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Where would you draw the distinction between an indie and a, well, not-indie?
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Dec 6, 2021 06:56
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El Gallinero Gros posted:A lot of the time when the NWA champ lost the belt, it's because they wanted or needed time off. Terry Funk basically said he won the belt because his dad put him forth as a candidate when Jack Brisco wanted to get off the road. Like Bruno, Nick Bockwinkel was offered the NWA Title. He talked to some recent champions, did the math, and realized that whatever increase in take home pay there might be, it wasn't close to enough to justify abandoning the part-time AWA schedule where he still made fantastic money and had tons of days off. edogawa rando posted:Where would you draw the distinction between an indie and a, well, not-indie?
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Dec 6, 2021 07:28
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I would definitely say it's an ownership thing. If it's considered a subsidiary, or a publicly shared company with a shareholder board, it's not an indie. ROH was an indie until Sinclair acquired them. Impact is owned by Anthem Sports. WWE is a publicly traded corporation. MLW is... I guess under a controlling interest by a holding company, so I have no idea whether that would be considered independent. GCW & PWG are indies. NWA was a territory network, but now it's an indie because it's a single privately owned company. AEW, shockingly, could also be considered an indie because it's a private company - it just has an extremely high budget. sticklefifer fucked around with this message at 09:40 on Dec 6, 2021 |
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Dec 6, 2021 08:26
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The classic "is Half-life an indie game?"
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Dec 6, 2021 10:28
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sticklefifer posted:GCW & PWG are indies. NWA was a territory network, but now it's an indie because it's a single privately owned company. AEW, shockingly, could also be considered an indie because it's a private company - it just has an extremely high budget. By that logic WWF was an indie until 1999 and going public. Which is obviously absurd. Indie is one things that has no one criteria. Yeah, if it's publicly traded/owned by a public company then it isn't an indie, but it doesn't really work the other way. Once your Annual turnover is over a certain point you probably don't get to be an indie anymore. What's that cutoff point? Dunno mate. Alternatively, if you use pyro you're no longer an indie.
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Dec 6, 2021 10:54
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I always figured an indie had no national TV. So WWE, AEW, Impact, and MLW are for sure not indies. NJPW Strong is a part of NJPW so it’s not an indie either. You wouldn’t call AEW Dark an indie. The rest are indies. Maybe if NWA Powerrr starts getting a million views every week and selling out arenas I’ll reassess my methodology.
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Dec 6, 2021 11:50
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To me a company ceases to be an indie when they are giving a significant portion of their wrestlers contracts and are not booking truly independent talent.
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Dec 6, 2021 15:39
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MassRafTer posted:To me a company ceases to be an indie when they are giving a significant portion of their wrestlers contracts and are not booking truly independent talent. Yeah this is how I always saw it. If you’re contracting people and either locking them down or taking priority for their bookings (specifically by contract and not just because the wrestler likes working for you and chooses to do it themselves), you’re not an indie.
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Dec 6, 2021 15:55
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not indie wwe aew njpw aaa cmll dragongate stardom noah ddt tjpw ganbare pro tna roh the wwe client state promotions if they arent defunct who knows indie (complimentary/neutral) gcw pwg the crash iwrg bjw/freedoms/etc all the joshi feds new/aaw/apw/cwfh/etc indie (pejorative) mlw ajpw nwa all of britwres Super No Vacancy fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Dec 6, 2021 |
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Dec 6, 2021 16:09
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Please do not throw pejoratives at All Japan 
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Dec 6, 2021 17:19
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forkboy84 posted:By that logic WWF was an indie until 1999 and going public. Which is obviously absurd. Speaking of indies, how does WrestleCade get such big names for its cards? Do they just pay really well, or are they affiliated with people who have connections? sticklefifer fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Dec 6, 2021 |
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Dec 6, 2021 21:58
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sticklefifer posted:You're right, I was thinking of this after posting it, and I think a big part of the criteria should also be a major TV deal. Even if you're not owned by a larger company, if your content is beholden to what network censors and advertisers say you can put on your show, you can't really call yourself "independent" either. So I'd concede that no company ownership + marketing/televising with your own resources (or even with some sponsorship) = indie. Though I'm sure there are exceptions. IIRC they're sponsored heavily
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Dec 6, 2021 22:49
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What was worse, the Reign of Terror or the LOL Cena Wins period?
