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flatluigi posted:the dev team that's working on pioneer is also the dev team in charge of implementing every other set in the game, as it turns out. amonkhet/kaladesh remastered & jumpstart historic horizons are some of the results you've been seeing from their work on pioneer yes i know its the same team... my point was there resources were tied into alchemy for the whole year instead of working their way through the sets in pioneer. jumpstart historic horizons are new cards in arena but most of them won't count towards pioneer since most of that set was from MH1 and MH2. assuming their output from last year when amonkhet/kaladesh remastered sets were made, and assuming they can do 2 releases of a combined 2 sets every year.. they have to do return to ravnica to eldritch moon which is about 16 sets, which is about 4 years at their old pace. --- i mean instead of working on this in secret for over a year maybe use one of those surveys you keep sending to gauge interest in yet another format. i guess i don't really care about new digital cards (well i do because they seem kinda poo poo and also seem to exist to show that digital only keywords they created are bad) but this whole modifying a released paper card for their digital format irks me a lot. none of the changes seem to actually improve the lives of its player base. i'm sure the uproar over it will die down but it's more likely because WOTC sank a bunch of money into this and now they're probably going to dig in on this. and call me paranoid but the way they keep assuring that standard is not going anywhere just leads me to believe they're going to kill it off. over a year of work to implement something that seems like you could do with a ban of the standard card and then generate a new digital nerf/buffed version of the card. but because that apparently costs them money (via users getting wildcards for banned cards) they spent a year doing this instead.
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Dec 3, 2021 19:23
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Kashuno posted:Alchemy draft when It's 100% coming if Alchemy becomes more played than Standard.
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Dec 3, 2021 19:33
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Fish Of Doom posted:Apparently boxes of Innistrad Double Feature are going to be $200-250 and only have 24 packs in a box. Why would anyone buy this? Getting one black and white card per pack is not worth $8-9. Wait. I thought all the cards were black and white, and one per pack would be the special foil. You're saying 14 of the cards in the pack are just normal MID/VOW reprints? 
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Dec 3, 2021 20:03
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It really does feel like every Innistrad set after the first one has been riding on its coattails despite being kinda crappy overall and they're really banking on flavor to sell packs.
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Dec 3, 2021 20:07
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:Wait. I thought all the cards were black and white, and one per pack would be the special foil. You're saying 14 of the cards in the pack are just normal MID/VOW reprints? the last i heard is all cards are black and white, but only a select few had any effort put into it. most of the cards were just put through a greyscale filter.
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Dec 3, 2021 20:15
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Strong Sauce posted:the last i heard is all cards are black and white, but only a select few had any effort put into it. most of the cards were just put through a greyscale filter. they didn't do any new art for the set but they did at least care about the grey balance, imo. if they'd just went right-click-apply-all to the set it'd be much worse than it is, and you can tell that they adjusted the contrast depending on the card you can only do so much with art that (presumably) wasn't intended to be seen in black and white in the first place, though
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Dec 3, 2021 20:18
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Strong Sauce posted:and call me paranoid but the way they keep assuring that standard is not going anywhere just leads me to believe they're going to kill it off. They're going to kill standard on arena. They'll keep it in paper, since a rotating format means they make more money. Given modern's popularity I think they're going to support competitive play more than they planned to when they killed the MPL, and figure they might as well have standard in paper again. But yeah, it's gone from Arena by the end of 2022, no question. Pioneer also isn't coming to Arena, at least not the paper version. If we get anything then we're getting an "alchemy" Pioneer.
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Dec 3, 2021 21:25
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flatluigi posted:they didn't do any new art for the set but they did at least care about the grey balance, imo. if they'd just went right-click-apply-all to the set it'd be much worse than it is, and you can tell that they adjusted the contrast depending on the card
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Dec 3, 2021 21:32
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Panderfringe posted:They're going to kill standard on arena. They'll keep it in paper, since a rotating format means they make more money. Given modern's popularity I think they're going to support competitive play more than they planned to when they killed the MPL, and figure they might as well have standard in paper again. But yeah, it's gone from Arena by the end of 2022, no question. Pioneer also isn't coming to Arena, at least not the paper version. If we get anything then we're getting an "alchemy" Pioneer. They aren't going to remove Standard from arena next year, what even is this take?
