sending them to fight a brotherly nation
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Nov 25, 2021 16:58
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:The video you posted is active armor. It's not new. I believe they are referring to the (presumably) not-active grate that has been welded on top of the active armor.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:58
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The grate is for Bayraktar TB2.
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Nov 25, 2021 17:00
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cinci zoo sniper posted:The grate is for Bayraktar TB2. I liked the theory that, combined with a Mk 1 Tarp, it keeps the rain off.
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Nov 25, 2021 17:03
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