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Comrade Fakename posted:lol I wonder what running a database of newspaper pieces through an academic plagiarism detector would yield.
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Dec 9, 2021 13:07
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Lord of the Llamas posted:I wonder what running a database of newspaper pieces through an academic plagiarism detector would yield. Cat tax
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Dec 9, 2021 13:11
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I don't think we will ever have "good" politics in most of our lifetimes but we will definitely get some funny politics, and that's almost as good.
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Dec 9, 2021 13:16
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Zalakwe posted:When I worked in Scottish Politics (circa 2005-2010) I think the SNP being a loose grouping of various nothing causes and other ideologies plus independence thing was generally true but a decade in power has made something of them. They still don't believe in all that much but they are a powerful brand now and that's important for winning elections. I'd argue it's a little more complex - the SNP believe in one thing: Scottish independence. I don't think it's the case that it's members believe in nothing beyond that, just that they've all agreed that that is the priority, and to achieve the best odds of it happening they need to bury their other disagreements temporarily, at least publicly. So they seem to be a nothing party but really that's just a huge success of the party infrastructure. The SNP leadership are easily the savviest politicians in Britain today, and they maintain rock solid party discipline. No matter how much they tried, I'm not sure how they'd avoid breaking down into factionalism post independence, when the big goal was achieved. Maybe they'd get a term or two out of momentum, but beyond that? And who's voting for them? Only a tiny fraction of their voter base are single issue independence voters. The political landscape would have to shift dramatically because the one thing keeping the radical independence wing and the tartan tory wing from tearing each other up would be gone.
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Dec 9, 2021 13:18
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Lord of the Llamas posted:I wonder what running a database of newspaper pieces through an academic plagiarism detector would yield. 
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Dec 9, 2021 13:21
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Failed Imagineer posted:True, but tbh I think I'd take the Tory-lite cunts we have here over the British Tory-lite wet egg cunts Tbh Scottish independence would be a very different thing to Irish independence, at least in the fact that our independence movement does not extensively overlap with Catholic fundamentalists. I feel like the worst case scenario would be 'little changes' really.
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Dec 9, 2021 13:21
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Zalakwe posted:They are very like the Lib Dems for me, you don't really need to believe all that much to join, but vitally they do have a uniting cause to rally round. The Lib Dems haven't had that in ages or arguably ever. Believing in nothing ideological in particular has its advantages as well, it's easy to get people on board and you can be really flexible in policy terms. The 'Party of Remain', remember, til 2019 showed that this hell country is really keen on Leave at which point it got dropped like a hot potato. But I know several Lib Dem FBPE types who were very much on that train, one of whom left the party once they said they wouldn't be campaigning to rejoin.
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Dec 9, 2021 13:22
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keep punching joe posted:If you accept the premise that English politics is hosed for the next 20 years, what's stopping you from moving? It's the lowest bar of emigration, don't even need a passport. As I understand it, the claim is that a boring government that does the sensible thing in a global pandemic and spends a bit more money on stuff is the ultimate threat. One which every true Leftist should spend the last drop of your nk in their keyboard fighting against, or something. If that’s so, the solution is not to move to Scotland.
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Dec 9, 2021 13:24
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why d'you keep outsourcing these things jesus
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Dec 9, 2021 13:25
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ThomasPaine posted:I'd argue it's a little more complex - the SNP believe in one thing: Scottish independence. I don't think it's the case that it's members believe in nothing beyond that, just that they've all agreed that that is the priority, and to achieve the best odds of it happening they need to bury their other disagreements temporarily, at least publicly. So they seem to be a nothing party but really that's just a huge success of the party infrastructure. The SNP leadership are easily the savviest politicians in Britain today, and they maintain rock solid party discipline. Sorry I haven't been clear. I don't think it's necessarily that their members don't believe things, it's just that there is no requirement to believe much beyond independence is good which makes the barrier for entry really low. I also think that a lot of the active membership are happy enough to put their beliefs aside for the sake of being part of the brand which is part of what maintains discipline. If you want to do anything in Scottish politics right now, anything at all, you still join the SNP. If you hang around politics long enough you'll see these shifts, wannabe Labour politicians defected to the Lib Dems on mass the day after the first leader's debate in 2010 then had gone back again within the year. I know this because I was running a Lib Dem target seat campaign at the time (Deus propitius mihi) and a bunch of 19 year olds in suits showed up the morning after the debate. Being on the winning team was a lot more important than policy. Re. factionalism I think a new dominant one would emerge to control the brand, but it would take time and might be the start of a slow decline along the lines you describe - see UK Labour.
