|
The Modern Leper posted:I forget... does Kate come from money in the comics? Yeah her family is loaded and a regular part of New York high society.
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 15:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 08:01 |
|
|
Bust Rodd posted:Tony Stark didn’t take classes to become a super genius, that’s not how being a genius works in Marvel. Peter Parker grew up in a 2-story walk up in Queens and he’s basically just as smart, canonically, as Stark (and eventually even Richards and Banner). Are you claiming that Tony's intelligence is innate just because we never got a flashback to him in school or something? Well, outside that one VR stunt showing him procrastinating on schoolwork in Civil War. His father was a tech billionaire, and explicitly wanted his son to succeed him in that regard. He absolutely paid for Tony to have a premium education. Peter is nearly as smart, and (a) is shown to have worked for it in educational terms and (b) is much poorer. Not poor, but definitely not rich by any stretch either. So even in just those two characters we already have a wide disparity in what kind of social background can lead to super smarts. On the other hand, Kate might have been rich but she also demonstrably put in a lot of dedication over the last ten odd years and she's still less skilled than her new stepfather and definitely far less skilled than someone who spent a lifetime doing it like Hawkeye. The fact she was rich doesn't make dedication "soft" and easy; it still requires...well, dedication. And dismissing it as unimportant is just weird. It sounds less like you have a problem with the character, and more like you have a problem with the show that you are trying to find reasons to justify between "Hawkeye is just Disney trying to satisfy chuds; even though chuds would hate a story about a man passing his mantle onto a woman" and this with Kate. You can just not like a show. Bust Rodd posted:To clarify, I am just begging the show to give me something to like about her or relate to her over! Not to overshare, but I was literally her age when my dad died (cancer, not aliens) and even with that I’m still just finding her character a completely smooth surface with nothing to hold on to in terms of relatability. I was hoping the dog would be that, but the poor pooch doesn’t get enough screen time! And boy oh boy, ain’t no dog farts like cheese pizza dog farts, good thing her apartment burned down because they were walking into a chemical attack otherwise! My father is still alive, happily, but I have no problem empathizing with her because seeing a child wandering around a house calling for her parents as she gets frantic due to the fear of the external attack and anxiety of the fact her parents aren't responding is enough for me to want her to succeed. It's simple, but it worked for me. The show has done plenty to make Kate relatable between that, her father dying, her mother re-marrying, being in trouble at school for a stupid prank going wrong and being overly confident to the point that it gets her in trouble because she's young and headstrong about how good she is. At that point it's less on the show, and more on you if you still have a problem relating to her. Which sounds confrontational, but isn't meant to be. You're not going to empathize with everyone, and that's not really a fault or problem in and of itself.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 15:22
|
|
|
They just started a new comic where her estranged sister who runs the family business hires her to investigate a shady spa for CEOs and Real Housewives types
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 15:22
|
|
|
Watched 15-20 minutes of Hawkeye and shut it off. Very boring stuff. But its equally as bad as the other mcu shows. This is par for the course with these mcu tv shows I feel. Nothing exciting, just by the numbers. Awful dialogue constantly.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 15:45
|
|
|
The REAL Goobusters posted:Watched 15-20 minutes of Hawkeye and shut it off. Very boring stuff. But its equally as bad as the other mcu shows. This is par for the course with these mcu tv shows I feel. they're all bad but this is very, very bad. hope it gets cancelled honestly
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 17:53
|
|
|
Actually I take that back, Agent Carter owned
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 17:55
|
|
|
i for one love watching every single entry in a series of things that i have never enjoyed mmmm-mm
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 18:01
|
|
|
TychoCelchuuu posted:Kate Bishop is basically the #1 villain in the MCU as far as I'm concerned, because she has been leaving that dog alone for massive stretches of time. Completely unconscionable. Unless her character arc is "learning how not to abuse animals" she'll never be a hero to me. A street dog in a warm apartment with food is going to sleep for weeks. Pizza Dog is fine. What's getting me is how they're letting that street dog lay all over her aunt's nice furniture. That dog has to be dirty as hell.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 18:49
|
|
|
The REAL Goobusters posted:Watched 15-20 minutes of Hawkeye and shut it off. Very boring stuff. But its equally as bad as the other mcu shows. This is par for the course with these mcu tv shows I feel. It's Marvel. I mean, do you complain when your Chipotle isn't authentically Mexican? The whole point of MCU is you know within a spectrum what your gonna get. That's why it consistently succeeds whereas even good DCU movies fail at the BO like The Suicide Squad because apparently no one was asking for a hard R sequel to a goofy superhero movie. Consistency is its own quality.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 19:03
|
|
|
Nikumatic posted:i for one love watching every single entry in a series of things that i have never enjoyed mmmm-mm “ This one sucks too, gently caress!” I, Goldbee say this having seen seven of the ninth Star Wars movies.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 19:04
|
|
|
One thing that struck me was how MCU PTSD only comes from personal relationships, never combat. Hawkeye's broken up about Nat, Wanda's upset about Vision, Tony about his folks, etc. All of those loves one died violently, but none of the other cast members are ever allowed to be traumatized about a life of endless conflict. Super-powered murder-punching has to be light-hearted fun. Not that I want anything close to DC. God no! But it does feel like a whole aspect of the MCU cast has been neutered.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 19:05
|
|
|
Squidster posted:One thing that struck me was how MCU PTSD only comes from personal relationships, never combat. Hawkeye's broken up about Nat, Wanda's upset about Vision, Tony about his folks, etc. All of those loves one died violently, but none of the other cast members are ever allowed to be traumatized about a life of endless conflict. Super-powered murder-punching has to be light-hearted fun. You mean like how Bucky is haunted by everything he did as the Winter Soldier, or how Clint can't even get through a nice vacation with his family without feeling the need to play spy?
