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Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005




The Lone Badger posted:

Do professional contract killers actually exist?

Yup. They're usually younger than you'd expect and burn out/get caught/killed by 25 though.

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Asehujiko
Apr 6, 2011

The Lone Badger posted:

Do professional contract killers actually exist?
The ones that you hire using bitcoins on the darkweb: no.

The ones that are kept on retainer by a drugs cartel: yes.

Lampsacus
Oct 21, 2008

Also, depends on whether you believe 'epstein didn't kill himself' is just 'we have questions' or 'leaving reality'.

Acute Grill
Dec 9, 2011

Chomp

The Lone Badger posted:

Do professional contract killers actually exist?

Not really in the "lone gunmen for hire" sort of way that movies and the dark web would want you to believe but yeah you have guys like Glennon Engleman who killed a bunch of dudes to split the life insurance with their wives. Hell, there were even a few ads in Soldier of Fortune that weren't just Feds or scams.

Depending on how much you want to stretch the definition of the word, Mercenary work like the assassination of Moïse or Duterte's motorcycle vigilantes is arguably contract killing as a team sport.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

You guys never heard of the military??

Busket Posket
Feb 5, 2010

✨ⓡⓐⓨⓜⓞⓝⓓ✨
I think this was the first disrupt_tv video I saw and I was hooked. Dude is really good at presenting things in an intriguing and digestible format.

The second segment, “CORRUPT_SCREEN” follows how a multinational scheme distributing controlled substances via sketchy sites and pharmacies was uncovered by detectives trying to solve the murder of a real estate agent. It involves ex-military mercenaries working as hitmen, and one of the weak links in their chain of subterfuge was that middle-aged white guys who miss their military glory days — in the way Al Bundy misses his high school football career — tend to use the same lovely usernames/pseudonyms in multiple places.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5Wxh-rCzrY

HelloIAmYourHeart
Dec 29, 2008
Fallen Rib

Punkin Spunkin posted:

Epidemic psychogenic illnesses are pretty fascinating, though I wonder why so many of the cases cited on wikipedia seem to purely involve schoolgirls
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_hysteria_cases

Having once been a teenage girl who attended an all-girls school, it makes perfect sense to me.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo
Didn't Soldier of Fortune (or rather someone advertising with them) actually hire a bunch of racist and/or PTSD-addled Vietnam vets to go fight in Rhodesia?

Also, isn't like every dark web hitman an FBI honeypot?

BrianRx posted:

I never considered the "third parties" before. The ones unrelated to the initial collision but close enough to become involved. Everything is cool, then a car comes flying at you at windshield height. Fun thing to think about next time I'm on the freeway.

People always say plane crashes are scarier because you don't have control of the plane, but honestly that's true of loads of car crashes too. You can't control when Joe Bob's drunk or amazon is making a trucker take two eight-hour breaks back to back and then work 22.

Edgar Allen Ho has a new favorite as of 15:24 on Dec 6, 2021

Wasabi the J
Jan 23, 2008

MOM WAS RIGHT
Lake City Quiet Pills

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF0dCNxfYHk

Lake City produces ammunition, not pharmaceuticals

AlbieQuirky
Oct 9, 2012

Just me and my 🌊dragon🐉 hanging out

Punkin Spunkin posted:

Passing healthcare benefits for state department psycho ennui (or "i was hungover and heard some crickets") is the real unnerving part imho
Epidemic psychogenic illnesses are pretty fascinating, though I wonder why so many of the cases cited on wikipedia seem to purely involve schoolgirls
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_hysteria_cases

Psychogenic illnesses are real illnesses that require treatment. They just don’t have an organic cause.

Punkin Spunkin
Jan 1, 2010
I understand that, I just think Havana Syndrome is mostly bullshit and they should just deal with whatever hosed up psychological malaise/agony their evil jobs are inducing without us paying the bill. :shrug:

Olewithmilk
Jun 30, 2006

What?