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Dec 7, 2021 03:53
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Objectively the Reign of Terror because Cena's run was buoyed by kids and had some level of growth/stability. Reign of Terror helped no one - not the fans, not the wrestlers, not the company. The one thing against Cena is his run suppressed several generational talents which i dont think the Reign of Terror did. With that said the Jarrett TNA Reign of Terror was even worse than Triple H's.
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Dec 7, 2021 04:10
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Lid posted:Objectively the Reign of Terror because Cena's run was buoyed by kids and had some level of growth/stability. Reign of Terror helped no one - not the fans, not the wrestlers, not the company. The one thing against Cena is his run suppressed several generational talents which i dont think the Reign of Terror did. Yeah but people actually saw Trips reign of terror.
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Dec 7, 2021 04:28
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I'd like to see a HHH vs Cena vs Jeff Jarrett talent run killed list I feel like HHH or Cena had to be worse because I can't remember anyone JJ killed for a long time besides Truth and Styles? And Cena killed Truth as well? HHH squashed Booker, RVD, and Orton?
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Dec 7, 2021 04:45
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Defenestrategy posted:I'd like to see a HHH vs Cena vs Jeff Jarrett talent run killed list JJ definitely killed Raven. He recovered but never to the extent that he should have.
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Dec 7, 2021 04:55
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why do people clap before doing a dropkick? is it a signal to the other wrestler that they're going for it, a timing thing, maybe it's just cool? iunno, but it stands out when other moves don't have that (or maybe i don't recognise the signal for them)
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Dec 7, 2021 05:09
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Renaissance Spam posted:What was worse, the Reign of Terror or the LOL Cena Wins period? HHH, especially because other parts of the product were still really well booked at the time so sitting through the same loving 20 minute HHH promo every week really loving sucked.
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Dec 7, 2021 05:54
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Artelier posted:why do people clap before doing a dropkick? is it a signal to the other wrestler that they're going for it, a timing thing, maybe it's just cool? iunno, but it stands out when other moves don't have that (or maybe i don't recognise the signal for them) That's a good question. It's so obvious that it can't just be a thigh slap alternative, can it?
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Dec 7, 2021 06:08
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I assume it's a sort of non-verbal signal that's mainly used in puro because it was necessary to come up with something to tell the other guy "okay now react to this" without speaking in Japanese because of the roots of Japanese pro wrestling in general.
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Dec 7, 2021 06:13
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GEORGE W BUSHI posted:HHH, especially because other parts of the product were still really well booked at the time so sitting through the same loving 20 minute HHH promo every week really loving sucked. Plus at least Cena was a babyface beating up heels. HHH was a heel who booked himself to be cooler and smarter than all the babyfaces and it got disheartening and boring really fast.
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Dec 7, 2021 06:14
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Defenestrategy posted:I'd like to see a HHH vs Cena vs Jeff Jarrett talent run killed list JJ killed Monty Brown too but the bigger thing is his run killed TNA in the crib from ever being a viable opposition which Trips and Cena didn't do. The thing about reigns of terror is they have to be not the top person in the company but positioned as such and actively harmful. Thinking about it Cena's worst act was after cenawinslol when he was used to sabotage CM Punk's title reign because at that point he didn't need to be the main event. Well that and killing The Nexus but in one of those weird domino effects that lead to Bryan Danielson in the mainstream. Edit: importantly Cena ended the JBL Reign of Terror which gets kind of forgotten about.
