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BrianWilly posted:Yeah idk boys/girls/etc, the episode itself was decent but it made me 1473% more confused about the whole Aes Sedai/Whitecloaks thing than I already was. I had exactly the same issues with them. I think it helps to think of the setting as similar to Italy/HRE before the renaissance and in slow decline. The lack of a central religion to give legitimacy to such an organisation like the Children is something we just have to accept. Setting spoiler? The world as presented is having a slow burn apocalypse. Declining population, unstable polities, general warfare and lawlessness. Vast areas have no central authority.
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Dec 3, 2021 17:29
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the white cloaks do not seem to all be as evil as Valda. i expect we'll learn more about him if he survived.
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Dec 3, 2021 17:33
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there is a very involved political aspect behind the whitecloaks and their interaction with the rest of the nations and the show has yet to get into it. and it will. it's not some failing or whatever that things are shown as they are, it's how things operate on some level and the show at the moment is focusing mainly on a guy who is, by the standards of the whitecloaks, exceptionally creepy and vile because his role is to be an inquisitor in an organization that styles itself as a kind of holy crusade already.
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Dec 3, 2021 17:38
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due to the series, I've begun a reread starting with New Spring, the prequel that takes place ~20 years before the start of the series proper/the show (don't do this on a first read) (very vague spoilers regarding Whitecloaks and Tar Valon but tagged just in case) I just got done reading a scene where a few characters from the White Tower need to leave the city for an errand, and as they are crossing a bridge over the river, they spot Whitecloaks near the village on the other side. They wait on the bridge, consider turning back, until they see the Whitecloaks moving away, and it's implied they only do so because of the contingent of Tower Guards with them.
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Dec 3, 2021 17:39
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It's going to be funny when, yet again, the show immediately answers questions that people are asking from the previous episode, and everyone will go full pikachu face.
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Dec 3, 2021 17:49
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Ghislaine of YOSPOS posted:the white cloaks do not seem to all be as evil as Valda. i expect we'll learn more about him if he survived. Not sure where that’s shown in the show.
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Dec 3, 2021 18:02
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I doubt there's a single Aes Sedai that would give a gently caress about a bunch of Tinkers getting beat up
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Dec 3, 2021 18:03
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MarcusSA posted:Not sure where that’s shown in the show. the literal only other officer we have ever met, who felt bad for moiraine and then said he was taking his men to where the trollocs were sighted because he seemed to actually be interested in killing shadowspawn
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Dec 3, 2021 18:04
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All the episodes have been great so far. I pumped my fist in the air when I saw Loial. He was cool, despite him not being huge. My non-book-reading daughter said she loves his character too. I thought the episode was great, but the Warder grief ceremony was super cheesy with the fist-pounding. Wish they ended the ep on something else.
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Dec 3, 2021 18:05
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eke out posted:the literal only other officer we have ever met, who felt bad for moiraine and then said he was taking his men to where the trollocs were sighted because he seemed to actually be interested in killing shadowspawn He also was clearly not impressed with Valda and was glad to see the backside of him.
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Dec 3, 2021 18:06
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CainsDescendant posted:I think a huge block of text from the book that the next season will presumably be covering may possibly qualify as a little bit of a book spoiler my bad, i just thought it was some interesting background information about how the characters see the state of the world
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Dec 3, 2021 18:16
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People being incredulous at how the Whitecloaks operate despite the multitude of posts showing real world examples of religious military groups harassing city-states and explaining the politics of why they act as they do will never get old. They also do the real world fash thing where they antagonize until their victim lashes out, then play the victims themselves. EDIT: Like, these aren't modern nations we're dealing with. The Aes Sedai control the city of Tar Valon...and that's it. Same goes for most of the big cities and nations. Devorum fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Dec 3, 2021 |
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Dec 3, 2021 18:26
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I thought Valda was a lot better here than when we first saw him. Trying, and failing, to not get attached to Barney Harris Rosamund Pike is a very good actress. I thought her scene with Liandrin was very interesting, it's framed almost as a friendly rivalry. When she says "look elsewhere for recruits" or whatever, her expression and delivery read as non-confrontational, like, better luck next time. The dynamic between all the Aes Sedai are interesting, and not something you see a lot of in the source material. Really excited to see what they do with Siuan Sanche If I were designing the grand tower of Tar Valon, I would simply not put the Ring Melting Fire of Grief on Suicide Balcony.
