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The new Civic sedan is legitimately one of the nicest cars on the market right now at any price. Audi and VW have been making wonderful cars as well. Too much of the market is gaudy bullshit for nouveau riche trash, or poor attempts at aping it on the lower end.
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Dec 7, 2021 00:38
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Wheeee posted:The new Civic sedan is legitimately one of the nicest cars on the market right now at any price. Audi and VW have been making wonderful cars as well. So basically a lot of luxury marques are catering to the Chinese market which represents a potential majority of all purchases/leases.
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Dec 7, 2021 01:56
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Inner Light posted:Have you driven a modern Audi? I have been bitten by a liking for the poor man's luxury / entry level luxury, and I really like the A4. It seems less flashy and ostentatious than the 3 Series and C Class entrants, and feels solid and a lovely place to be. Perhaps I'm just old but nothing about the current A4 really impressed me - the big Skoda hatchback is cheaper, more comfortable, more spacious and has the same engine choices.
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Dec 7, 2021 03:13
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If I had to choose a German luxury car today, I'd probably go with Audi precisely because they've remained the most grounded and boring in terms of design and will take longer to look dated. I'm pretty introverted and don't like drawing attention to myself. I don't want to make a statement with my car or my clothes or my hair or anything. So if I also want a nice car, it's going to be an understated one. I reserve the statement-making for the inside of my house (which is Victorian AF). Tom Guycot posted:Whenever I've though of "BMW" in my life, its always felt like the quintessential boring looking luxury car brand. Well made and such, i'm sure, but a BMW has never caused an "oooh" reaction or head turn on the road, they just all get filed away in my mind as "bland car owned by a bland manager". So while that SUV thing posted earlier was hilariously ugly to me (but then, every crossover/suv is inherently ugly to a greater or lesser extent), I can at least say it doesn't look boring. Disgust is, in the end, an emotional reaction after all What I was getting at in my bit about a BMW being the car to aspire to if you were the "discerning" type was that you had to get past the understated, austere design and "discover" for yourself how cool BMWs actually were underneath the unassuming exterior. Which means folks who like BMWs are surely on to something, and now you can be part of the club by also liking them. It's a good, smug feeling and all part of the brand experience. But more recently they've dispensed with all that and just cut to the chase with bolder, louder designs that make it so you can experience an emotional response right then and there. I also like to think the focus back then was more on a car and driving experience for you, the driver-owner, rather than for your peers judging your status/wealth/taste in cars. It took me a while to get comfortable driving my old bimmer (yay stick shift), but once it clicked, I'd literally just go driving by myself for the sake of driving, and that's not something I've done since or even had the desire to do with any of the subsequent cars in my life. That's the part that I want to feel again. I just want my lead-colored old buddy back.  I still haven't fully forgiven my parents for donating it while I was away at college.quote:But then what do I know, I have bad taste and the last time I bought a car was over a decade ago. Hell, I'm a designer and I question my own taste all the time. I recently bought an F-150 and I love it. 
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Dec 7, 2021 03:48
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I am convinced that much like a lot of self-proclaimed business experts think Tesla's high share price is because the cars are good, many people working in design departments think the cybertruck is good and people like it. BMW XM smacks of trying to go in that direction. It's also a very visible trend in interiors, where interior design departments think Tesla interiors are good, so they do "modern" things like haptic poo poo on steering wheels and replacing everything with awkward big screens. Most car reviewers then immediately go "wow that's a big screen", and only a few say "wow that's a big screen, shame it's hard to use it as a car, but then again wow that's a big screen".
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Dec 7, 2021 10:51
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Obviously the Giulia is the only valid sports sedan choice at this point  E: phone keyboard mobby_6kl fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Dec 7, 2021 |
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Dec 7, 2021 13:36
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Zeppelin Insanity posted:It's also a very visible trend in interiors, where interior design departments think Tesla interiors are good, so they do "modern" things like haptic poo poo on steering wheels and replacing everything with awkward big screens. Most car reviewers then immediately go "wow that's a big screen", and only a few say "wow that's a big screen, shame it's hard to use it as a car, but then again wow that's a big screen". I think/hope that we may be starting to see the end of this. I know the plural of anecdote isn't data, but I've seen a trend in the last little while of reviews/commentary actually engaging with tech features. The example that comes to mind is the near-unanimous refrain that the haptic controls in the new GTI/R are a nightmare to use and really affect living with the car day-to-day. Also see talk about the stupid Tesla yoke at slow speeds. mobby_6kl posted:Obviously the Giulia is the only valid sports sedan choicenat this point Yup.