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Dec 9, 2021 13:30
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I can't say I have any inclination to vote for Labour on its current form. I wasn't especially enthused by 'Red Ed' in 2015 but voted Lab to at least try and put a dent in the Coalition. But now Labour spends half its time actively telling people of even my political outlook (social democracy of the sort that's unremarkably centrist in most of Europe and well to the right of Corbyn/McDonnell et al...lol) to gently caress off and leave them alone and the other half basically daring me to not vote for them because "who else are you going to vote for? So you want another Tory goverment?  " I might as well take them up on their offer. It will make no actual electoral difference because I'm in a safe deep-blue constituency so the overall effect will be the same whether I vote Labour, Green, Other or don't vote at all. But I really, really don't want to do anything that might be read as an endorsement of Starmer's actions/inactions as Labour leader. While I absolutely agree that continuing Conservative governments are going to be the worst option (a matter of life or death for some) in the immediate term, the most annoying option would be a right-wing Labour (under Starmer or similar) drifting to a small majority government through Conservative gently caress-ups and apathy (Biden style...) and then crowing for evermore about how it proves that The British People Want Centrism and only Blair and Starmer have won elections for Labour in the past half century and all that poo poo. On that basis, Labour crashing even harder in 2024 than in 2019 would be very satisfying. And in the broader picture it's a sort of "nothing of value was lost" deal, because instead of 20+ years of Conservative governments heading ever right-wards, the other choice was 14 years of Conservative governments, five (maybe ten, let's be really generous) years of Labour governments that - at very best - put a halt on that movement (if history and current performance is anything to go by they'll gleefully embrace it in an effort to prove how not-left-wing they are), then another 10+ years of Conservative governments to keep loving things up.
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Dec 9, 2021 13:34
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Tijuana Bibliophile posted:why d'you keep outsourcing these things jesus Why do you hate the free* market? *government gives all the money to one private company
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Dec 9, 2021 13:37
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ThomasPaine posted:I'd argue it's a little more complex - the SNP believe in one thing: Scottish independence. I don't think it's the case that it's members believe in nothing beyond that, just that they've all agreed that that is the priority, and to achieve the best odds of it happening they need to bury their other disagreements temporarily, at least publicly. So they seem to be a nothing party but really that's just a huge success of the party infrastructure. The SNP leadership are easily the savviest politicians in Britain today, and they maintain rock solid party discipline. I agree that there's probably not many single-issue independence voters, but I think that masks the greater truth that there's not many issue voters, full stop. I don't think that's how the majority of the electorate actually weigh up their choices come election time, if they did, Corbyn's Manifesto of Well-Established Popular Policies in 2017 would have carried him into power. There's a strong institutional inertia that comes with being the party of Government and being the party that achieves independence tends to put you in that position. Suddenly it's in the media's interest to support the SNP rather than denigrate them, and given that the SNP can maintain their position in the face of media hostility, I expect them to do very well when that situation changes. It's certainly possible the SNP will split in the aftermath, but I'd well wager that the largest share of SNP politicians are going to be Very Sensible Liberals. I expect they'll find a way to compromise with the tartan tory wing on a new centrist vision for Scotland, and the people who'll vote for them will be, for the most part, any former SNP voter not previously strongly committed to socialism. The radical independence types might split off, might go to the Greens, but I see no reason the SNP aren't just going to end up like Fianna Fail.
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Dec 9, 2021 13:40
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It's worth appealing the congestion charge. it costs you nothing and they can actually be quite reasonable sometimes. Re Carrie, she is a pretty horrible person in her own right who has chosen with eyes wide open to associate with Boris & Co . She put herself in that position, and in the public eye: she is fair game. The Xmas party being the thing that possibly brings Johnson down is a bit like Al Capone ultimately being jailed for tax evasion.
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Dec 9, 2021 13:43
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Regarde Aduck posted:yeah and because it'll take years, possibly a decade at best, for a new party to establish itself, this pissing about is extra dire More importantly is what exactly is supposed to be the point of a party that has a target electorate, in the diagram posted above, of the two strands leading downwards from Labour since 2019? Those strands represent enough people to have cool parties and maybe run a website or something. They are not an electoral base that can compete in, or even really influence, elections. It certainly doesn’t seem large enough to organise some kind of Maoist insurgency. What’s the end goal here that things are supposed to be accelerating towards?
