|
Part of the problem with that whole push was the "legacy characters" they chose to inherit the mantel and the way they went about it. Riri Williams, coming out of nowhere to become Iron Man/Heart, leaps immediately to mind. Someone deciding Jenn suddenly needed to inherit the "Hulk" name is another. Edit: quote:JaneThor The fact that they pushed almost all these at once really hurt the chances of the characters at succeeding. And of them how many were actually organically being fitted into a natural role of assuming a mantel, and how many of them suddenly just did so for a story or two before it happened? Nilbop fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Nov 30, 2021 |
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 07:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 00:37 |
|
|
It is true JaneThor SamCap MilesSpidey VivVision MsMarvel SamNova NadiaWasp RiriIronman AmadeusHulk None have any relationship to other characters, I was obviously just being facetious
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 07:56
|
|
|
Not really sure how Riri's intro is any more egregious than, say, the introduction of Jaime Reyes?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 07:59
|
|
|
Jaime wasn't taking over for one of the most popular characters in the industry. He also wasn't doing it at a time when the same thing was happening to a half-dozen characters.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 08:02
|
|
|
idgi is your contention that there are no legacy characters, or that there are but you just don't like any of them
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 08:08
|
|
|
I'm not sure if you're disputing improper terminology or the quality of the comics at this point
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 08:08
|
|
|
Roth posted:I'm not sure if you're disputing improper terminology or the quality of the comics at this point Both, when we're talking about the push that came after Secret Wars.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 08:15
|
|
|
Here comes Nilbop to be Weird again
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 13:29
|
|
|
Riri owns and her time as Iron Man was excellent (as was Doom's.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 13:33
|
|
|
Party Boat posted:When did the spider symbol become a generic symbiote thing anyway? I'm sure I remember reading Mike Costa's Venom run and seeing a couple of panels of the symbiote planet with everything having that symbol on it. I half think some of this was due to Sony and the Movie industry of all things. Like before they made the Venom film, Sony wanted to make it but had to come up with a reason for Venom to look the way he does with no in-universe Spider-Man. (Because Venom is mostly cool look and you have to have that.) And in this script the idea was the Symbiots worshiped a Spider god and that's why Venom has the Spider-man logo. Maybe comic Marvel was then asked to plant the seeds for this in case Sony ever got around to making this version of Venom. (This was long before the Tom Hardy Venom film that just ignored the Spider-man connection. )
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 14:00
|
|
|
Nilbop is right about this. It's not an issue with just one but collectively it was very clearly one of those editorial mandates that doesn't necessarily fit the flow of everything else.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 14:16
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:Nilbop is right about this. It's not an issue with just one but collectively it was very clearly one of those editorial mandates that doesn't necessarily fit the flow of everything else. Which books were bad, in your eyes, as I can't pick out one from that list that was universally panned except in bad faith?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 14:24
|
|
|
Gaz-L posted:Which books were bad, in your eyes, as I can't pick out one from that list that was universally panned except in bad faith? Captain America: Sam Wilson started off solid but became really bad really fast.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 15:18
|
|
|
JordanKai posted:Captain America: Sam Wilson started off solid but became really bad really fast. Oh right. That is a lot of words to say "was by Nick Spencer" though
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 16:03
|
|
|
The Question IRL posted:I half think some of this was due to Sony and the Movie industry of all things. The first "Spider-Man free" Venom movie went into development in March 2016, about a year after Sony/Marvel reached a deal to have Spider-Man in the MCU movies. The team that actually produced the Venom film were locked in by early 2017, and the film came out in October 2018. Donny Cates's Venom run started in May 2018, and Knull first appeared a month later, though the whole "your Spider is really my Knull Dragon!" reveal became explicit in the next two issues. I suppose it's possible that there was some sort of series of miscommunications that led Marvel Comics to do a big retcon to reveal the Venom symbol is actually a dragon symbol for the Symbiote God in comics that came out to synergize with a movie that was already locked and didn't mention any sort of symbiote god in order to plant the seeds for a years-old scrapped script about a Spider God, but that seems weird.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 16:09
|
|
|
To be honest I also think legacy characters struggle a bit when time is static. Like to go back Peter having a legacy character when the dude is in his late 20s is weird.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 16:34
|
|
|
Argue posted:IIRC at one point Miles says his memory of it comes and goes, which is probably how they explain that in some stories Miles has mentioned how weird it is, while in other stories he seems completely unaware about it. Considering how young he still is that means the vast majority of his life is mostly blank?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 16:58
|
|
|
Edge & Christian posted:Do you have a source for this? I'm not sure if the timeline really works. Sure. So looking around the very first "Spider-Man free" Venom script was actually written in 1997 by (who else) David Goyer. Here is the script. https://www.reddit.com/r/thevenomsite/comments/gr0kzz/1997_venom_movie_script_by_david_goyer/ And here is a breakdown of some of the stuff from it. I haven't read all the script, because it is god-awful. But the parts I did read had Venom with a white spider logo, spider like hosts and no Spider-man. https://www.cbr.com/venom-craziest-things-david-goyer-1997-script-never-knew-about-facts-details/ Now my theory always has been that some time between 1997 and 2016 that some Sony execs asked Marvel to make Venom have some non Spider-man reason for the spider motif just to synergize with their script. Reading all those leaked Sony emails from years ago point to this being their exact line of thinking.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 21:50