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Dec 7, 2021 14:38
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The Tesla yoke should be illegal. I have no idea why regulators permitted it.
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Dec 7, 2021 14:42
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Zeppelin Insanity posted:I am convinced that much like a lot of self-proclaimed business experts think Tesla's high share price is because the cars are good, many people working in design departments think the cybertruck is good and people like it. BMW XM smacks of trying to go in that direction. It's also a very visible trend in interiors, where interior design departments think Tesla interiors are good, so they do "modern" things like haptic poo poo on steering wheels and replacing everything with awkward big screens. Most car reviewers then immediately go "wow that's a big screen", and only a few say "wow that's a big screen, shame it's hard to use it as a car, but then again wow that's a big screen". Let's see what the interior of an actual product and not a concept before we get up in arms about how the interior looks. I suspect that BMW knows this thing is going to sell like crazy (at least for that market) I personnally think they're right, the Urus, the SQ8 and the G63 AMG have proved that there's a market for people who want to pay $150k for a "performance" SUV and those people want to make a statement.
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Dec 7, 2021 15:37
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Wheeee posted:The new Civic sedan is legitimately one of the nicest cars on the market right now at any price. Audi and VW have been making wonderful cars as well. Every review I've read or seen on the new Civic has been nothing but positive. I really wish they would have created a hatchback Si instead of that abomination of an Integra. Kraftwerk posted:The Tesla yoke should be illegal. I have no idea why regulators permitted it. Look at you, worried about such minor details as the other half of the steering wheel. Where we're going you're going to be in the passenger's seat making a bologna sandwich while tapped into the Metaverse®.
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Dec 7, 2021 17:15
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Queen Victorian posted:If I had to choose a German luxury car today, I'd probably go with Audi precisely because they've remained the most grounded and boring in terms of design and will take longer to look dated. I'm pretty introverted and don't like drawing attention to myself. I don't want to make a statement with my car or my clothes or my hair or anything. So if I also want a nice car, it's going to be an understated one. I reserve the statement-making for the inside of my house (which is Victorian AF). I remember reading some articles that said the Audi board of directors had sent the second gen Q7 back to the drawing board to "take out some of aggressiveness" from it's exterior design. Apparently they wanted to appeal to the Russian market but were concerned that the design would cause them to lose market share elsewhere. Audi manufactured a Russian market only version of the previous gen Q7 called the "quattro sport edition" that had different front bumper and larger side skirts to make it look more aggressive. I've also read that Mercedes EQ line of EVs have been designed to primarily go after the Chinese market. However, Audi decided against that and stuck to their standard design language for the e-tron GT EV.
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Dec 7, 2021 17:15
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Mr. Apollo posted:One of the reasons I bought an Audi RS5 Sportback was because I really liked its design. I'm partial to Audi's quieter design. I know that to some it's sterile, but they generally are my favorite between audi/bmw/benz. Sometimes the porsche version (if there is one) looks better, but not every time. I much prefer the A7 to the Panamera.
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Dec 7, 2021 18:05
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It is wild to me that someone would buy an Audi for its design when those designs include dumb poo poo like putting the timing chain and its fragile tensioners on the back end of the engine, putting all the weight in front of the front axle of "sporty" models, and whole front ends that need to come off for a timing service.
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Dec 7, 2021 18:21
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PBCrunch posted:It is wild to me that someone would buy an Audi for its design when those designs include dumb poo poo like putting the timing chain and its fragile tensioners on the back end of the engine, putting all the weight in front of the front axle of "sporty" models, and whole front ends that need to come off for a timing service. Most people buying Audi’s don’t know any of that because they don’t have to because the car is leased or otherwise under warranty and it’s not their problem.