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Dec 3, 2021 21:38
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personally i believe that when they say that they're going to keep standard, draft, and sealed on arena and exactly the same as the paper versions + that they're continuing to work on pioneer they're actually doing so i don't really understand the impulse to pretend that a thing you don't like is worse, especially when it would be so much easier for them to just say they're doing the worse thing in the first place? why make an entirely new format on arena instead of just adding the rebalanced cards to standard on arena if the goal was to replace standard on arena. why continue to insist that you're working towards implementing pioneer on arena when half the playerbase believes you cancelled it months ago. it's just so much easier to get mad at the things you know are happening instead of coming up with worse future things to get upset by
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Dec 3, 2021 21:38
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HootTheOwl posted:Can you imagine? If this was paper you'd have to print it with wither! It would work just fine in paper. Also you shouldn't find a spot for it as it is bad.
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Dec 3, 2021 21:42
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Panderfringe posted:They're going to kill standard on arena. They'll keep it in paper, since a rotating format means they make more money. Given modern's popularity I think they're going to support competitive play more than they planned to when they killed the MPL, and figure they might as well have standard in paper again. But yeah, it's gone from Arena by the end of 2022, no question. Pioneer also isn't coming to Arena, at least not the paper version. If we get anything then we're getting an "alchemy" Pioneer. paper standard is already dead there is nothing to kill nor anything to keep alive it's not going anywhere on arena either, a constructed format gathering from a small number of recent sets is important for new player acquisition
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Dec 3, 2021 21:58
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Alchemy is fine Alchemy ruining Historic isn't, and there should be a separate Historic Alchemy queue
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Dec 3, 2021 22:01
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I would be happy if they said "We want to stay flexible but also, these changes can be weird and mix things up. We realize that. So here's the plan: If we Alchemize a card for Standard reasons, it will also change in Historic. Historic is a live format and we don't want our two live formats to differ. But we understand Historic is at a higher power level than Standard. Our promise is, if a card gets changed for Standard Alchemy it will revert to its printed version when it rotates. We can't promise it won't get balanced again, but we'll give every card its due before making that decision, and if we do change it again, it'll be with Historic's metagame in mind, not Standard's" THERE I FIXED IT.
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Dec 3, 2021 22:13
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:It would work just fine in paper. It's very good actually at getting through the big butted creatures my opponent keeps blocking with.
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Dec 3, 2021 22:13
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flatluigi posted:personally i believe that when they say that they're going to keep standard, draft, and sealed on arena and exactly the same as the paper versions + that they're continuing to work on pioneer they're actually doing so
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Dec 3, 2021 22:14
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odiv posted:Doesn't standard on Arena already have some differences vs. in paper, though? Weren't there some cards that were only legal on Arena or do I have that confused with something else? You are thinking of the arena base set but 1. they're terrible cards and 2. Only legal in bo1. It does nothing to separate paper standard from arena standard.
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Dec 3, 2021 22:21
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flatluigi posted:it's just so much easier to get mad at the things you know are happening instead of coming up with worse future things to get upset by Secret Lairs are limited-time releases intended to attack FOMO, or the Fear of Missing Out. 2019 had 7 Secret Lair drops. 2020 had 26, one of which has tournament legal unique cards. and 2021 has had over 40 with a month to go. This poo poo isn't in a vacuum. Alchemy isn't something completely separate from everything else. It's part of a deliberate effort to extract more money without delivering more value. In Alchemy's case, the ability to nerf problem cards means not having to ban them, which means not issuing wildcards as a replacement, so when they invariably mess up again and print Legacy staples or fail to playtest cards adequately, the players who get them to stay on top have to spend more wildcards when the cards are changed and the metagame shifts, which means spending more money.