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 19:11
|
|
|
Also Sam’s entire character and backstory and his profession as a VA councilor
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 19:13
|
|
|
Thundercracker posted:It's Marvel. I mean, do you complain when your Chipotle isn't authentically Mexican? The whole point of MCU is you know within a spectrum what your gonna get. That's why it consistently succeeds whereas even good DCU movies fail at the BO like The Suicide Squad because apparently no one was asking for a hard R sequel to a goofy superhero movie. Consistency is its own quality. Did Suicide Squad fail? I didn't hear anything about it till now, but checking the box office returns it is pretty dismal at only $167 odd million worldwide on a budget of $185 million; but even MCU successes like Shang Chi aren't making huge amounts in lockdown times at about 2.5 times the Suicide Squad return ($430 million to $167 million) when both reportedly cost about the same to make, while Suicide Squad had a simultaneous release on HBO as well as in the cinema. So I'd assume the HBO views would be taken into consideration too, and I don't think there's any real way to measure that since HBO don't release official numbers, do they? Some crowd called Samba noted it's gotten more views than any other DC movie on the service, but I don't know how much that means financially versus a cinema release.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 19:14
|
|
|
Squidster posted:
Shang clearly has a lot of hangups about combat. But I think for a universe about action fights, characters shouldn’t be afraid and fearful of action and fights. Just like how on great brit bake off, they don’t suddenly stop cooking anything because of food insecurity.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 19:14
|
|
|
Bucky is haunted by killing innocents against his will, not engaging in constant violence. He's happy to do sweet kick-flips and robot punches any day of the week. I'd argue Clint is being portrayed as 'too old for this poo poo' rather than having any questions about being in an environment where people hurt each other 24/7.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 19:15
|
|
|
ymmv, but I’m liking Hawkeye better than FATWS or Loki thus far. the low-stakes “Marvel Studios does a Marvel Netflix show” vibe is mostly working for me
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 19:17
|
|
|
Squidster posted:Bucky is haunted by killing innocents against his will, not engaging in constant violence. He's happy to do sweet kick-flips and robot punches any day of the week. I'd argue Clint is being portrayed as 'too old for this poo poo' rather than having any questions about being in an environment where people hurt each other 24/7. Clint may not be questioning it but his daughter clearly is.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 19:17
|
|
|
Squidster posted:Bucky is haunted by killing innocents against his will, not engaging in constant violence. He's happy to do sweet kick-flips and robot punches any day of the week. I'd argue Clint is being portrayed as 'too old for this poo poo' rather than having any questions about being in an environment where people hurt each other 24/7. How is PTSD over "killing innocents" about personal relationships rather than about combat?