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Dec 7, 2021 18:28
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PBCrunch posted:It is wild to me that someone would buy an Audi for its design when those designs include dumb poo poo like putting the timing chain and its fragile tensioners on the back end of the engine, putting all the weight in front of the front axle of "sporty" models, and whole front ends that need to come off for a timing service. We are talking exterior/interior design not mechanical foibles. I can mad lib your sentence with BMW and any litany of things or Benz etc.
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Dec 7, 2021 18:30
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Most people buying Audi’s don’t know any of that because they don’t have to because the car is leased or otherwise under warranty and it’s not their problem. Honestly, are there any cars manufactured today where reliability/durability outside of the warranty period is a consideration? I'm genuinely curious. Everyone always blathers on about the Land Cruiser being one of them. Is that it? How about 4Runners? The Lexus equivalents? Anything else?
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Dec 7, 2021 18:30
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Residency Evil posted:Honestly, are there any cars manufactured today where reliability/durability outside of the warranty period is a consideration? I'm genuinely curious. Everyone always blathers on about the Land Cruiser being one of them. Is that it? How about 4Runners? The Lexus equivalents? Anything else? All the Japanese brands with maybe Nissan and Subaru being an exception.
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Dec 7, 2021 18:32
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PBCrunch posted:It is wild to me that someone would buy an Audi for its design when those designs include dumb poo poo like putting the timing chain and its fragile tensioners on the back end of the engine, putting all the weight in front of the front axle of "sporty" models, and whole front ends that need to come off for a timing service.
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Dec 7, 2021 18:35
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Just loving lol if you think I'll own this Audi a day over the warranty. I knew what I was getting into and Ill do it again
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Dec 7, 2021 19:33
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Residency Evil posted:Honestly, are there any cars manufactured today where reliability/durability outside of the warranty period is a consideration? I'm genuinely curious. Everyone always blathers on about the Land Cruiser being one of them. Is that it? How about 4Runners? The Lexus equivalents? Anything else? Basically anything that isn't a European luxury car? Like it's pretty trivial to get a modern car to 100k miles with just basic maintenance.
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Dec 7, 2021 19:51
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Neo_Crimson posted:Basically anything that isn't a European luxury car? Like it's pretty trivial to get a modern car to 100k miles with just basic maintenance. It’s probably pretty trivial to get a European luxury car to 100k with basic maintenance. Even the dreaded Audi timing chain doesn’t need to be serviced until 130k miles.
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Dec 7, 2021 20:00
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Neo_Crimson posted:Basically anything that isn't a European luxury car? Like it's pretty trivial to get a modern car to 100k miles with just basic maintenance. Yeah, most modern cars these days will run 100 to 150K miles no problem with basic preventative maintenance. Follow the owner's manual and you should be fine. The problem is people don't do that. I have notice a fair uptick in major issues from the factory though. GM is having major issues with their V8 right now and failing lifters/pushrods. People buying 80K Yukons and the engine failing with like 3K miles on it.
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Dec 7, 2021 20:03
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Neo_Crimson posted:Basically anything that isn't a European luxury car? Like it's pretty trivial to get a modern car to 100k miles with just basic maintenance. Looks nervously at Macan with 130k miles. What's the standard service life of a car these days versus the 90s? 10 years?
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Dec 7, 2021 20:16
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skipdogg posted:Yeah, most modern cars these days will run 100 to 150K miles no problem with basic preventative maintenance. Follow the owner's manual and you should be fine. The problem is people don't do that. Cylinder deactivation is just a bad idea. If Honda can't make it work without customer engines blowing up, then it just isn't a viable concept.