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Dec 3, 2021 18:29
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zoux posted:If I were designing the grand tower of Tar Valon, I would simply not put the Ring Melting Fire of Grief on Suicide Balcony. Yeah I really thought he was gonna jump straight off there
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Dec 3, 2021 18:31
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eke out posted:the literal only other officer we have ever met, who felt bad for moiraine and then said he was taking his men to where the trollocs were sighted because he seemed to actually be interested in killing shadowspawn #notallwhitecloaks
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Dec 3, 2021 18:33
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zoux posted:If I were designing the grand tower of Tar Valon, I would simply not put the Ring Melting Fire of Grief on Suicide Balcony. That makes me wonder if they use the ring of molten gold there to make new rings, as a nod to the whole rebirth cycle.
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Dec 3, 2021 18:35
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The next big spin-off Wheel of Time series will be The Real Aes Sedai of Tar Valon.
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Dec 3, 2021 18:43
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zoux posted:Rosamund Pike is a very good actress. I thought her scene with Liandrin was very interesting, it's framed almost as a friendly rivalry. When she says "look elsewhere for recruits" or whatever, her expression and delivery read as non-confrontational, like, better luck next time. The dynamic between all the Aes Sedai are interesting, and not something you see a lot of in the source material. I think Liandrin's actress is doing a very good job coming across as someone who is trying to manipulate people in a friendly way while being an unfriendly person. It's a good level of awkward to all of her "helpful" interactions with Nynaeve and Moiraine.
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Dec 3, 2021 18:45
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MarcusSA posted:Not sure where that’s shown in the show. Valda struck me as playing a little fast and loose with his beliefs when threatening Egwene. His bit that was like "how do you know I won't just violate my oaths to do with you what I want?" felt more menacing and genuine, like his alignment to the Whitecloaks and the Light is just a convenient vehicle for his sadistic impulses. A switch he can turn on and off. This was all just an impression I got from his dialogue and demeanor, and may not at all be true in the end. At this point, though, I agree that he seems to be more Evil Evil Bad than the rest of his order. He'd probably have outright murdered the Tinkers if he could.
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Dec 3, 2021 18:46
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Pleads posted:I think Liandrin's actress is doing a very good job coming across as someone who is trying to manipulate people in a friendly way while being an unfriendly person. It's a good level of awkward to all of her "helpful" interactions with Nynaeve and Moiraine. It's like the person who does watercooler conversation constantly at work just because they are trying to figure out who will get promoted next.
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Dec 3, 2021 18:46
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Pleads posted:I think Liandrin's actress is doing a very good job coming across as someone who is trying to manipulate people in a friendly way while being an unfriendly person. It's a good level of awkward to all of her "helpful" interactions with Nynaeve and Moiraine. According to my non-book-reading mom “That lady is super creepy.”
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Dec 3, 2021 18:54
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Something I haven’t seen mentioned yet about this episode is Loial calling Rand an Aiel. I mean, yeah, we’ve seen exactly one other ginger so far and they were hanging in a gibbet. But I don’t think we’ve seen or heard enough about the Aiel for Loial’s claim to have emotional heft, whether it’s right or wrong. It didn’t feel like some sort of  moment, and given how quickly the episode moved on I am wondering if it was intended to be.
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Dec 3, 2021 18:57
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Perrin's superpower is just having a pack of loyal wolf bros follow him around.
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Dec 3, 2021 19:00
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Not gonna lie, I struck my chest. That was some powerful TV
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Dec 3, 2021 19:01
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What are the beliefs of the Children? For all we know it could be the "How to get what you want through the cunning use of sophistry." Comparisons to Christian Europe are difficult as there is no central faith or a common church. At least Christianity had Rome and the Bible even if was gated behind latin, the flock had an idea what it was about. "The Light" means whatever the person with the sword tells you means. "Darkfriend" appears to be synonymous with "person I don't like."