|
|
|
The Question IRL posted:Now my theory always has been that some time between 1997 and 2016 that some Sony execs asked Marvel to make Venom have some non Spider-man reason for the spider motif just to synergize with their script. Reading all those leaked Sony emails from years ago point to this being their exact line of thinking. I'm not sure that the Sony leaks suggested as much either, outside of "make a Venom film, maybe make it independent from Spider-Man": quote:The potential scale of the franchise is hinted at in an email from Juan Capdet. He proposed an ambitious slate of Spider-Man spinoffs, ranging from Venom to Kraven the Hunter to Black Cat. In his view, the movies should build up towards an Avengers-style crossover featuring Carnage as the main villain. However, it's unclear how seriously Sony took his suggestions; there's no email trail beyond the initial pitch, which was at least shared among key figures in the studio. Presumably, they took the discussions offline. Now obviously, Sony has produced two films featuring Venom where he doesn't have a spider/dragon symbol on his chest. It is entirely possible that after Sony/Marvel formalized the deal and were back on speaking terms that Marvel passed along Sony's directive to the comics division to come up with an origin for Venom/the Spider on Venom's Suit that didn't tie into Spider-Man. If they did it, they did it too late for it to be used for the first Venom film, and then when they made the second Venom film they didn't bother using the spider symbol or the justification that Sony requested they write into the comics for it. There doesn't seem to be any evidence for that, but it's possible.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2021 23:35
|
|
|
Edge & Christian posted:The Goyer script was written before Sony even had the rights to Spider-Man and scrapped before the first Sam Raimi Spider-Man film was made, I'm not sure why anyone would be using that as a blueprint for anything. Okay I will admit to being wrong about the timeline in so far as I assumed that Sony had the writes to all things Spider-man long before they did. But I do stand by my point that I am sure some film studio people (be they from Sony or somewhere else) asked Marvel to try and write some stories to make Venom just a td more independent from Spider-man for any future solo film. The proof in this is in how Goyer's script keeps a lot of Venom's comic design with changes to justify no Peter Parker. Even that quoted paragraph in your post showed it was an idea being floated around about doing Venom with no Spider-man. If the Sony email leaks show anything, it's how people in big corporation latch onto what is theirs and use it to make really stupid decisions. Like those emails where the guys in charge of the Spider-man division just say "can we not just pay Stan Lee to make up new Spider-man characters and let us own them?" The idea of Venom having some complicated reason for looking like a bigger, scarier Spider-man which doesn't involve Spider-man at all has all the stench of dumb Hollywood ideas all over it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2021 00:31
|
|
|
The Question IRL posted:But I do stand by my point that I am sure some film studio people (be they from Sony or somewhere else) asked Marvel to try and write some stories to make Venom just a td more independent from Spider-man for any future solo film. The proof in this is in how Goyer's script keeps a lot of Venom's comic design with changes to justify no Peter Parker. Even that quoted paragraph in your post showed it was an idea being floated around about doing Venom with no Spider-man. I am not arguing that Sony had (definite contractual, possible creative) desires to make a Venom movie separate from Spider-Man. The proof of that is that Sony Pictures has now produced two separate feature length motion pictures starring Venom that have no direct connection* to Spider-Man. Those two movies also feature Venom without a big spider/dragon symbol on his chest, which suggests to me that they aren't super concerned about coming up with dumb excuses for Venom to have a big spider/dragon symbol on his chest, much less pressuring Marvel Comics to generate in-comics excuses for them to not reference.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2021 01:41
|
|
|
Occam's razor - is it more likely to be a studio mandate plotted out decades ahead with a company that doesn't have any creative say at all in Marvel's business, or just a writer doing a thing? I unironically feel like Knull has broken this forum's collective brain in some weird way Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Dec 1, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2021 01:42
|
|
|
Yeah I know it's become SOP to blame everything on the films, but I really think people are overthinking the gently caress out of this Venom has a big spider because it used to be a Spider-Man costume other symbiotes also had spiders because half of them were formed out of bits of Venom, so the designers just slapped a spider on them, too then a bunch more symbiotes had spiders because, well, all the symbiotes people know have spiders on them, so we don't want these ones to stand out then Cates comes along and says "actually it was a dragon" because - like so many BSS posters - he got a stupid question stuck in his head ('why do all the symbiotes have a spider?') and tried to rationalize it in a comic book story, and "it's actually a dragon" sounded cool to him DivineCoffeeBinge fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Dec 1, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2021 01:59
|
|
|
Gaz-L posted:Which books were bad, in your eyes, as I can't pick out one from that list that was universally panned except in bad faith? I can't think of any time I could look at the full lineup of printed books and say they were all good, nevermind say that the only people criticizing them were done in bad faith.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2021 02:54
|
|
|
Not sure if there has ever been a time where DC or Marvel weren't publishing any bad comic books
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2021 03:57
|
|
|
that month last year when they just didn't put anything out at all
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2021 04:00
|
|
|
There was a couple months during Hickman’s Secret Wars that Marvel seemed to be firing on all cylinders. There’s always bad books though. Always.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2021 05:30
|
|
|
Uh, how did that turn into 'did Marvel put out a single bad title at that point'? I was clearly meaning the books starring the 7 or 8 characters mentioned?