Havana syndrome is caused by microwave based microphones cooking peoples brains as spies blast em into embassies. I have no evidence to base this on.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo

Punkin Spunkin posted:

I understand that, I just think Havana Syndrome is mostly bullshit and they should just deal with whatever hosed up psychological malaise/agony their evil jobs are inducing without us paying the bill. :shrug:

Hmm yeah lets make sure the VA doesn't pay for psych treatment on PTSD vets either. This is very leftist and wee need that money for an additional one Abrams the army doesn't want anyway.

Punkin Spunkin
Jan 1, 2010
Oh no, think of DA TRUPS. Gotta get that key support to our spooks, after all, we already waste plenty of money.
tell me more about what is "leftist" :laugh:

Punkin Spunkin
Jan 1, 2010
I do like the idea that leftism is spending money to give state department ghouls more support while the average american slowly dies in a thousand different ways without healthcare coverage, because apparently not supporting that is the same as thinking poor widdle innocent American veterans shouldn't get help at the VA. Hey, we already spend money on ridiculous things, and some loving CIA creep is also part of our Honored Warrior Class.
American leftism :rimshot:

Here's some actually unnerving content
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/1828

HelloIAmYourHeart
Dec 29, 2008
Fallen Rib

Punkin Spunkin posted:

Oh no, think of DA TRUPS. Gotta get that key support to our spooks, after all, we already waste plenty of money.
tell me more about what is "leftist" :laugh:

Don't do this here.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 18, 2013



If Havana Syndrome is to be taken serious it has so many and such inconsistent symptoms to require not a single disorder but an entire family of disorders that have all somehow only impacted US state department people in a single location. Which would it point people just attributing every problem they see to an imaginary disorder even though the symptoms are actually from other completely unrelated things like growing old or having a high stress job.

Terrible Opinions has a new favorite as of 18:03 on Dec 7, 2021

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014


Edgar Allen Ho posted:

People always say plane crashes are scarier because you don't have control of the plane, but honestly that's true of loads of car crashes too. You can't control when Joe Bob's drunk or amazon is making a trucker take two eight-hour breaks back to back and then work 22.

That's true but theoretically you could avoid a collision. In a plane you're just dead.

But I hate hate hate driving and mostly for the reason you give.

BattleMaster
Aug 14, 2000

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

Didn't Soldier of Fortune (or rather someone advertising with them) actually hire a bunch of racist and/or PTSD-addled Vietnam vets to go fight in Rhodesia?

Yes, the actual Rhodesian Army put ads in Soldier of Fortune looking for anyone they could get their hands on

RC and Moon Pie
May 5, 2011

You might remember Stephen Glass, known for a series of lies and entirely made up articles for The New Republic 20 years ago - the movie Shattered Glass is about him. He's dedicated his life since to being truthful but society won't entirely let him move on. Then, he found himself in a situation where he had to lie again, this time for his wife when she developed early onset Alzheimer's.

This is a very depressing article and will suck the soul out of you. It is also a good article, so the risk is yours to take.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo

Groovelord Neato posted:

That's true but theoretically you could avoid a collision. In a plane you're just dead.

But I hate hate hate driving and mostly for the reason you give.

"Theoretically" is doing a lot of work there but I figure you know that.

On the bright side, plane crashes are remarkably survivable these days, especially if you're from where 95% of SA posters are from, rich anglosphere or euro countries. The industry being feared also leads to catastrophic failures being learned from, as a rule. The last mass casualty plane crash by a US carrier was 12 years ago, and in the intervening time, the complete list is:

-last year a guy who snuck onto the runway got hit by a landing Southwest plane (obvious misadventure)
-Kobe Bryant helo crash (pilot error enabled by rich hubris in bad flight conditions)
-2019 a cheapo alaskan liner plane overshot the runway and one passenger was killed by a propeller entering the fuselage (flight control error here)
-2019 two cheapo sightseeing craft in Alaska collided (the worst one since, but more survived than killed- error caused by visual flying conditions, and one pilot of the two managed to land his plane after the collision and with a wound)
-2019 a cargo craft crashed in Texas, the 3 crew were killed (pilot error)
-2018 one employee steals a small aircraft and suicide crashes it in Washington (obvious)
-2018 a window breaks on a Southwest flight after engine failure debris, one passenger is partially sucked out and dies (our first actual mechanical failure in this list)
-2013 a cargo aircraft crashes in Alabama (pilot error)
-2013 another lovely alaskan flight flying the same lovely canadian De Havillands stalls and crashes during takeoff (no known cause)
-2013 a passenger flight lands short of the runway, three die out of 106 (pilot error)
-2013 a cargo flight crashes into a mountain, both crew killed (pilot error)