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Dec 3, 2021 22:36
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Panderfringe posted:They're going to kill standard on arena. They'll keep it in paper, since a rotating format means they make more money. Given modern's popularity I think they're going to support competitive play more than they planned to when they killed the MPL, and figure they might as well have standard in paper again. But yeah, it's gone from Arena by the end of 2022, no question. Pioneer also isn't coming to Arena, at least not the paper version. If we get anything then we're getting an "alchemy" Pioneer. Nah, then they'd have to give refunds if they changed cards. They might try to sideline it on Arena, but the button will always be there.
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Dec 3, 2021 22:46
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Secret Lairs are limited-time releases intended to attack FOMO, or the Fear of Missing Out. 2019 had 7 Secret Lair drops. 2020 had 26, one of which has tournament legal unique cards. and 2021 has had over 40 with a month to go. yeah, i get the justification of 'wotc clearly is a company that wants to make money so they're making decisions that reflect that;' i just disagree with the conclusion that literally anything they might do is possible and probable because of that
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Dec 3, 2021 22:47
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paper standard is dead. at least atm.. and i'm guessing the plan is to just let arena standard die out as well. i dont think they'll remove it until they figure out how to release paper cards with the updates. kinda like baseball cards with their late season set updates... maybe.. but i think letting standard to rot is not good at all for paper magic in general. maybe the other thing happens where they eventually just abandon paper magic because its not as profitable as people spending a bunch of money in arena. and once that happens.. where paper is less of a priority.. you're just going to get set releases with less playtesting that they'll just fix in post. basically the signal to me seems like they are caring less and less about paper magic.. and i'd prefer they care about it. because i always assumed that was kinda the point.. that you could play either in paper or on arena and the game would be relatively the same.
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Dec 3, 2021 22:51
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I don't think they're flat out lying when they say they want to work on Pioneer, but I think the way other things have clearly moved ahead of it in the queue multiple times and they've talked about it being a multi-year process even if they'd prioritized it a year ago makes it easy to imagine it becoming vaporware. Of course the outrage over historic changes could instead force them to put out proto-Pioneer in the near future, which would more firmly commit them, but right now there's not much tying them in a concrete way to vague future plans they don't even have a roadmap for. Especially if Pioneer continues to look pretty dead in paper.
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Dec 3, 2021 22:55
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Strong Sauce posted:paper standard is dead. at least atm.. and i'm guessing the plan is to just let arena standard die out as well. i dont think they'll remove it until they figure out how to release paper cards with the updates. kinda like baseball cards with their late season set updates... maybe.. but i think letting standard to rot is not good at all for paper magic in general. maybe the other thing happens where they eventually just abandon paper magic because its not as profitable as people spending a bunch of money in arena. see, this is the other thing: even if paper magic wasn't as profitable (which isn't the case, they still make a loving lot off of paper magic even before you start counting secret lairs) why would they decide to get zero money off of paper magic instead of however much money they already make. if wotc cares so much about money that they'll put that before everything else, there's no chance they'd kill paper magic
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Dec 3, 2021 22:55
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flatluigi posted:'wotc clearly is a company that wants to make money so they're making decisions that reflect that;' Not quite. It's that wotc is devaluing their own product for short term gains in the unsustainable pursuit of ever increasing profits that is contaminating every facet of society and destroying the planet and I would much rather prefer this fun card game not be obliterated by the same capitalist forces that I try to briefly distract myself from by playing it. Or that they'd be more subtle about it.
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Dec 3, 2021 23:01
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yeah i read LF too i'm just simplifying for the rest of the thread
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Dec 3, 2021 23:02
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Huxley posted:I would be happy if they said I would be fine with this. Why de-power Historic just because something is strong in Standard? Especially when Historic already has a bunch of strong stuff going on, stuff that rarely involves the heavy hitters of Standard.
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Dec 3, 2021 23:18
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I think bringing the Alchemy patches to Historic is so they can make Brainstorm cost 1U next time.