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 19:19
|
|
|
Bust Rodd posted:Also Sam’s entire character and backstory and his profession as a VA councilor I do agree that the needs of the genre require that people get into sweet fights ( and I do love my sweet fights. ) I'd just like to see some more reluctant badasses, or some civvies who find this kind of hosed up. I enjoyed the more grounded take on violence in some of the Netflix shows. tsob posted:How is PTSD over "killing innocents" about personal relationships rather than about combat? \/\/\/\/\/\/ Yeah, that's fair. I just find the MCU's treatment of casual violence weird, but in fairness that's endemic to comics, cop shows, sitcoms, tv in general, movies, news media... Squidster fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Nov 26, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 19:23
|
|
|
I don't disagree that it's melodramatic, but I do think classifying "killing innocents" as being about personal relationships rather than actual combat is just plain silly.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 19:25
|
|
|
Bust Rodd posted:“Spending Your Life Training” is a completely reasonable approach to Marvel heroism, that’s how Shang-Chi and Black Widow got here, but notice how when you have physical specimens like that their backstories are always not just tragic, but also brutal and painful and prolonged to be full of torture? Isn’t that the difference? Bishop is kind of upending that existing Marvel paradigm by saying “it’s not the tragic backstory that inspires you to push yourself to super human limits”, because her “tragic backstory” is just like one really bad day and then a life of soft pink luxury vs her entire childhood being a nightmare of psychological and physical torture. I feel like someone at Marvel kind of agrees, since they edited some B-Roll from a later episode into the child-Kate scenes to make it seem like she was already some kind of child archery prodigy:   The bow she hasn't asked her mom to buy yet is hanging on the wall, and she's got an archery trophy from 2016, despite it only being 2012.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 20:02
|
|
|
tsob posted:Did Suicide Squad fail? I didn't hear anything about it till now, but checking the box office returns it is pretty dismal at only $167 odd million worldwide on a budget of $185 million; but even MCU successes like Shang Chi aren't making huge amounts in lockdown times at about 2.5 times the Suicide Squad return ($430 million to $167 million) when both reportedly cost about the same to make, while Suicide Squad had a simultaneous release on HBO as well as in the cinema. So I'd assume the HBO views would be taken into consideration too, and I don't think there's any real way to measure that since HBO don't release official numbers, do they? Some crowd called Samba noted it's gotten more views than any other DC movie on the service, but I don't know how much that means financially versus a cinema release. It's hard to gauge COVID numbers but SS was definitely considered a huge bomb in theaters by everyone in the media. I admit it also might be opening at height of Delta.The closest metric I could go by is that Dune is doing almost 400million in world wide box office. Which, if you consider an IP that's been not a thing for 50 years versus one that's a direct sequel to a movie that made almost 1 billion just a few years ago pretty damning
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 20:44
|
|
|
Thundercracker posted:It's hard to gauge COVID numbers but SS was definitely considered a huge bomb in theaters by everyone in the media. I admit it also might be opening at height of Delta.The closest metric I could go by is that Dune is doing almost 400million in world wide box office. Which, if you consider an IP that's been not a thing for 50 years versus one that's a direct sequel to a movie that made almost 1 billion just a few years ago pretty damning Suicide Squad coming out right when people were starting to get serious about Delta is one of the main reasons it didn't do great. A lot of those articles that came out around the time it was released were delusional with the world. (though some weren't.) Another was the title. There were way too many people that thought it was a recut of the previous movie.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 20:47
|
|
|
Spacebump posted:Suicide Squad coming out right when people were starting to get serious about Delta is one of the main reasons it didn't do great. A lot of those articles that came out around the time it was released were delusional with the world. (though some weren't.) Another was the title. There were way too many people that thought it was a recut of the previous movie. Yeah. That's why I mentioned it was a good movie. I saw and really liked it for what it was. But it had a lot going against it. Trading up from a goofy PG-13 to not only an R but a James Gunn R I feel though still has to be one of the bigger reasons it bombed. Like with Marvel you know you can take your kid to see it with almost no risk. But The SS was hilariously cynical and gory.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 20:57
|
|
|
I didn't love the first two episodes. It's way too early to throw the whole show in the trash, but as first impressions go, Hawkeye has the weakest intro off all of the 2021 D+ shows. The pacing sucks, like the auction house scene and the larping scene felt like they went on forever. They've also spent way too much time around Kate's familial relationships and haven't really given us any glimpses about why we should even care about any of these people.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 21:41
|
|
|
Hawkeye begs the question “what kind of Marvel movie can we make with basically no budget, shooting the entire thing in the hotel I stayed in last April”
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 21:45
|
|
|
Suicide Squad released in theaters and on HBO Max simultaneously, so the box office numbers are going to be wildly skewed.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 22:25
|
|
|
Nameless Pete posted:Suicide Squad released in theaters and on HBO Max simultaneously, so the box office numbers are going to be wildly skewed. Yeah, but the counterpoint is that DUNC did the same and outperformed SS by quite a bit.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2021 22:32
|
|
|
Firebert posted:I didn't love the first two episodes. It's way too early to throw the whole show in the trash, but as first impressions go, Hawkeye has the weakest intro off all of the 2021 D+ shows. The pacing sucks, like the auction house scene and the larping scene felt like they went on forever. They've also spent way too much time around Kate's familial relationships and haven't really given us any glimpses about why we should even care about any of these people. This is kind of a fascinating complaint. Like... they should make you care about Kate and her family by... showing less of them and their relationships?