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Dec 7, 2021 21:24
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Zeppelin Insanity posted:It's also a very visible trend in interiors, where interior design departments think Tesla interiors are good, so they do "modern" things like haptic poo poo on steering wheels and replacing everything with awkward big screens. I can't help but think we're entering a period of rapid (and probably fraught) interface evolution in car interiors. Dashboards and controls have not fundamentally changed for the better part of century (like today's average driver could look at the dash/controls of a car from the 1930's and understand what was going on and how it worked (minus being able to identify archaic poo poo like the choke)), but there's some serious upheaval and paradigm shifts happening with all this high tech poo poo becoming cheap and portable enough to put into any and all new cars. It's so much and so new and coming so fast that we're going to see quite a few Tesla's out in front moving fast and breaking things because "the future" or whatever. Some of the poo poo they've been doing recently is hilariously awful, like putting the gear shift on the loving touch screen and making it a finger swipe motion. In general, heavy reliance on touch screens for essential controls in a car is really really bad. Dealing with the touchscreen in a moving vehicle is difficult and annoying, especially when you can't look at it (because you're driving) and doesn't provide definitive tactile feedback. Yeah, yeah, haptic feedback and all that, but a little vibration or whatever is a poor substitute for grabbing a lever/knob with your whole hand, moving it, and feeling it click into its new position. I really appreciate the F-150's have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too approach to incorporating new digital/touchscreen poo poo: they added a big-rear end touchscreen while keeping all the conventional physical controls. They were able to pull it off because it's a large vehicle with a ton of dashboard real estate. Everything essential to driving the truck is reassuringly conventional and tactile - normal steering wheel and stalks, old school column shifter, horn where you expect it to be, handy steering wheel shortcut buttons, electronic parking brake but controlled by a lever, etc. You can turn the screen off if you want and still have climate and stereo controls. Once you enter your destination, navigation doesn't require a screen because it's giving you audial instructions. Supposedly there are voice commands for everything as well, but I haven't set it up/tried it out yet. Overall it's an excellent transitional state - you still have your familiar controls while being exposed to new digital stuff. It's a safe, comfortable way to go about it. What's bad is when the familiar stuff gets taken away and replaced with some half-baked novel bullshit. It's jarring and unintuitive at best, unsafe at worst. Kraftwerk posted:The Tesla yoke should be illegal. I have no idea why regulators permitted it. Yeah the yoke is just  . I've not found any sound technical/practical explanation or justification from Tesla other than it looked cool (because there is none). A yoke is optimally designed to control an airplane, which maneuvers so fundamentally differently from a car that the controls do not translate. Like, airplane yokes typically have a 180 degree range of motion, so 90 degrees in either direction. Sometimes less. Because airplanes don't steer like cars. Yokes are absolutely not meant make multiple full rotations. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. The Tesla yoke is so wide that it obstructs access to the left end of the touchscreen and you have to around it to do the dumb finger swipe gear shifting. I kind of have to reach around the steering wheel with the column shifter, but the column shifter is a real thing I can grab and it is angled to accommodate how I actually bend my arm and have my hand positioned when I reach for it. There's no ergonomic accommodation or consideration for how you swipe gears with the Tesla yoke in the way because there can't be - it's just the main touchscreen, not a dedicated tactile input that takes the yoke size/placement and your body position into account. And then there are the silly touch-sensitive buttons replacing the stalks. The thing about touchscreen or touch-sensitive controls on a flat surface is that button placement indication is purely visual, which is not a good thing if you're driving and can't look at it. I mean, you can learn their positions via memorization, but without being able to look at it, it's like playing a theramin (the one instrument that provides zero physical indication or feedback and for that reason is exceedingly difficult to play). You fix this with tactile buttons/controls that you can find/identify by touch without memorization and that physically respond to being pressed. And of course there's the issue with the buttons being on the yoke (instead of on stalks on the column) and rotating around when you make a sharp turn and drastically changing position. It adds considerable cognitive load by forcing you to keep track of where they are they are according to how much you've rotated the yoke (which, of course, is super awkward because yokes are intended to have a limited range of rotational motion), as opposed to stalk controls that are always in the exact same place. And apparently it's very easy to brush your hand against the touch buttons while hand over hand steering and accidentally honk or signal or turn on the windshield wipers, so even more cognitive load because you have to be precisely aware of how you're gripping the thing while turning so you don't accidentally press something.In conclusion, the Tesla yoke is profoundly problematic and an extremely bad, unsafe design for multiple reasons. I hope it is outlawed. Also I'm wondering if any bona fide automotive UI designers were even involved in the development of it. If there were, they must have gotten quite a lot for their souls.