So no more than ten deaths on a single flight in twelve years, almost none on main carrier passenger airlines, and a grand total of 39 deaths in the twelve years since the awful Buffalo crash that killed 49. 27 of those 39 since being in Alaska and flying canadian De Havilland prop planes. Meanwhile an almost x1000 number died on US roads, 38.5k, in 2020 alone. The only US planes to fear are alaskan bush flights, apparently. If you discount the alaskan flights and cargo flight crew, and the Kobe flight, that's 4 dead since Buffalo 2009.

I've started working on aircraft maintenance at a regional airport so this stuff is really interesting to me now, especially because hypothetically if I screw up I could kill someone and I don't want that on my conscience.

Also, my most terrifying crash is Aeroflot 593. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrttTR8e8-4 (video with CVR)

Ostensibly competent crew in a perfectly functional plane crash the flight with all lost. How? Relief pilot brings his kids into the cockpit while the captain is taking his break. The kid daughter gets to "fly" the plane by impotently touching the controls while her dad subtly adjusts the autopilot. Then the teenaged son gets a turn and is strong enough to gently caress with the controls enough to disable the aileron controls of the autopilot. Nobody in the cockpit knows how to fly an Airbus because they were trained on soviet craft, not french. The teenager first notices poo poo is happening. G-forces intensify and the adults can barely control the plane, and the Airbus can't fly and turn with the steep banking going on as it shifts from 45 degrees to a full 90, meaning passengers on one side were looking directly at the ground. The autopilot tries to correct without ailerons, meaning it stalls the plane and disengages completely. G-forces reduce enough for the pilot to replace the teen, but the first officer overcorrects the rapid descent and stalls again after puling the nose to almost vertical. The pilots regain control again but fail to realize how far the plane has plummeted. It's irrecoverable and the plane crashes with everyone killed. This whole time, unlike with a lot of accidents, the passengers and flight attendants were fully able to perceive the terrible banking, spinning, and g-forces and the cabin was "prepared" for a crash. It's mercifully barely 3 minutes from the teen taking control of the aircraft to the end.

Edgar Allen Ho has a new favorite as of 21:54 on Dec 7, 2021

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014


Oh yeah like I posted before I got obsessed with this stuff so I know it's super rare. I've never been afraid of flying but if I could I'd move to a city with good public transportation in a heartbeat and never touch a steering wheel again.

Aeroflot 593 is probably the dumbest crash though Air France 447 is close.

Arsenic Lupin
Apr 12, 2012

This particularly rapid💨 unintelligible 😖patter💁 isn't generally heard🧏‍♂️, and if it is🤔, it doesn't matter💁.


I think Ask A Pilot said that as of some date last month, it had been 20 years since the last mass-casualty airline accident on US soil. What happened 12 years ago?

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014


Arsenic Lupin posted:

I think Ask A Pilot said that as of some date last month, it had been 20 years since the last mass-casualty airline accident on US soil. What happened 12 years ago?

Colgan Air Flight 3407 was 2009.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407

hellotoothpaste
Dec 21, 2006

I dare you to call it a perm again..

RC and Moon Pie posted:

You might remember Stephen Glass, known for a series of lies and entirely made up articles for The New Republic 20 years ago - the movie Shattered Glass is about him. He's dedicated his life since to being truthful but society won't entirely let him move on. Then, he found himself in a situation where he had to lie again, this time for his wife when she developed early onset Alzheimer's.

This is a very depressing article and will suck the soul out of you. It is also a good article, so the risk is yours to take.

Great article overall, however depressing it may be

Varkk
Apr 17, 2004


I think mass casualty was defined as 50 or more on a the plane.