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2021 00:24
|
|
|
I’m enjoying the live action remake of Matt Fraction’s Hawkeye run. Pizza dog? Track Suit mafia? Bro, I love it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2021 00:37
|
|
|
Bust Rodd posted:Hawkeye begs the question “what kind of Marvel movie can we make with basically no budget, shooting the entire thing in the hotel I stayed in last April” One of those hotels with a Broadway theater
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2021 01:41
|
|
|
Gaz-L posted:This is kind of a fascinating complaint. Like... they should make you care about Kate and her family by... showing less of them and their relationships? Usually when people ask "why should we care about these characters", it's because the reasons provide by the authors aren't enough, and just showing more of them isn't really going to work. Usually you'll want to make the character relatable in some way, and often show them struggling. Clint's got unresolved injuries from his job, a family to take care of, worries about public scrutiny, and the trauma of losing a friend during a worldwide event that reshaped society as he knows it. Even if none of those things are specifically relatable, those pile up enough to make him an underdog that the audience wants to root for. By comparison, Kate is introduced hearing her parents fighting over whether or not they'll need to sell their New York penthouse, and the majority of her coping with the death of her father is skipped over with an opening credits montage. When we meet her again as an adult, she's not only played by a different actress (which mentally disconnects Hailee Steinfeld from the events of the prologue), but she's shown to be a talented, confident adult who's going to a good school and faces no personal repercussions for her destructive pranks. Her family doesn't really have any relatable underdog qualities either. Her family's vaguely wealthy, and while it's implied they've had money trouble in the past, her mom is still living in the rebuilt New York penthouse that they were worried about having to sell, and the biggest conflict between the two characters is that her mom is getting remarried over a decade after her dad's death (the series takes place in 2023 or 2024, a year after Endgame's 5 year time skip). I think tying the series into Infinity War instead of Avengers 1 could have solved some of the problems.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2021 01:51
|
|
|
Golden Bee posted:One of those hotels with a Broadway theater Yeah. I find the accusations of cheapness weird because if you want cheap shoot in Georgia or Toronto. Shooting onsite in NYC is not cheap.Its a union town
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2021 01:53
|
|
|
Robot Style posted:Usually when people ask "why should we care about these characters", it's because the reasons provide by the authors aren't enough, and just showing more of them isn't really going to work. Usually you'll want to make the character relatable in some way, and often show them struggling. I feel like the 'kid actor isn't Hailee' argument is doing a LOT of heavy lifting in this argument. And I'm not sure the idea of "let's just bury the character in a mountain of trauma by having her lose both parents and end up homeless" is what they're aiming for in the somewhat light-hearted buddy action piece. At the end of the day, a lot of this is opinion, and it really seems like the deciding factor is Kate. If you buy the character's motivations or find her enjoyable/likeable, then you're in, if not, you're not.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2021 02:05
|
|
|
Robot Style posted:I think tying the series into Infinity War instead of Avengers 1 could have solved some of the problems. It would also have removed the central dynamic of Kate's actual characterization i.e. that she was very specifically inspired to archery by seeing Clint managing to defend the city despite being completely human while she couldn't find her parents in the middle of a major attack as a child. He gave her hope at a time when she was scared and felt hopeless. Not only is Clint barely in Avengers: Infinity War, but he has no role in actual blip for her to take inspiration from him, and he disappears to become Ronin in the immediate aftermath. Which, if she were to take inspiration from him then, would end up making her quite a different character. The story could be re-written around those obstacles, but you are basically asking for a completely different show at that point and the Kate it'd result in would probably be quite different too.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2021 02:11
|
|
|
tsob posted:The story could be re-written around those obstacles, but you are basically asking for a completely different show at that point and the Kate it'd result in would probably be quite different too. This is kinda the key. It's fair enough if people aren't enjoying the show, but a lot of the criticisms seem to be 'I'd like this way better if it was a totally different show with a different cast and story'. And whatever else this is, it's very much intended to be evoking the imagery and tone of a specific run on the comics, and introducing a specific very popular comics character in a way that has her feel consistent with the version on the page.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2021 02:15
|
|
|
This is getting to Sam should've asked Pepper Stark for a loan territory
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2021 02:15
|
|
|
oh yeah the fight choreography sucked rear end too
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2021 02:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 08:01 |
|
|
With all the hints leading to the new step-father being the villain, overall started to look at Kate's mother instead. Now I'm wondering: we saw the mother and father arguing over money and then the alien attack happens and we know the father is dead from the funeral. Could this be Kate's mother finding a way to make sure he dies for life insurance? They did never show him die.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2021 02:38
|
|