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Dec 7, 2021 22:34
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Does Tesla have some kind of special relationship with the NTSB or whatever regulator is responsible for the rules of car manufacturing? Like it's obvious the yoke was another stupid tech-bro idea to make it on brand with the "autopilot" feature because someone thought it'd be cool to make you feel like you're flying a jet when using the tesla. This and the tendency to gate all basic car functions behind haptic feedback touch panels and touch screens are the most infuriating trends I've experienced in the automotive world.
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Dec 7, 2021 23:30
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Tesla is the world’s biggest pump and dump scheme and there’s way too much institutional capital tied up into it at this point for any regulator to be allowed to touch them
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Dec 7, 2021 23:59
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the first video I saw of a Tesla owner using the new yoke he was trying to make it look as good as possible and he still accidentally triggered the horn once and failed to trigger the turn signal twice.
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Dec 8, 2021 00:03
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I was pleasently surprised that Audi kept real buttons on the steering wheel of the e-tron GT EV and not the capacitive ones that are so popular right now. They also kept the physical climate controls and didn’t use the touch screen controls like on the new A6, A7, and A8.
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Dec 8, 2021 01:18
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Queen Victorian posted:I really appreciate the F-150's have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too approach to incorporating new digital/touchscreen poo poo: they added a big-rear end touchscreen while keeping all the conventional physical controls. They were able to pull it off because it's a large vehicle with a ton of dashboard real estate. Everything essential to driving the truck is reassuringly conventional and tactile - normal steering wheel and stalks, old school column shifter, horn where you expect it to be, handy steering wheel shortcut buttons, electronic parking brake but controlled by a lever, etc. You can turn the screen off if you want and still have climate and stereo controls. Once you enter your destination, navigation doesn't require a screen because it's giving you audial instructions. Supposedly there are voice commands for everything as well, but I haven't set it up/tried it out yet. Overall it's an excellent transitional state - you still have your familiar controls while being exposed to new digital stuff. It's a safe, comfortable way to go about it. What's bad is when the familiar stuff gets taken away and replaced with some half-baked novel bullshit. It's jarring and unintuitive at best, unsafe at worst. It would be interesting to see what it would look like if you made a GUI-less physical control for every function available through the screen of a modern car. Kraftwerk posted:Does Tesla have some kind of special relationship with the NTSB or whatever regulator is responsible for the rules of car manufacturing? Like it's obvious the yoke was another stupid tech-bro idea to make it on brand with the "autopilot" feature because someone thought it'd be cool to make you feel like you're flying a jet when using the tesla. Maybe wheel just has been such an obviously good interface for car steering that no one outside of concept cars have tried anything else, and there has been no need to regulate what kind of device you use to steer a car. Who knows, maybe it's perfectly legal to sell a car that is controlled by WASD or gamepad.
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Dec 8, 2021 01:27
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Saukkis posted:Maybe wheel just has been such an obviously good interface for car steering that no one outside of concept cars have tried anything else, and there has been no need to regulate what kind of device you use to steer a car. Who knows, maybe it's perfectly legal to sell a car that is controlled by WASD or gamepad. Four wheel steering with a QWOP control scheme using a keyboard or game pad sounds pretty hilarious as a screw-your-opponents type power up in a video game like Mario Kart. It also sounds so stupid I can't help but worry some start up trying to "disrupt things" will implement it in real life.
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Dec 8, 2021 01:54
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Queen Victorian posted:In conclusion, the Tesla yoke is profoundly problematic and an extremely bad, unsafe design for multiple reasons. I hope it is outlawed. Also I'm wondering if any bona fide automotive UI designers were even involved in the development of it. If there were, they must have gotten quite a lot for their souls. But Knight Rider, bro! If a Trans Am could drive itself around and had a yoke in the 1980s why can't a Tesla do the same today????
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Dec 8, 2021 02:19
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Kraftwerk posted:Does Tesla have some kind of special relationship with the NTSB or whatever regulator is responsible for the rules of car manufacturing? Like it's obvious the yoke was another stupid tech-bro idea to make it on brand with the "autopilot" feature because someone thought it'd be cool to make you feel like you're flying a jet when using the tesla. The NTSB is an investigatory agency only. The NHTSA is the regulatory agency responsible for vehicle safety. I'm pretty sure it comes down to Air Bud rules, "it doesn't say in the rules wheels have to be round."