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2021 21:19
|
|
|
I mean I’m not sure how saying putting out a bunch of new characters all at once is a bad idea, has to do with book quality in the first place. In this instance I don’t think the quality matters one way or another
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2021 21:25
|
|
|
How does the quality of the thing not matter?
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2021 23:36
|
|
|
I mean I thought your point was oversaturation. By pushing so many at once none had the chance to shine. I can’t think of any way quality can make your point coherent
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2021 23:50
|
|
|
Just red New Mutants #98 with the introduction of Deadpool, Domino and Gideon and the art strays into "off putting" several times.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 00:02
|
|
|
DivineCoffeeBinge posted:Yeah I know it's become SOP to blame everything on the films, but I really think people are overthinking the gently caress out of this I like to think that the Venom-derived symbiotes are all taking their cues about humans from what Venom learned with Peter, so they've got a firm but totally unfounded belief that the human race are all obsessed with spiders.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 00:04
|
|
|
A symbiote invasion story where they're all huge nerds about the minutiae of Peter Parker's life.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 01:03
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:I mean I thought your point was oversaturation. By pushing so many at once none had the chance to shine. This is kind of where I was coming from. I don't buy the over-saturation argument because if all (or even most) of the books are good, it shouldn't matter, right?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 01:52
|
|
|
Sure, if the books had all been amazing then that would be the most important thing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 05:15
|
|
|
So is Zdarsky's run on Daredevil over? I'll admit, I lost the plot a few times, mostly because I kept accidentally skipping issues. Did Electra's kid die? How is Matt out of prison? When did the Kingpin get remarried? Isn't Butch Kingpin's son? I thought Mike knew that Daredevil was Matt? Why is Mr. Fantastic fighting at street level? What does that last page imply? What about the clone Bullseyes?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 05:37
|
|
|
Gologle posted:So is Zdarsky's run on Daredevil over? I'll admit, I lost the plot a few times, mostly because I kept accidentally skipping issues. Did Electra's kid die? How is Matt out of prison? When did the Kingpin get remarried? Isn't Butch Kingpin's son? I thought Mike knew that Daredevil was Matt? Why is Mr. Fantastic fighting at street level? What does that last page imply? What about the clone Bullseyes? Did you miss the big splash page at the end that said to look forward to Devil's Reign? The run is not over yet.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 05:56
|
|
|
Gologle posted:So is Zdarsky's run on Daredevil over? I'll admit, I lost the plot a few times, mostly because I kept accidentally skipping issues. Did Electra's kid die? How is Matt out of prison? When did the Kingpin get remarried? Isn't Butch Kingpin's son? I thought Mike knew that Daredevil was Matt? Why is Mr. Fantastic fighting at street level? What does that last page imply? What about the clone Bullseyes? This makes it sound like you read every other issue The Daredevils power couple is a neat concept that I hope sticks around for a bit. I also hope Chip can eventually make the Hand interesting, which no one else has been able to do by my reckoning, which is baffling considering they're like, evil ninja wizards and poo poo
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 06:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 00:37 |
|
|
bessantj posted:Just red New Mutants #98 with the introduction of Deadpool, Domino and Gideon and the art strays into "off putting" several times. It's Rob Liefeld's world and we're all just living in it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 12:55
|
|