DRINK ME
Jul 31, 2006
i cant fix avs like this because idk the bbcode - HTML IS BS MAN

RC and Moon Pie posted:

You might remember Stephen Glass, known for a series of lies and entirely made up articles for The New Republic 20 years ago - the movie Shattered Glass is about him. He's dedicated his life since to being truthful but society won't entirely let him move on. Then, he found himself in a situation where he had to lie again, this time for his wife when she developed early onset Alzheimer's.

This is a very depressing article and will suck the soul out of you. It is also a good article, so the risk is yours to take.

This was so sad it broke me for a bit; damp eyes and just had to stop everything for a few minutes. It’s such a horrible disease and scares the gently caress out of me thinking about my brain going that way, especially the early onset in the article.

I only learned who Stephen Glass was earlier this year when I watched the Shattered Glass movie as just a random pick on some streaming service. I was kind of fascinated by him and after checking Wikipedia I went on to read the original article, and a follow up article by one of his New Republic colleagues. Neither of those articles really fit this threads thesis but the original is a brilliant long form piece.

Neither of those really fit this threads thesis but the first is a brilliant long form read regardless.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014


It is unnerving how he got away with such ridiculously fake stories.

Varkk posted:

I think mass casualty was defined as 50 or more on a the plane.

That would be American Airlines 587 back in 2001 two months after 9/11 where the first officer tore off the vertical stabilizer with extreme rudder inputs.

Groovelord Neato has a new favorite as of 23:32 on Dec 7, 2021

BrianRx
Jul 21, 2007

Groovelord Neato posted:

Aeroflot 593 is probably the dumbest crash though Air France 447 is close.

Just read this after not being aware of the accident beyond "a plane disappeared near Brazil a few years ago, something something pitot tubes". I didn't realize the degree of pilot error involved. Goddamn, Bonin was a stupid rear end in a top hat. That was a really stupid mistake for a pilot with experience to make. He manually kept the aircraft in a stall nearly the whole way down. It sounds like if he had just let go of the stick, either the copilot or the plane itself would have recovered quickly.

Tenkaris
Feb 10, 2006

I would really prefer if you would be quiet.

BrianRx posted:

Just read this after not being aware of the accident beyond "a plane disappeared near Brazil a few years ago, something something pitot tubes". I didn't realize the degree of pilot error involved. Goddamn, Bonin was a stupid rear end in a top hat. That was a really stupid mistake for a pilot with experience to make. He manually kept the aircraft in a stall nearly the whole way down. It sounds like if he had just let go of the stick, either the copilot or the plane itself would have recovered quickly.

Ugh this really sucks, like I’m with you that I wish Bonin had tried anything else but then I read this bit:

quote:

In an article in Vanity Fair, William Langewiesche noted that once the AoA was so extreme, the system rejected the data as invalid, and temporarily stopped the stall warnings, but "this led to a perverse reversal that lasted nearly to the impact; each time Bonin happened to lower the nose, rendering the angle of attack marginally less severe, the stall warning sounded again—a negative reinforcement that may have locked him into his pattern of pitching up", which increased the angle of attack and thus aggravated the stall

And listened to the recording where it sounds like he’s on edge and maybe didn’t get enough sleep? Not great excuses but add in panic and instruments confusing you.. also his wife was on board the plane as well :( fuuuuuuck

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo

BrianRx posted:

Just read this after not being aware of the accident beyond "a plane disappeared near Brazil a few years ago, something something pitot tubes". I didn't realize the degree of pilot error involved. Goddamn, Bonin was a stupid rear end in a top hat. That was a really stupid mistake for a pilot with experience to make. He manually kept the aircraft in a stall nearly the whole way down. It sounds like if he had just let go of the stick, either the copilot or the plane itself would have recovered quickly.

I don't think he's entirely to blame- the pitot tubes failing the speed readings and bad training by Air France, as well as Air France allowing him to fly, were part of it, but also, yeah. He panicked in a job where that's the worst thing to do. He deserves blame but his family deserves a payout from Air France and/or Airbus too.

I've hosed around in the pilot's seat of a plane three times, landing every time was terrifying, and I had just one guy who could take control or die by my poo poo piloting. Every time I nearly panicked that I was going to explode us but did it ok. That's not directly relevant but it's really fun, and really reinforces that you really, really need lots of knowledge and experience. It's not physically or mentally that hard, but there's a ton of variables you need to know, and a ton of humility for deferring to the flight captain if you're a dumb babby pilot.