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Dec 3, 2021 23:24
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guy trying to convince me to go play legacy on sunday when what i really want is to sit at home and watch f1 on my couch
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Dec 3, 2021 23:34
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:Wait. I thought all the cards were black and white, and one per pack would be the special foil. You're saying 14 of the cards in the pack are just normal MID/VOW reprints? Strong Sauce posted:the last i heard is all cards are black and white, but only a select few had any effort put into it. most of the cards were just put through a greyscale filter. Nope, at least according to their own website, there is only one "foil silver screen" card per pack. https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/innistrad-double-feature-product-overview-2021-11-15
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Dec 3, 2021 23:35
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flatluigi posted:see, this is the other thing: even if paper magic wasn't as profitable (which isn't the case, they still make a loving lot off of paper magic even before you start counting secret lairs) why would they decide to get zero money off of paper magic instead of however much money they already make. if wotc cares so much about money that they'll put that before everything else, there's no chance they'd kill paper magic but there are costs to producing sets. R&D, playtesting, marketing, and then allocating printers to print it, then distributing it all worldwide in different languages.. yes eventually they recoup the costs... but they can spend a whole bunch of R&D, playtesting, and marketing and printing out standard sets. or they can put that into modern sets and SLDs and playtest any new cards into "alchemy" and make way way way more money. we'll see. maybe i'm just being an idiot and this has no effect on paper magic. i don't think we'll know either way until they reveal what their plans are for 2023. Fish Of Doom posted:Nope, at least according to their own website, there is only one "foil silver screen" card per pack. the entire set is in black and white. a "silver screen foil" card is: "It's a card with black-and-white artwork printed as a traditional foil using a special silver substrate" but all the cards will be black and white.
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Dec 3, 2021 23:49
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I like the idea of rebalancing, but I hate the digital-only cards.
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Dec 4, 2021 00:06
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It's called eratta.
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Dec 4, 2021 00:08
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I thought the rest of the cards are just regular black and white? It’s just that the one gets an extra treatment on top of that
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Dec 4, 2021 00:27
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HootTheOwl posted:It's called eratta.  ?
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Dec 4, 2021 00:40
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HootTheOwl posted:It's called eratta. We are deathly afraid of eratta in paper! Instead, lets do the necessary eratta online only so we can further complicate our design and balancing of the game as a whole. Eratta in paper affects all of one type of crowd, competitive players. Instead they have either banned things or left a format in shambles. Can't do anything reasonable in between.
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Dec 4, 2021 00:45
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Hey Altair, wasserrata you
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Dec 4, 2021 01:01
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:This poo poo isn't in a vacuum. Alchemy isn't something completely separate from everything else. It's part of a deliberate effort to extract more money without delivering more value. Eh, I think they are trying to deliver more value. They are seeing people unhappy with Standard both when it's static and when it has bans, and this is an attempt to thread that needle and also make it more like Historic which people like with more frequent shakeups and digital only stuff. I'm not particularly convinced that's what people like about Historic, and even if it was it's possible to have too much of a good thing, but I can see what they are trying to do. Mo money is definitely a motivation for this, but I still think they believe they are improving the game along with it.
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Dec 4, 2021 01:16
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Sickening posted:We are deathly afraid of eratta in paper! Instead, lets do the necessary eratta online only so we can further complicate our design and balancing of the game as a whole. My point was more that they have to bend over backwards fifty different ways because they just can't call it "errata". Because WOTC doesn't do errata...except when it does.
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Dec 4, 2021 01:23
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Sinteres posted:It's 100% coming if Alchemy becomes more played than Standard. I'm not so sure. Forcing you to buy alchemy boosters is a great way to force people that draft to build their collection to spend more money, and everything about alchemy as a format and concept seems to be designed to extract more money from people, including people who otherwise might not spend much like drafters and historic players.
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Dec 4, 2021 01:29
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troofs posted:I'm not so sure. Forcing you to buy alchemy boosters is a great way to force people that draft to build their collection to spend more money, and everything about alchemy as a format and concept seems to be designed to extract more money from people, including people who otherwise might not spend much like drafters and historic players. I don't think they'll add the cards from Alchemy packs to drafts, I think they'll errata cards in drafts at some point down the line.
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Dec 4, 2021 02:17
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