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yeah people were really out of pocket thinking the show that used insanely flimsy pretenses to bring in Ant Man and Thor bit players while acting as an origin for a second Captain Marvel in service to a plot that ultimately set up a Dr Strange movie and a show about space aliens might be introducing new characters
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Dec 8, 2021 00:33
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People were absolutely convinced that the bee suit guy in WandaVision was Swarm and not just how Wanda’s subconscious magically charmed a hazmat suit, no it was clearly the MCU debut of d-list Spider-foe: Nazi made of bees.
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Dec 8, 2021 01:44
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They should bring back Luke Cage. The MCU needs more black superheroes.
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Dec 8, 2021 03:00
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Sanschel posted:People were absolutely convinced that the bee suit guy in WandaVision was Swarm and not just how Wanda’s subconscious magically charmed a hazmat suit, no it was clearly the MCU debut of d-list Spider-foe: Nazi made of bees. I thought the big theory was AIM.
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Dec 8, 2021 03:45
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Gaunab posted:They should bring back Luke Cage. The MCU needs more black superheroes. They should "adapt" David Walker's Powerman and Iron Fist for Disney+ and recast slightly older. Forget all the characterizations from Netflix and start fresh with some street as gently caress Heroes for Hire and Daughters of the Dragon poo poo.
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Dec 8, 2021 03:52
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Gaunab posted:They should bring back Luke Cage. The MCU needs more black superheroes. If they wanna go the route of soft-reboots, they should just introduce Cage and Iron Fist into the MCU as Heroes for Hire.
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Dec 8, 2021 04:34
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maybe echo's crimeboss uncle is netflix luke cage
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Dec 8, 2021 04:50
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Next up is Spider-Man 1 Raimi rewatch. I don't know...honestly without Norman on the screen this movie is just kind of boring. Online fandom often notes how toxic MJ can be in these films but honestly Peter isn't doing too well either. We're told that Peter and Harry are best buds but Peter continues to pursue MJ throughout this film even after he knows she is formally dating Harry. Another thing with MJ often playing a damsel in distress is that for one scene, right before the in-the-rain kiss, she isn't just a complete damsel in distress. She actually fights back and knocks down one or two of the muggers, but she is simply overwhelmed. It totally makes sense why someone with a backstory like her, coming from an abusive household, would be able to defend herself and I don't know why later movies just kind of simply forgot about this.
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Dec 8, 2021 05:07
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One thing I always found odd about the first Raimi movie is that it just takes for granted he becomes Spider-Man. There's the scene after the graduation where May tells him he's destined for great things and then as he stares at his costume design sketch Ben's words echo in his mind and then time skips into a montage of him stopping crimes. It's not the most obvious logical thing for him to want to be a masked vigilante.
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Dec 8, 2021 06:25
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I just watched the first two Raimi movies the other day and I straight up didn’t remember how MJ bounced between abusive men in those; her dad, her lovely boss at the diner, Harry once goblin dad gives him a psychotic lecture about how worthless women are. Peter isn’t much better; he uses Spider-Man as an excuse to stay emotionally distant and immature, then begs her to give him a chance once she’s engaged and convinces her to drop the only mature, stable man she’s ever had in her life for him.
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Dec 8, 2021 06:53
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Raimi movies really do MJ dirty. She feels there because at the time they felt there needed to be something to entertain the guys who have come for spider-man, and she barely has a character outside of Peter's object of obsession. Wanting to be an actress is a not a character, being poo poo on by all the men in her life is not a character, constantly needing to be rescued by a guy in a goblin costume or with robot tentacles or a goopy alien is not a character. Last time I watched the Raimi movies is they had great action, people were hamming it up, but Peter is kind of a huge piece of poo poo to basically everyone around him because he's worried about being Spider-Man and what that does. He's not as dour and humorless as ASM Parker, but he's still not our goofy unlucky nerd Parker. It's sorta like if someone played Clark Kent as super hot awesome Chad Bro Jock, its kind of the opposite of who the character is generally seen as. There are comics were Parkers serious, i know Ditko was a stick in the mud square for the 60s so he put some grumpy white guy attitudes in his Peter, but one of the reasons Spider-Man is so popular is that he's fun and friendly both in an out of the costume, and that helps when you do have the big serious moments it becomes more impactful because you can tell this is a character who really is just barely keeping it together. I could be wrong, but that's certainly the Peter Parker thats what I think about and Holland is as close as we've gotten.