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Dec 7, 2021 06:19
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All of John Cena's 1v1 opponents on PPV starting with his world title win (losses in bold): JBL, JBL, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle (DQ), Kurt Angle, Edge (MITB cash-in), Edge, Sabu, Edge, Edge, Umaga, Umaga, Shawn Michaels, Great Khali, Great Khali, Bobby Lashley, Randy Orton, Randy Orton (DQ), Randy Orton (DQ), JBL, Triple H, JBL, Batista, Chris Jericho, Chris Jericho, JBL, Edge, Big Show, Big Show, Mi, Randy Orton, Randy Orton, Randy Orton, John Cena, Sheamus, Batista, Batista, Sheamus, Wade Barrett, Wade Barrett, The Miz, R-Truth, CM Punk, CM Punk, Alberto del Rio, Alberto del Rio, Kane (n/c), Kane, The Rock, Brock Lesnar, John Laurenaitis, Big Show, CM Punk (n/c), Dolph Ziggler, The Rock, Ryback (n/c), Ryback, Mark Henry, Daniel Bryan, Alberto del Rio, Randy Orton, Randy Orton, Bray Wyatt, Bray Wyatt, Bray Wyatt, Brock Lesnar, Brock Lesnar (DQ), Randy Orton, Seth Rollins, Rusev, Rusev, Rusev, Rusev, Kevin Owens, Kevin Owens, Kevin Owens, Seth Rollins, Seth Rollins, Alberto del Rio, AJ Styles, AJ Styles, AJ Styles, Rusev, Baron Corbin, Roman Reigns, The Undertaker, Triple H, Bray Wyatt, Roman Reigns All of Triple H's 1v1 opponents on PPV starting with his post-quad heel turn in 2002 to present (losses in bold) Shawn Michaels, Rob Van Dam, Kane, Shawn Michaels, Scott Steiner (DQ), Scott Steiner, Booker T, Kevin Nash (DQ), Kevin Nash, Kevin Nash, Goldberg, Goldberg, Shawn Michaels (n/c), Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit, Eugene, Randy Orton, Shawn Michaels, Randy Orton, Batista, Batista, Ric Flair, Ric Flair, Big Show, John Cena, King Booker, Carlito, Randy Orton, Randy Orton, Umaga, Umaga, Jeff Hardy, Randy Orton, Randy Orton, John Cena, Edge, Great Khali, Jeff Hardy, Jeff Hardy, Randy Orton, Randy Orton, Sheamus, Sheamus, The Undertaker, CM Punk, Kevin Nash, The Undertaker, Brock Lesnar, Brock Lesnar, Daniel Bryan, Sting, Roman Reigns, Seth Rollins, John Cena, The Undertaker, Batista, Randy Orton Neither of these tell the whole story since it's ignoring multiman matches, Raw matches, burials via promos/post-match things, and so on. But I think it underscores one of the differences between the Cena and HHH reigns of terror: the depths of HHH's Reign of Terror wasn't him burying up and comers, it was bringing in the likes of Steiner/Nash/Goldberg and trying to get them to put on 15-20 minute Epics that they were blatantly incapable of doing, while doing increasingly self-indulgent back-and-forths with his buddy Shawn and later his buddies in Evolution. His single matches with HBK in that period ran 27m50s, 38m33s, 23m05s, and FORTY SEVEN MINUTES each. These four matches took place in the span of under two years, and this isn't including two HBK/HHH focused Elimination Chambers that ran over an hour combined in the same period. Some of them were pretty good because HHH was pretty good and HBK was very good, but trying to even kind of replicate those with aging versions of Steiner/Nash/Goldberg (their singles matches averaged like 13-15 minutes a pop) was awful. Even if Cena went over way too many time, by the second or third year of Supercena at least the matches were entertaining before the inevitable end.
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Dec 7, 2021 06:49
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Malcolm Excellent posted:Some of the baddest motherfuckers on the planet are on that plane and they're all craving action
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Dec 7, 2021 06:51
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Glancing at that Cena list, the thing of it was after finishing with JBL the crowd wanted no part of cheering him over Jericho, they *definitely* didn't want to cheer him over Angle and by the time he got to Edge we were well on the way to Cena Sucks. Then Cenamania went on for a gajllion more years
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Dec 7, 2021 06:57
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Lid posted:
gently caress I forgot he killed dead one of the most intriguing angles that WWE had produced in awhile with the nexus. Also I guess by proxy being around Cena in storyline killed Matt Cardonas relevancy. While I guess HHH didn't really suppress anyone who wasnt already fairly high up except Orton at the time.