I guess that's why it costs grad school to get certified to fly an airliner passenger plane in the US, and even more in the EU. UK the Queen and God can help you sorry.

e: and yes the warnings hosed him up too- he was clearly panicking, which much like me trying to land, is not good, and points to not just him but to the airline, plane, and training that led him there, because he had the info to save the plane. If the plane stalls your first and correct reaction is nose down for airspeed then nose up to keep flying level. Back then, he wouldn't be taught that too much nose up on that plane would make the warning fail, or that iced picot tubes could make your airspeed bonkers. And someone prone to panic shouldn't have passed enough to be on that job, or be unrested enough to end up that way.

e2: like being able to control panic and defer to superiors/ask for assistance/remember poo poo like put the mask on at the slightest risk of pressure loss rather than freak like is as critical as understanding the instruments and controls.

Edgar Allen Ho has a new favorite as of 02:53 on Dec 8, 2021

Arsenic Lupin
Apr 12, 2012

This particularly rapid💨 unintelligible 😖patter💁 isn't generally heard🧏‍♂️, and if it is🤔, it doesn't matter💁.



Thanks! Bet Ask A Pilot decided to make the boundary something like "Major airline" even though people who book "Colgan Air operating as Continental Airlines flight 3407" think they're booking with a major.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo

Arsenic Lupin posted:

Thanks! Bet Ask A Pilot decided to make the boundary something like "Major airline" even though people who book "Colgan Air operating as Continental Airlines flight 3407" think they're booking with a major.

That's extremely common even now. Anything that isn't a big, big transoceanic or cross-continental airline flight is usually a smaller one bought out by one of the big ones under the brand name of their buyer. For example, as of right now, American Eagle regional flights, ostensibly all of American Airlines, actually consist of Piedmont Airlines, Mesa Airlines, Republic Airways, and SkyWest Airlines. Most of them are flying Bombardiers, small passenger jets like you'd take for a short 1-3 hour hop. Most are now owned and have nothing but replacement parts built by Mitsubishi, all the turboprops are now being built by the canadian De Havilland mentioned in being disastrous for turboprop flying above. Airbus now owns one of the good designs IIRC.

That applies to more than planes and pilots too. "Under the wing*" I wear a uniform from the contractor that actually employs me, working on planes from several airlines and FedEx. "Over the wing" I wear the uniform of the company the plane is branded as.

And American is not one of the brands I work with, that's just the companies and planes I know from talking to the American Eagle workers next door.

*but don't worry, we do not want your plane to crash on our watch

Edgar Allen Ho has a new favorite as of 04:41 on Dec 8, 2021

BrianRx
Jul 21, 2007




Now that you mention it, I think the bit about the stall warning sounding only when the autopilot considered the AoA sane enough to trust the instrument inputs was mentioned in the Wikipedia article. I am probably being too harsh or reductive in blaming Bonin individually. As you mentioned, it appears the pilots were unaware that the system would behave in this manner and would trust its warnings in the absence of more concrete information. Bonin's last words were along the lines of "this says we're about to hit the ground going very fast but that can't be right" which indicates a total lack of situational awareness and, at this point, faith in none of the information he was receiving. I will add though that the captain told Bonin to stop what he was doing and pulled him off the controls when he heard Bonin's explanation that he was pitching up as far as possible but the plane was still losing altitude, so it seems like it was clear to others that his actions were making things worse.

As mentioned and on second read, it's pretty apparent that Bonin was massively panicking and could not reason about the situation. I can't really judge him for not acting 100% correctly in the heat of the moment because I've never been in a similar situation, but his behavior is also at odds with that of other pilots in recovery situations, who seem (at least on transcripts) like they are calm enough to seek as much information as possible and try multiple other solutions until they can't anymore.

As I said, I'm probably being reductive in thinking about this as being so heavily his responsibility. The lack of training, the independent and uncoordinated actions taken by the pilots, as when Bonin and the other pilot were pushing the stick in opposite directions, the presence of other pilots in the cockpit who also failed to react to the loss of the airspeed indicator correctly, and the cascade of actions taken by the automated systems that weren't communicated to the pilots effectively were certainly all factors. It's just shocking that the loss of an airspeed sensor for just over a minute caused so much carnage.