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Dec 3, 2021 19:05
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Beefeater1980 posted:Mostly agree, but the actor’s voice and demeanour are still really good. Detached scholar who’s also a big strong friend who will help you. The intonation, cadence and slightly alien delivery reminds me of Christopher Judge as Teal’c. YES! This exactly. I'm watching SG1 right now and you placed what I was thinking!
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Dec 3, 2021 19:06
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Pleads posted:I think Liandrin's actress is doing a very good job coming across as someone who is trying to manipulate people in a friendly way while being an unfriendly person. Ha, that's a very good way of putting it
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Dec 3, 2021 19:06
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I thought the episode was alright. Hope that the 3-hour director's cut comes out soon because I found, amongst other things, Loial's whole "Oh look, I just happened to have found your friend from the Two Rivers inside the tower grounds" really abrupt and jarring."
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Dec 3, 2021 19:10
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Devorum posted:People being incredulous at how the Whitecloaks operate despite the multitude of posts showing real world examples of religious military groups harassing city-states and explaining the politics of why they act as they do will never get old. Think about how in America armed white supremacists can go in the streets and terrify people with guns with no consequences unless they actually kill someone. And even then a lot of time there are no consequences.
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Dec 3, 2021 19:16
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I don't know if this was COVID or budget or what but it's a little weird that we get to the tower where all the Aes Sedai and warders live and don't meet any new Aes Sedai or warders. Place seemed pretty empty. Looks like we'll probably get more next week, though.
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Dec 3, 2021 19:24
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navyjack posted:According to my non-book-reading mom “That lady is super creepy.” Nynaeve's initial impression "That woman is a snake.." feels really spot on.
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Dec 3, 2021 19:30
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As someone who strongly disliked the books, this show's characters have ingratiated themselves with me more in <5 hours than in 800 hours of audiobook. Episode 5 was mostly just pairs of characters having quiet conversations, but they're no longer just different shades of LOTR characters who give '90s-style stand-up routines about how "MEN DO IT LIKE THIS AND WOMEN DO IT LIKE THIS" so I was cool with it.
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Dec 3, 2021 19:31
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Non book reader. I have watched the first 4 episodes more or less in a row (the day ep4 released), and this one today. I think we are starting to see a fundamental issue with the show, AKA: it should have been more episodes. The pacing has felt a bit off since the beginning, and today's episode has been the worst for it for the reasons already discussed. But since today's episode was mostly people talking, I think it also underlined another issue: there is a ton of "tell don't show" dialogue in the show - characters keep saying stuff that should be common knowledge for all the parties involved in the conversation for the sake of the viewers. IE: Moiraine is a blue AS (which as I take it, means she's supposed to be a master spy) and yet they decided to have the most basic politics of the tower explained in a dialogue between her and the green AS: I take it a spy should be aware that there may be some intrigue against her from the leader of her order, or from the other character that have so far been shown in a non-stop anthitetical position to her? Same for the talk between the aforementioned red AS and Moiraine - with exposition that repeats to the public stuff that we already know from context clues from previous episodes...oh really, the man-hunting witch whose dialogue has mostly been "men can't be trusted" doesn't like men? Given that this is supposed to be the first taste of the "politics" part of the setting it doesn't really bode well imo. You either need a longer runtime, or you need to trust your audience to pick up elements of the setting from the setting itself - you can't have unnatural expository dialogue and a breakneck pace. Compare this to S1 of the Expanse: a super dense, super complex setting where most of the world is experienced through the characters living in the world. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Dec 3, 2021 |
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Dec 3, 2021 19:36
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Omnomnomnivore posted:I don't know if this was COVID or budget or what but it's a little weird that we get to the tower where all the Aes Sedai and warders live and don't meet any new Aes Sedai or warders. Place seemed pretty empty. Looks like we'll probably get more next week, though. It is most likely as you said a result of COVID/budget but there's also a story reason for this that they might go into in the future so I won't say more than that. It's very minor so I'm not spoiling anything by just mentioning it.