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Dec 8, 2021 09:16
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I enjoy the Raimi movies for what they are, but they do feel more like they're about painting an iconic picture of broad strokes Spider-Man stuff instead of getting into the nitty gritty, which tends to leave a lot of things (for example, anything that is unique about Mary Jane's personality) to the wayside Which makes a lot of sense when you consider the time period they were coming out in, but the serialized nature of the MCU really changes the entire equation in that regard And not to beat a dead horse, but it really makes me baffled by the people who hate the Holland Spider movies. I get having a preference, but other than "here are some movies with Spider-Man" these flicks are not even kind of doing anything resembling the same thing, to the point that none of the Raimi villains have even shown up in the MCU movies before literally crossing over into them. It's like if someone preferred the Schoemaker/Nolan Batman movies to the point of claiming they wish the other was more like the one they favor. If they are going to keep throwing different versions of existing, popular stuff at up on the screen, then the more variety in the takes, the better.
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Dec 8, 2021 09:28
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twistedmentat posted:I could be wrong, but that's certainly the Peter Parker thats what I think about and Holland is as close as we've gotten. This is why I love that deleted Far from Home scene where's he wrecking mafia dudes in the restaurant (and still takes time to patch the fish tank). If I have a complaint about the Holland movies, it's that they don't have enough being a goofball while fighting street-level crime and doing flips.
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Dec 8, 2021 15:01
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OnimaruXLR posted:And not to beat a dead horse, but it really makes me baffled by the people who hate the Holland Spider movies. I get having a preference, but other than "here are some movies with Spider-Man" these flicks are not even kind of doing anything resembling the same thing, to the point that none of the Raimi villains have even shown up in the MCU movies before literally crossing over into them.
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Dec 8, 2021 15:19
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My eternal Raimi era Spider-Man hot take is that Maguire was miscast, and the worst* of the film Peter Parkers *with the proviso that I haven't seen enough of either of the ASM movies to really have an opinion on Garfield
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Dec 8, 2021 15:27
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OnimaruXLR posted:I enjoy the Raimi movies for what they are, but they do feel more like they're about painting an iconic picture of broad strokes Spider-Man stuff instead of getting into the nitty gritty, which tends to leave a lot of things (for example, anything that is unique about Mary Jane's personality) to the wayside I sort of get what you're going for here, but honestly, I've always felt the Raimi movies are very much interested in the very early comics (edit: I think it's one reason why he was so resistant to including Venom in film 3). Like the Ditko and maybe the early Romita Sr stuff. And as twistedmentat noted, some bits of what many would think of as key parts of Spidey aren't quite fully formed there. Ditko leaned into Peter being kind of a stuffy loner and Romita had the whole matinee idol/romance comic vibe. And I think that bleeds into stuff like MJ not having much agency/development. They even make sure to have her get the most infamous 'damsel' moment in the comics even though that wasn't even her. She's not there to be Mary-Jane Watson (or Watson-Parker), she's there to be Spider-Man's Girlfriend and that means she's basically Gwen Stacy at times, but not the actual Gwen of the comics, but the ideal of Gwen that existed mostly in people's imagination until Spider-Gwen (or maybe Ultimate or Sins Past) came along. It kind of presages a later vibe I get from the JJ Abrams Star Wars and Trek films, where they're not making something based off the source so much as based off fuzzy memories of the source that are a bit faded and muddled. Like an impression of an impression that you can still sort of tell who it's meant to be but doesn't really sound like the person at all. That approach is probably why JK Simmons is the one who comes off the best in the Raimi stuff, because Jameson really IS often that flat and broad in the comics, so it rings true when he does those beats, even if some more of the nuance like the scene where he lies to Osborn about knowing who takes the Spider-Man pictures would've been nice. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Dec 8, 2021 |
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Dec 8, 2021 15:38
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The three Raimi movies made it clear to me that he only had interest in the Silver Age Spider-Man stuff. Which means that yeah, a lot of characterization doesn’t happen.
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Dec 8, 2021 15:49
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I didn't like the part of the Holland Spider-Man movie where Iron Man fucks over smaller business-owners and blue collar laborers and faces zero consequences for it, and Peter gets depicted as a petulant child if he is ever critical about Stark, and the guy who Stark hosed over becomes an extremist villain who kills people just so we know that we can't be on his side. At the time, the MCU's tendency to depict anyone with anti-establishment ideals as extremist villains who kill people was just kinda irritating...but in hindsight, considering the status quo nowadays, this depiction of the Toomeses and the Karlis out there feels particularly vile.