BrianRx has a new favorite as of 10:15 on Dec 8, 2021

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

BattleMaster posted:

Yes, the actual Rhodesian Army put ads in Soldier of Fortune looking for anyone they could get their hands on



As I recall, that's the advert that led to the famous joke "Join the Army! Travel the world, meet interesting people, and shoot them".

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014


BrianRx posted:

Now that you mention it, I think the bit about the stall warning sounding only when the autopilot considered the AoA sane enough to trust the instrument inputs was mentioned in the Wikipedia article. I am probably being too harsh or reductive in blaming Bonin individually. As you mentioned, it appears the pilots were unaware that the system would behave in this manner and would trust its warnings in the absence of more concrete information. Bonin's last words were along the lines of "this says we're about to hit the ground going very fast but that can't be right" which indicates a total lack of situational awareness and, at this point, faith in none of the information he was receiving. I will add though that the captain told Bonin to stop what he was doing and pulled him off the controls when he heard Bonin's explanation that he was pitching up as far as possible but the plane was still losing altitude, so it seems like it was clear to others that his actions were making things worse.

As mentioned and on second read, it's pretty apparent that Bonin was massively panicking and could not reason about the situation. I can't really judge him for not acting 100% correctly in the heat of the moment because I've never been in a similar situation, but his behavior is also at odds with that of other pilots in recovery situations, who seem (at least on transcripts) like they are calm enough to seek as much information as possible and try multiple other solutions until they can't anymore.

As I said, I'm probably being reductive in thinking about this as being so heavily his responsibility. The lack of training, the independent and uncoordinated actions taken by the pilots, as when Bonin and the other pilot were pushing the stick in opposite directions, the presence of other pilots in the cockpit who also failed to react to the loss of the airspeed indicator correctly, and the cascade of actions taken by the automated systems that weren't communicated to the pilots effectively were certainly all factors. It's just shocking that the loss of an airspeed sensor for just over a minute caused so much carnage.

Bonin was a moron though like others said it wasn't totally his fault. I think if the Airbus controls were linked even with Bonin being a dope Robert would've realized Bonin was causing the stall right away and they could've avoided the accident. But yeah it's clear he panicked right away - he says something like I think we're going crazy fast when that makes less than zero sense even with the temporary loss of some measurements due to the iced pitot tubes (and if I remember right they were getting correct readings by then).

Langewiesche's article is worth reading:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-flight-447-crash

American Airlines 587 (the one that happened two months after 9/11 and the last mass casualty plane accident in the US) was a similar situation where the first officer did something highly irrational - after hitting wake turbulence his aggressive back and forth rudder inputs caused the vertical stabilizer to shear off. Also a case of poor training where they were taught to make far too aggressive rudder inputs in such a situation.

Groovelord Neato has a new favorite as of 14:59 on Dec 8, 2021

BrianRx
Jul 21, 2007

Hey, thanks for linking this. It covered a lot more ground than I expected. So: automation has led to a decline in piloting skills and the overall quality of pilots flying now compared to 20 or 30 years ago. While (or perhaps because) events requiring human intervention are exceedingly rare, pilots may not be equipped with the experience or knowledge necessary to react appropriately. As one of the flight control systems engineers said, if 98% of possible failures are accounted for in design, good luck to the pilots facing a situation in that last 2%.

Holistically, flight has gotten safer and it seems that accidents have decreased at a rate correlated to the progression of automation, suggesting pilots (or the point at which they interface with the aircraft) are and always have been the weak link. I wonder if this is similar to increasing rates of cancer corresponding with increases in life expectancy; once other causes of death become less common, the causes that can't be mitigated by medical interventions become more common and so in a sense can be seen as a positive trend.

So with that in mind, and not to be morbid or dismissive of the deaths of the passengers and crew, this may be an example of the consequence of the tradeoff between pilots and automated systems. Broadly, automation has made air travel much safer than it used to be and thus has saved hundreds or thousands of lives. On this flight, however, it cost lives, ironically, because it is so good that pilots with years of experience could not function for five minutes without it.

