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magnus (under time pressure) made a big mistake with 36. Rc2, which allows Bxb4. But Ian let him off the hook and played Qd5 instead! Did he just miss it? For a moment, it looked like it wasnt gonna be a draw.
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Dec 3, 2021 17:30
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What the hell was Ra2 there? Nepo's gotta win on time here. EDIT: Nc5 to put pressure on the queen  Nepo just blew it, didn't he?
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Dec 3, 2021 17:30
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Both players make time control and I feel like white is winning.
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Dec 3, 2021 17:32
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That was really intense.
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Dec 3, 2021 17:33
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D34THROW posted:What the hell was Ra2 there? you dont actually win on time in a game like this. the opportunity was when magnus made a mistake with rd1 when he was running low on time, he was never going to actually flag
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Dec 3, 2021 17:33
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Zteuer posted:That was really intense. yeah that was awesome to watch
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Dec 3, 2021 17:34
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tfw the engine gives you five blunders in a row because you didn't loving take b4
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Dec 3, 2021 17:36
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Who was that dude in the white robe and what was he doing with Magnus? I've never watched championship chess before.
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Dec 3, 2021 17:42
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Those were some crazy swings right before the time control. But before that: Magnus: I am going to play an innovative opening and then trade QvRR. Stockfish: 0.0 basically a forced draw from move 8.
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Dec 3, 2021 17:46
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VictualSquid posted:Those were some crazy swings right before the time control. Not all equal are equal. Kramnik pegged the QvRR line as "white wins eventually" as soon as he saw it.
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Dec 3, 2021 17:48
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Hand Knit posted:Not all equal are equal. Kramnik pegged the QvRR line as "white wins eventually" as soon as he saw it.
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Dec 3, 2021 17:55
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VictualSquid posted:Yes, exactly that makes it funny. Stockfish thinks it is more drawish/equal then even a normal championship game. All humans love it as a tense game. maybe stockfish saw a potential perpetual check down the line or something
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Dec 3, 2021 17:58
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D34THROW posted:Who was that dude in the white robe and what was he doing with Magnus? I've never watched championship chess before. An Arbiter and he gave him the score-sheet to sign, at least according to Anand's commentary.
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Dec 3, 2021 18:00
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Frankly it's more interesting to follow the game without evaluation bars even if I have no idea who's better, you look at the position and see play, but the engine goes "nah" and it's easy to dismiss what's happening. Also Americans poisoned the world with their anti-draw mentality, eww, draws are fine (as long as it's not a 14-move forced draw, the bunt of chess).
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Dec 3, 2021 18:05
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Svidler and Kramnik seem to have decided that white's best way forwards is to sacrifice an exchange to clean up black's queenside pawn, win black's h-pawn in the process, and then try and convert RN4P against Q2P. e: These analysis lines are amazing. Black queens the pawn but white gets a mate threat that black can only parry by sequentially sacrificing all his pieces to force a stalemate.
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Dec 3, 2021 18:18
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Nepo maybe going all in to clear out white's pawns, but it sounds like a lot of the casters think the line is winning for Carlsen.
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Dec 3, 2021 18:51
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d=50 Stockfish says white is winning here by like +0.5
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Dec 3, 2021 18:54
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Dias posted:d=50 Stockfish says white is winning here by like +0.5 if that line is anything like what someone told Svidler the computer line is, lol if Nepo sees it. Some completely inhuman moves, like playing Bb2 because if white takes it with Rxb2, black has Qe1+ forking the other rook on a4.
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Dec 3, 2021 19:00
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Hand Knit posted:if that line is anything like what someone told Svidler the computer line is, lol if Nepo sees it. Some completely inhuman moves, like playing Bb2 because if white takes it with Rxb2, black has Qe1+ forking the other rook on a4. The flipside of looking at the engine analysis is that you appreciate that Nepo and Carlsen are walking a tightrope. Draw now I guess, welp.
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Dec 3, 2021 19:14
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White with the initiative now. Black has to answer some very hard questions.
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Dec 3, 2021 19:42
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I can appreciate how stressful playing an even endgame for advantage in the World Chess Championship must be at least, oof. edit: Magnus is keeping this alive, drat Dias fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Dec 3, 2021 |
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Dec 3, 2021 20:01
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I guess Carlsen is very confident in this position, but it kind of feels less winning than the last one. But also this position probably has another 40-50 moves in it. And they have to play again tomorrow. e: I wonder if Carlsen wants to put the N on f3, the R on e2, and just start pushing the e-pawn.
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Dec 3, 2021 20:21
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This game is pretty cool. I'm glad fabi found the bishop on the 2nd idea. Did Magnus give Nepo a chance for advantage in the midgame? It wasn't clear to me. Then the endgame they got into! Fun stuff. Khorne fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Dec 3, 2021 |
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Dec 3, 2021 20:47
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 I usually go for Caro Kann a lot as Black, or a similar pawn structure like Slav or Semi Slav if they go for a queen's pawn opening. One thing I started doing more after feedback from this thread was moving my white bishop to kingside before advancing my e pawn. Is there any way for me to tell if it's a good idea to instead lock my white bishop away with e6? Here it was the best move, because it turns out that I was leaving my queenside pawns undefended after bishop takes knight, rook takes bishop. The opponent didn't see it either though because we were playing bullet.