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Dec 8, 2021 15:57
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Yeah that is one issue I had with Homecoming Toomes had a point with how Tony hosed them over And I do agree that it’s weird that Peter spent two films dealing with villains that were the result of Tony being an rear end in a top hat
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Dec 8, 2021 16:00
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Honestly, the big sign that Raimi was focused on the silver age? Betty Brant appears in all 3 movies and even flirts with Peter in the first one.
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Dec 8, 2021 16:24
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It's the government in Homecoming. Stark's a partner in Damage Control but it's an executive order that takes away Toomes' contract.
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Dec 8, 2021 16:29
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You can also see why Stark might want to be involved and why the government might want that too. There's already criticism of superheroes, especially in the MCU, just absolutely wrecking house and then immediately bouncing. It stands to reason that for both parties they'd benefit from having someone who was involved in making the mess also be involved in clearing it up - even if it's just PR.
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Dec 8, 2021 16:40
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I'm not really sure that a band of maintenance guys should get their pick of alien weapons tech just because they were there first
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Dec 8, 2021 16:44
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Raimi adapted Spider-Man as if it got cancelled not long after The Night Gwen Stacy Died.
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Dec 8, 2021 16:46
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It's insane how bad MJ is in the Raimi films versus how many people are still online rallying against Zendaya for not being like Dunst's performance. I know it's just that she doesn't have red hair and is not white but it's the pits.
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Dec 8, 2021 16:47
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SonicRulez posted:It's insane how bad MJ is in the Raimi films versus how many people are still online rallying against Zendaya for not being like Dunst's performance. I know it's just that she doesn't have red hair and is not white but it's the pits. Honestly, part of it is probably that they're pulling from the Ultimate version of MJ as much as the regular 616 (which is obviously just a rationalisation for the lion's share of the complaints even so). She's not a model/actress, she's a STEM smartie-pants (granted Bendis dropped the 'brainy Janey' thing really early in USM, but he still moved her into being more of an investigator/journalist, which is likely where the PS4 game got that angle too)
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Dec 8, 2021 16:51
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Fangz posted:I'm not really sure that a band of maintenance guys should get their pick of alien weapons tech just because they were there first Yeah, the Government/Stark don't really go about it in the most elegant fashion, but a central authority spearheading the cleanup really is the correct way to go about it. Now they certainly could've subcontracted to Toomes, or made him whole on the contract he had with the city that got tossed out, but then we wouldn't have had a movie.
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Dec 8, 2021 16:51
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I love the Raimi films, I think they are far and away the best superhero films ever made - well, not 3, I'm a defender but it's incredibly flawed - however even I got to say MJ is a glaring weak point in those films. She really does get buffeted around by all the male characters, by the end of 3 where she is once again endangered it becomes almost parody. As for MCU Spider-Man I really do think Stark is the biggest problem with those films, and also their weird desire to barely reference Spidey's core motivation. I know it's a dead horse, but by removing the guilt aspect, it just feels like Spider-Man's main motive in Homecoming is "I want to be an Avenger cause it is rad", which of course is gonna feel less emotionally impactful then "I need to help people because I'm traumatised by the one time I should have and didn't". The end of Homecoming should have been Spidey realizing that Stark is a TERRIBLE role model and rejecting him entirely, maybe even telling him off and forging his own path with a new homemade suit that looks like OG Spider-Man but isn't stark made. But instead it's a very wishy washy rejection of being an Avenger that keeps the halo on Stark and then immediately gets undone in Infinity War. There's a scene in FFH where Spider-Man is stuck in the Netherlands and it feels like a classic "how's he gonna get out of this one" moment, but then he's rescued by his friend in a private jet and builds a new suit to beat Mysterio with the power of superior funding. It's weird! Karloff fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 8, 2021 16:53
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Also am I misremembering but didn't Tony step back from running Stark enterprises? It's Pepper Potts' fault
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Dec 8, 2021 16:56
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I think part of it is not wanting to repeat the Uncle Ben stuff, but the other problem is that if you bring in other tragedies, like Gwen or George Stacy, not only do you risk people stupidly accusing them of copying/being unoriginal, you also get the MCU social media superfans get in a tizzy because any instance of killing a character as a narrative choice/device is akin to literal murder. (I think it's kind of telling that one of the biggest moments of character development MJ gets in the comics is ALSO due to Gwen's death. That scene where she closes the door to stay with Peter as he grieves is very powerful.) So if you can't have him defined by tragedy, and you're beholden to a teen Peter, then 'superhero fanboy' is an easy angle to to take.