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Dec 7, 2021 07:12
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On the other hand, as frustrating as cenawinslol was, at least it didn't do what the HHH v. Booker T and WM19 feud did. gently caress that loving match and the build to it can go get hosed too.
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Dec 7, 2021 10:31
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Lid posted:Objectively the Reign of Terror because Cena's run was buoyed by kids and had some level of growth/stability. Reign of Terror helped no one - not the fans, not the wrestlers, not the company. The one thing against Cena is his run suppressed several generational talents which i dont think the Reign of Terror did. I'd argue that the Reign of Terror was restricted to Raw due to the original brand split, so at least they had other stuff going on. A big portion of lol Cena Wins was after they merged the brands again, so Cena was always top billing. I remember a quote from one of the ECW One Night Stands where Paul Heyman said the only reason JBL became champion was because Triple H didn't want to work Tuesdays.
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Dec 7, 2021 10:47
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As frustrating as Cena was I could at least rationalise he was the top babyface and that's why he won. My frustration is more with Vince who cut the Nexus angle off soon and didn't push guys like Bryan.
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Dec 7, 2021 11:02
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edogawa rando posted:On the other hand, as frustrating as cenawinslol was, at least it didn't do what the HHH v. Booker T and WM19 feud did. I know i'm a minority here but I put that alongside Umaga for the same reasons. Not Cena politicking but Umaga was what Vince McMahon saw Samoa Joe as and i still see it as such a racist caricature played completely straight. That it's remembered fondly is bewildering to me.
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Dec 7, 2021 11:02
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Lid posted:I know i'm a minority here but I put that alongside Umaga for the same reasons. Not Cena politicking but Umaga was what Vince McMahon saw Samoa Joe as and i still see it as such a racist caricature played completely straight. That it's remembered fondly is bewildering to me. It's because it was about as well as a racist caricature can be done. And that's ultimately on the shoulders of Jamal/Umaga, who got what can charitably called an 80s throwback gimmick & along with Estrada got the most of it. You can't really hold it against the worker that he got saddled with a savage gimmick
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Dec 7, 2021 11:21
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forkboy84 posted:It's because it was about as well as a racist caricature can be done. And that's ultimately on the shoulders of Jamal/Umaga, who got what can charitably called an 80s throwback gimmick & along with Estrada got the most of it. You can't really hold it against the worker that he got saddled with a savage gimmick "Waaaaaaitaminute, hold the phone, that's Toooooony Atlas!" (sound of Vince McMahon furiously backpedaling)
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Dec 7, 2021 11:33
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What leaps to my mind is when the Usos debuted about 2010 they literally had a promo at the time about how they weren't the Samoans the WWE were used to, that they were more modern and had college degrees and the like. I remember it being kind of weird to go on about that. Then you remember Umaga's last match was May 2008. Literally two years before the Usos debuted, they still had a Samoan savage character running around. A really tiny note to their credit, they started backing off the savage thing a bit at the end of Umaga's run, which led to the odd offhand comment from Punk(Umaga's last WWE feud) going "oh yeah you can talk now". Generally I never blame the wrestler if their saddled with a lovely, racist gimmick. Jamal did the best he could with the weird throwback, and had a few killer matches. It was most definitely not his idea. Ditto for Mark Copani and Muhammed Hassan, and One Man Gang and Akeem, etc. (As a random aside, Armando Estrada is portrayed by a Palestinian guy. You know, for bonus racist points.) You can definitely throw shade at Triple H IMO for the Booker angle. If Booker won at WM19, it'd barely register as a blip to most people. It probably wasn't the best way to do it, but Booker's RL story is a pretty rags to riches affair, and Racist looking down at Black Person for trying to succeed is not exactly a story people can't get behind - provided the black person wins. As is, it's a racist anti-climax that tells a jarringly bad story and adds to the pile of evidence of that suggest Paul Leveque is a man with a shockingly fragile ego.