I'm not sure how I feel about air travel after reading that. I definitely feel safer in a general sense but disturbed by the possibility that level cruising at altitude could become a fatal accident due to extremely basic pilot error. I for sure look at pilots differently...

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo

BrianRx posted:



I'm not sure how I feel about air travel after reading that. I definitely feel safer in a general sense but disturbed by the possibility that level cruising at altitude could become a fatal accident due to extremely basic pilot error. I for sure look at pilots differently...

It's still extraordinarily safer than say, riding the bus, let alone god forbid a personal car or a motorcycle. Hell you're more likely to die as a pedestrian.

What you don't quite mention is that the interface between the human pilot and the automation is key. The pilots need to understand the whats, whens, and hows of the plane's automation.

Like in Aeroflot 593 above, the obvious horrific error was Kudrinskiy letting his kids play pilot at all. But the critical point was when the Airbus warning light that the ailerons were now under manual control came on. In a soviet plane, that would have been an audible alarm, not a silent light. Had the pilots been properly trained to fly an Airbus, they'd know the seriousness of that light coming on. They would have had enough time to correct before the ludicrous death spiral began.

So it all comes down to training the pilots to understand the systems of the plane they are flying.

Edgar Allen Ho has a new favorite as of 01:33 on Dec 9, 2021

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014


BrianRx posted:

Hey, thanks for linking this. It covered a lot more ground than I expected. So: automation has led to a decline in piloting skills and the overall quality of pilots flying now compared to 20 or 30 years ago. While (or perhaps because) events requiring human intervention are exceedingly rare, pilots may not be equipped with the experience or knowledge necessary to react appropriately. As one of the flight control systems engineers said, if 98% of possible failures are accounted for in design, good luck to the pilots facing a situation in that last 2%.

Holistically, flight has gotten safer and it seems that accidents have decreased at a rate correlated to the progression of automation, suggesting pilots (or the point at which they interface with the aircraft) are and always have been the weak link.

The 737 MAX disasters kinda proved the quoted person wrong because the pilots reacted correctly to the malfunction the problem was the plane.

Though Boeing did know about the issue and essentially "wrote off" the deaths they estimated the issue would cause in the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXMO0bhPhCw

One of the investigators of one of the crashes actually chokes up describing listening to the CVR the first time because he knew the pilots did exactly what they should've done and the plane still killed everyone.

Groovelord Neato has a new favorite as of 01:58 on Dec 9, 2021

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Remulak
Jun 8, 2001
I can't count to four.
Yams Fan

DRINK ME posted:

This was so sad it broke me for a bit; damp eyes and just had to stop everything for a few minutes. It’s such a horrible disease and scares the gently caress out of me thinking about my brain going that way, especially the early onset in the article.

I only learned who Stephen Glass was earlier this year when I watched the Shattered Glass movie as just a random pick on some streaming service. I was kind of fascinated by him and after checking Wikipedia I went on to read the original article, and a follow up article by one of his New Republic colleagues. Neither of those articles really fit this threads thesis but the original is a brilliant long form piece.

Neither of those really fit this threads thesis but the first is a brilliant long form read regardless.

I’m so goddamn happy every time this comes up, because the dumb piece of poo poo enabler Michael Kelly (Hank Azaria in the movie) was a worthless piece of poo poo with rich connected parents. He both hosed and hosed over underaged interns (not publicly reported, God I hate that guy). After Glass he kept falling upwards and cheer-leaded the second Iraq war as the editor of another ‘liberal’ publication.

Google him, or read articles like the above he’s some kinda saint of reporting that defended poo poo-stupid lies, the ‘hacker’ article was so loving dumb: http://penenberg.com/story-archive/hack-heaven/ .

I’m so happy he died during the Iraq invasion, riding with his beloved invasion force by sticking his head out like an rear end in a top hat (correction, AS an rear end in a top hat).

Only article that comes even close to reality I’ve ever read about that worthless waste of cum https://www.gawker.com/5993525/a-stupid-death-in-a-stupid-war-remembering-michael-kelly .

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