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Dec 8, 2021 16:58
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howe_sam posted:My eternal Raimi era Spider-Man hot take is that Maguire was miscast, and the worst* of the film Peter Parkers I mean, Garfield was not a good Peter at all but that had more to do with the scripts than Garfield. Dude was cocky and overconfident and doing sick ollies. Which worked fine when he was suited up, but not otherwise. Not a fan of Maguire either because 1964 "golly gee willikers, WHEATCAKES" Peter in the aughts is a hard sell at best.
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Dec 8, 2021 16:59
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Rev. Bleech_ posted:I mean, Garfield was not a good Peter at all but that had more to do with the scripts than Garfield. Dude was cocky and overconfident and doing sick ollies. Which worked fine when he was suited up, but not otherwise.
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Dec 8, 2021 17:05
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FlamingLiberal posted:Yeah I like a lot of aspects of the Raimi films, but it feels like a movie out of time in some respect. Aspects are VERY 2000s, but some of it feels like the Spider-Man movie you'd make at the same time the Donner Superman came out. Like, that Superman movie is also very much adapting a specific vibe of the comics, but it's much more contemporary to that period.
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Dec 8, 2021 17:06
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Fangz posted:I'm not really sure that a band of maintenance guys should get their pick of alien weapons tech just because they were there first It's not like they just showed up. Toomes bid and got the contract, and put a lot of money into the company to expand to handle the job. The government taking over is fine. It's not reimbursing him that's the problem.
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Dec 8, 2021 17:09
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He definitely feels like the biggest dork from a bygone era. Like people will say Tobey's Peter Parker was a throwback to the earlier Ditko stuff before he was the jocular guy hanging out at the Coffee Bean with the gang but the things that characterize early Peter to me are angst and anger and having a chip on his shoulder. Instead we get him as a cross between Droopy Dog and Leave it to Beaver.
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Dec 8, 2021 17:19
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Lobok posted:He definitely feels like the biggest dork from a bygone era. Like people will say Tobey's Peter Parker was a throwback to the earlier Ditko stuff before he was the jocular guy hanging out at the Coffee Bean with the gang but the things that characterize early Peter to me are angst and anger and having a chip on his shoulder. Instead we get him as a cross between Droopy Dog and Leave it to Beaver. Which is kinda why I say it's more of a hazey memory of what that era was like. Basically conflating the later 'dorky tryhard' with the early stuff. It's like Cliff Robertson and Rosemary Harris as Ben and May even during the high school portion. Logically these two people probably shouldn't be in their mid-70s if Ben's brother has a son who's 16 unless there was a HUGE age gap between the two Parker boys, but the comics depicted them as ancient, so here we are. (Has there ever been anything to suggest that Lee and Ditko meant them to be a great-aunt and uncle or other older relatives that were 'aunt and uncle' for simplicity?)
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Dec 8, 2021 17:30
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Aphrodite posted:It's not like they just showed up. Toomes bid and got the contract, and put a lot of money into the company to expand to handle the job. We don't really know that he didn't get reimbursed.
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Dec 8, 2021 17:45
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Fangz posted:We don't really know that he didn't get reimbursed. tony stark didn’t get rich reimbursing people
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Dec 8, 2021 17:47
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He can afford to pay off the cost of renting a few trucks. Last we heard on the matter is "If you have a grievance, you may take it up with my superiors." We don't know whether Toomes is pissed over his expenses and breach of contract, or if he's pissed at the lost profit opportunity of selling alien tech to the highest bidder. What Toomes' crew say to each other afterwards is "It's too bad. We could have made some pretty cool stuff with all that alien junk." Not "oh no, how do we avoid bankruptcy" Fangz fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Dec 8, 2021 |
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Dec 8, 2021 17:50
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We do, it's a whole part of the cold open. You don't go from that conversation to a hard cut of them being thieves intending to imply he got his money back. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Dec 8, 2021 |
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Dec 8, 2021 17:50
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