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Dec 7, 2021 15:14
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Lid posted:JJ killed Monty Brown too but the bigger thing is his run killed TNA in the crib from ever being a viable opposition which Trips and Cena didn't do. As someone who didn't watch TNA during that period (though a friend did happen to order the Jarrett/Brown PPV, so I did see that), what I always found telling was how sparse the LOLTNA list was on this era. For a couple years, there was very, very little on the list outside of Jarrett stuff. It made it really apparent how harmful he must have been to the product overall.
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Dec 7, 2021 15:29
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No guys when he said people like you he meant former WCW employees.
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Dec 7, 2021 15:39
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algebra testes posted:As frustrating as Cena was I could at least rationalise he was the top babyface and that's why he won. Yea nobody is saying gently caress John Cena or HHH the person, reigns of terror imo are categorized by one person constantly going over at the expense of everything else to the point it makes the product stale because everyone else on the roster looks like a dummy for a long period of time. Like at this point I don't know if Roman reigns could count as a reign of terror because it's not like the rest of the product even has good enough booking to say that if WWE didn't just book reigns as the best coolest and most unbeatable tribal chief that they'd probably make a better product. Whereas with HHH/Cena outside of the main event there was cool stuff happening, and even the booking involving Cena would be good if they sat back and went "look we have to have competent foils otherwise who cares if Cena notches another victory" Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Dec 7, 2021 |
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Dec 7, 2021 16:48
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Defenestrategy posted:Yea nobody is saying gently caress John Cena or HHH the person, reigns of terror imo are categorized by one person constantly going over at the expense of everything else to the point it makes the product stale because everyone else on the roster looks like a dummy for a long period of time. Like at this point I don't know if Roman reigns could count as a reign of terror because it's not like the rest of the product even has good enough booking to say that if WWE didn't just book reigns as the best coolest and most unbeatable tribal chief that they'd probably make a better product. I am saying gently caress HHH the person. (May he rest in peace) Cena and his reign were cool.
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Dec 7, 2021 17:12
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Defenestrategy posted:Yea nobody is saying gently caress John Cena or HHH the person, reigns of terror imo are categorized by one person constantly going over at the expense of everything else to the point it makes the product stale because everyone else on the roster looks like a dummy for a long period of time. Like at this point I don't know if Roman reigns could count as a reign of terror because it's not like the rest of the product even has good enough booking to say that if WWE didn't just book reigns as the best coolest and most unbeatable tribal chief that they'd probably make a better product. Posting as an only occasional WWE observer and only a recent AEW watcher, Roman Reigns is definitely a reign of terror. HHH was already exhausting before the original brand split, which was when I stopped following WWE regularly 20 years ago. Now when I go "oh some WWE is on lets see what's happening" and I see crap like the recent Finn Balor thing where they basically bend the universe back on itself to give Roman the win and the broadcast acts like everyone is enjoying what they're seeing. The product as a whole feels like the goal is to keep Roman on top, and to make sure that none of the other talent on the show is given a chance to outshine Roman, so everything is dragged down to his level. That's a worse reign of terror than HHH (and again, I only saw the very beginning of that) where we at least found wrestlers we liked and enjoyed their runs up to challenge him.
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Dec 7, 2021 17:25
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I think a big part is there's no obvious new 'guy' who's clearly being groomed for the top, like AEW did with Page. Even if it's not Reigns that puts them over, there needs to be someone the audience can put some faith in. If they'd built it properly, Big E could maybe have been it, and they're trying as much as WWE ever does with him, but it could've been really easy to build to him being the one to topple Roman. Hell, the New Day/Bloodline thing even gives you ways to have them in matches without just doing the same singles match with a non-finish 18 times. But instead we get the Survivor Series thing which is like an rear end-backwards version of a Japanese promotion doing the junior champ vs the heavyweight one. Instead of a guy positioned as lower-tier getting a rub for taking the top guy to the limit, it's two guys who are supposedly equal, and instead clearly positions one as MUCH lower-tier.
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Dec 7, 2021 17:31
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