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Dec 8, 2021 02:20
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Charles posted:The NTSB is an investigatory agency only. The NHTSA is the regulatory agency responsible for vehicle safety. I'm pretty sure it comes down to Air Bud rules, "it doesn't say in the rules wheels have to be round." Pretty sure this isn’t the first time Tesla has gotten away with something so stupid there never had to be a rule against it before
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Dec 8, 2021 02:24
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Fabulousity posted:Four wheel steering with a QWOP control scheme using a keyboard or game pad sounds pretty hilarious as a screw-your-opponents type power up in a video game like Mario Kart. I feel proud that I understand that sentence start to finish. SA is such a weird little intersection of interests
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Dec 8, 2021 03:21
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OTA update to triple the steering rate, problem solved! (alternatively, $50/mo to activate)
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Dec 8, 2021 03:34
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ryanrs posted:OTA update to triple the steering rate, problem solved! AI adaptive steering that used the speed and cameras to determine how much steering input turns the wheels. In a parking lot 180 degrees is lock to lock. Highway 700 degrees is lock to lock. In between deep learning will figure it out.
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Dec 8, 2021 03:48
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Saukkis posted:It would be interesting to see what it would look like if you made a GUI-less physical control for every function available through the screen of a modern car. By "GUI-less" do you mean no screens at all or just no using touchscreens for input but still using non-interactive screens for display? The former would be effectively impossible if you were to include all the computerized functionality found in a modern car (but would work if your only electronic things were headlights, climate control, and a radio), but I think the latter would be doable with some caveats. We had a brief era of screen-centric devices with non-interactive screens and non-keyboard & mouse interfaces. Think early gen iPods. Didn't last long because touchscreens became a viable alternative pretty quickly. So if you were to make a car interface with no touchscreen inputs, you'd probably cook up something akin to the iPod interface to navigate around the options. You would need to put a lot of care into the software interface to work with the less-than-full-keyboard input and reduce the need for most if not all input more complex than poo poo like yes/no and previous/next. The biggest issue would be inputting addresses for navigation. But honestly in my opinion the best route to go with car interfaces (for poo poo other than the driving part) is really good voice recognition and language processing. Right now (outside of projects like Watson) we're still largely running on canned scripts that map really closely to how we'd get around a computer, like verbally navigating through a menu to access something or asking it to run a web search for something. I think once we get to the point where we can talk to the car in the same way we'd talk to another person, then we'll see cumbersome touchscreen interfaces disappear. At least I hope - personally I just want good physical, tactile controls for driving and the basic peripherals (like volume - tapping an intuitively located button would be infinitely preferable to interrupting your favorite part of the song to tell the car to turn up the volume by three levels) and then high quality language processing for natural language management of poo poo like navigation and configuring settings. But by that point we'll probably have achieved non-poo poo autonomous driving. quote:Maybe wheel just has been such an obviously good interface for car steering that no one outside of concept cars have tried anything else, and there has been no need to regulate what kind of device you use to steer a car. Who knows, maybe it's perfectly legal to sell a car that is controlled by WASD or gamepad. I don't know how many of you have driven a Bobcat or similar skid-steer loader, but it doesn't have a typical wheel/handlebars/yoke apparatus at all, rather dual joysticks to each side that control left and right wheels respectively. You do the tractor stuff with pedals and buttons on the joysticks. It's surprisingly intuitive, especially having played video games before. Basically I'm saying a dual joystick UI could be pretty fun and possibly not as terrible as a loving yoke with 900 degrees of rotation. Or not because skid-steers handle differently and top out at like 12mph.
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Dec 8, 2021 05:08
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BMW iDrive can be controlled entirely with the puck in the center console and so can whatever Mazda's is called. Probably also Audi and Merc, but I don't know for sure. Lexus, too, but they managed to make it terrible in the process.
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Dec 8, 2021 06:31
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A yoke only works if you never have to take your hands off the wheel like in a F1 car.
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Dec 8, 2021 06:41
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