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Dec 3, 2021 20:57
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Magnus is a computer, man.
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Dec 3, 2021 21:08
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(as of move 132) this endgame is shaping up really badly for Ian! i don't think he can stop white's pawns
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Dec 3, 2021 21:09
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Helianthus Annuus posted:(as of move 132) this endgame is shaping up really badly for Ian! i don't think he can stop white's pawns There are few enough pieces that you can check it with a tablebase now. And it's a win for white. But, of course, that requires play from both players. e: e6 is a very concrete move by Carlsen. I wonder if he sees the end of the line.
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Dec 3, 2021 21:10
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I’ve only been able to follow this with that evaluation bar, because just about everything they play is completely intractable to me.
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Dec 3, 2021 21:14
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What an epic Magnus squeeze, holy poo poo
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Dec 3, 2021 21:16
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Dec 3, 2021 21:17
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The first championship win in something like 5 years.
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Dec 3, 2021 21:18
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VictualSquid posted:The first championship win in something like 5 years. November 24, 2016 Carlsen-Karjakin game 9.
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Dec 3, 2021 21:20
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I legit cheered a little with that first pawn move to make sure there wasn't a draw by moves without pawns or captures. Hot drat, what a game.
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Dec 3, 2021 21:25
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Hand Knit posted:e: e6 is a very concrete move by Carlsen. I wonder if he sees the end of the line. I have zero idea how he actually thinks but that's why I was in favor of e6. I'm not good enough to calculate whether kg5 is a draw or win in the brief time the position was active (or at all probably lol), but I saw some black response that looked tedious/drawish while e6 didn't seem to close any doors. Khorne fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Dec 3, 2021 |
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Dec 3, 2021 21:25
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I don't think I've ever seen Carlsen look as tired as he did in the post game interview
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Dec 3, 2021 21:27
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Also, that's an absolutely incredible practical win. With how many people have come to chess in the past few years, and follow the games with the computer eval, it's a great way to really show of all the ways human chess exceeds what the computer can see. This game was "equal" for about 120 of its 136 moves, but there were so many different types of equality. Probably the best world championship match since Anand-Kramnik game 5.
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Dec 3, 2021 21:28
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so when did it all go wrong for black? After looking at what the computer thinks, it looks like the wheels came off when black played 72... Ba7 instead of Ba5, Bc7, or Bd8. Ba7 let white push the bishop around with the rooks. Eventually, white gets two pawns and the bishop for white's spare rook, leaving black with just the king and queen to try and stop white's connected passed pawns (computer can do it, but very hard for a human). It was still a draw according to the tablebases, but seems really hard for a human to find moves for black. On move 130, black needed to hit white's rook on f5 with his queen. The tablebases say Qb1 or Qc2 are the ONLY drawing moves, and everything else loses. I'm sure the draw is long and insane -- even stockfish cant see how to draw it without consulting the tablebases (it thinks the Qb1 or Qc1 are +1.0 for white, and it wants to play Qa1 instead, which is losing). Anyway, he hit the rook from the other side with 130... Qe6, and it seems like the problem must be that now the queen can't get behind white's pieces anymore, and the pawns are unstoppable, with or without help from the tablebases. Helianthus Annuus fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Dec 3, 2021 |
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Dec 3, 2021 21:46
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That was an awesome game.
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Dec 3, 2021 21:47
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I'm curious about two things: 1) How many chess players in the world would have been able to win that against Nepo after black's last pawn was traded off (so Q+K vs R+N+2P+K). I mean, is this something that pretty much nobody besides Carlsen could have pulled of, or is it a case where white can't really lose anymore so most GM would eventually be able to convert it? 2) Whether this will break agadmator's record for longest recap video of a chess game. (no idea what the record is)
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Dec 3, 2021 21:54
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 21:53 |
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Helianthus Annuus posted:so when did it all go wrong for black? There are different ways of answering this. One way of looking at it is when black played 25...Rac8 instead of 25...b4. The computer evaluation is largely unaffected but it creates a persistent imbalance that favours white. One of the consequences of this imbalance is that from this point onwards, whatever black plays has to be concretely working. "Neutral" lines allows white to consolidate and eventually win because the rooks (once coordinated) provide far superior activity and control to the queen. This is the point in the game that Kramnik said that white wins eventually. Another way of looking at it, probably the least fair way, is that it went wrong for black when he missed the various wins in the time scramble towards the first time control. After Carlsen blunders with 33.Rd1, black is concretely winning for a stretch before punting with 36...Qd5. After this there is a long stretch of play where Carlsen gradually improves his position and Nepomniachtchi has to accurately defend through a mix of passive and active moves. On move 72 there's a concrete line for Nepo to "save" the position but it's very inhuman. Similarly to the time scramble, it feels kind of unfair to blame him. And then you have the long endgame, which flips from an objective draw to a loss after Nepomniachtchi tries to defend with his queen on the wrong side of the pawn. By the computer's objective evaluation, he doesn't go wrong until the queen move in the endgame, but the real answer for where it went wrong is probably on move 25. Once you have that reduction, you have a basically endless position where black has to play nearly perfectly to draw. It's not a losing move by any means, but it certainly seems to be the point that shaped the game into the loss it became.
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Dec 3, 2021 21:57
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