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Dec 3, 2021 19:40
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That Italian Guy posted:IE: Moiraine is a blue AS (which as I take it, means she's supposed to be a master spy) and yet they decided to have the most basic politics of the tower explained in a dialogue between her and the green AS: I take it a spy should be aware that there may be some intrigue against her from the leader of her order, or from the other character that have so far been shown in a non-stop anthitetical position to her? Spying isn't really an accurate description of the Blues, that's just Liandrin's interpretation. As per the bonus feature this week the Blues fight for just causes. And Moiraine's whole thing is being disconnected from Tower politics cause she's off chasing the Dragon Reborn (see her talking about home being her saddle and cloak)
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Dec 3, 2021 19:42
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the blue ajah pretty much picks varying kinds of activism to champion and they dedicate their efforts towards those things they view as overtly beneficial to the people at large. they're one of the more likely ajahs to be traveling around as a result of that. that only one of the ajahs is angled towards 'hey maybe we should help everyone out' explicitly should maybe give you a general vibe of how the aes sedai operate
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Dec 3, 2021 19:47
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Devorum posted:People being incredulous at how the Whitecloaks operate despite the multitude of posts showing real world examples of religious military groups harassing city-states and explaining the politics of why they act as they do will never get old. Not to mention January 6th attacks happened and they didn’t prosecute everyone involved and or use justified lethal force to stop terrorists on the steps like they should have to protect the VIPs. Charlie Kirk alone for bussing in the terrorists should be in prison. The shows whitecloaks totally work. Shows great.
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Dec 3, 2021 19:56
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Ok that makes sense, but the problem with the dialogue persists. We have been introuced to Moraine as a Gandalf-esque character, given the parallels with LOTR; and Liandrin has implied she had a secret agenda multiple times. Now, we know that Gandalf himself, for all the secrets he held, was not immune to scheming from the leader of his order; and we know that Liandrin is a snake...but we had a multiple minute conversation that introduced us to the ABC of tower politics between two characters that have been part of said politics (even just on the receiving end) for a very long time. If you apply the same type of dialogue to something more mundane, it would feel like empty air. This is made worse by the fact that the runtime for the show is clearly not enough to begin with. So maybe it would be better to see said politics in action and maybe have your audience confused for a minute instead of having to gently introduce every new concept with dialogue that would fit in a 12+ ep season...or heck, if you want to keep it in, at least have it directed at someone who's in universe unaware of the concepts, same as the audience. EDIT: in fact, the show has a nice "show don't tell" moment almost immediately afterwards - with the conversation between Nynaeve and Liadrin. Why do we need someone to tell Moiraine to be careful of Liadrin's machinations (something she is obviously already aware) minutes before seeing these machinations taking place (something that makes us aware of them)? That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Dec 3, 2021 |
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Dec 3, 2021 19:59
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Scissorfighter posted:As someone who strongly disliked the books, this show's characters have ingratiated themselves with me more in <5 hours than in 800 hours of audiobook. Episode 5 was mostly just pairs of characters having quiet conversations, but they're no longer just different shades of LOTR characters who give '90s-style stand-up routines about how "MEN DO IT LIKE THIS AND WOMEN DO IT LIKE THIS" so I was cool with it. I thought the last two episodes have been really great at fleshing out the unique world and also allowing some more characterization such as the scenes with Lan trying to help a depressed Stepin. More importantly, getting away from the intro setup which felt way too similar to anyone who's watched the Lord of the Rings films or read the books. I'm also wondering where they did the shooting for Tar Valon interior, I'm assuming they just did some inside shoot using the castle from Episode 3 since the architecture looked Moorish. The actor for Valda was also more interesting in this episode such as how in a twisted way he really gets enjoyment from catching people in lies, doing investigative processes or trying to figure out how to break them. etalian fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Dec 3, 2021 |
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Dec 3, 2021 20:08
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I can really feel Amazon notes to the effect of "don't trust the audience, they're a bunch of loving morons. Explain everything explicitly at least once, natural dialogue be damned"
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Dec 3, 2021 20:09
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