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Dec 9, 2021 13:45
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Just gonna set out my difficulties with the "let Labour die" argument - as I understand it, it's: Step one: socialists leave Labour Step two: ??? Step three: Labour dies Step four: ??? Step five: The problem with step 2 is that the reason why Labour is dying (imo) is because of irreconcilable differences between the left & right of the party. The left leaving just means that the right win, Labour becomes the Tory-lite liberal party of the middle classes. They will eventually find corporate backers, most of the unions will stick around to preserve their influence (don't forget that the trade unions nowadays overwhelmingly represent middle class professionals, & the bigger unions have developed perverse incentives to not actually change much in order to preserve their own existence). The party doesn't die, it just sucks harder. The problem with step 4 is that the formation of every major party in UK history has been a major seismic shift. Tories (& Whigs) are (/were) as old as Parliamentary democracy. Liberals were born from the industrial revolution. The Labour Party was born from the foundation of the unions (themselves born from a century of violence). There is literally no example of a major party growing from grass roots (e: forgot about the nationalist parties here, but national independence movements are pretty clearly their own thing). Imo the best that can be hoped for is like a left-UKIP, exerting pressure on the Labour Party. Which, like, cool, I guess, but the Labour Party dying, or going more right wing, directly contradicts that. Personally, I'm still a member, because imo in order for there to be a major left party it has to be the legitimate political wing of the labour movement, which Labour still is, sadly. Right now, Labour happy to kill itself fighting left wing Labour members like me, and if it does that, cool, the unions will need to form a new party I guess, there's our new socialist (or at least unambiguously pro-union) party. I'm not voting for them though lmao. Borrovan fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Dec 9, 2021 |
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Dec 9, 2021 13:50
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I wasn't particularly bothered by the owen jones tweets comparing his earlier homework to her later paid works. She'd changed all the words around like I would do, what are the rules on this? Crappy little articles don't have bibliographies. She wrote it in 2008, when he was a nobody fresh out of uni so its a bit lol I guess now, although I suppose she wasn't much older.
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Dec 9, 2021 13:52
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crispix posted:wwururrurhhghgh bunufuht claymuhnts to recite the nushunahl unthum at our wahr mumoriuhls ruarwhghh At first I thought this was just a bit more I genuinely worry that you might be like one of those automatic writing people but cursed to channel the thoughts of Kodos after he took over the body of Starmer. Actually switching sci-fi rails but his physical deterioration since taking over as leader is alarmingly similar to the skinsuit shown alien from Men in Black
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Dec 9, 2021 13:58
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NotJustANumber99 posted:I wasn't particularly bothered by the owen jones tweets comparing his earlier homework to her later paid works. She'd changed all the words around like I would do, what are the rules on this? Crappy little articles don't have bibliographies. She wrote it in 2008, when he was a nobody fresh out of uni so its a bit lol I guess now, although I suppose she wasn't much older. Perhaps we should expect better of journalists than blatantly cribbing Wikipedia and undergrad theses to discuss modern events.
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Dec 9, 2021 13:59
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NotJustANumber99 posted:I wasn't particularly bothered by the owen jones tweets comparing his earlier homework to her later paid works. She'd changed all the words around like I would do, what are the rules on this? Crappy little articles don't have bibliographies. She wrote it in 2008, when he was a nobody fresh out of uni so its a bit lol I guess now, although I suppose she wasn't much older. Honestly I wasn't all that convinced. Unless there was something deeply revelatory about Owen's thesis that would have required her to have read it to make those observations, none of what he cited seemed particularly damning to me as opposed to just a case of two people writing about the same topic and making broadly similar observations.
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Dec 9, 2021 14:02
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Thanks for the insight on the SNP those who got back to me, I don't engage with the forums regularly enough to keep up a dialogue but the responses are much appreciated.
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Dec 9, 2021 14:02
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Tesseraction posted:Perhaps we should expect better of journalists than blatantly cribbing Wikipedia and undergrad theses to discuss modern events. Sure, I just was kind of expecting it to be a copy paste job and then when it wasn't was a bit put out. Reveilled posted:Honestly I wasn't all that convinced. Unless there was something deeply revelatory about Owen's thesis that would have required her to have read it to make those observations, none of what he cited seemed particularly damning to me as opposed to just a case of two people writing about the same topic and making broadly similar observations. There was a reply tweet that mentioned that she called Pankhurst the "so called Spirit of Petrograd" when actually its just a thing she said once, so she does seem to have not really understood what she was writing fully, but that doesn't particularly have anything to do with Jones, who obviously did. NotJustANumber99 fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Dec 9, 2021 |
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Dec 9, 2021 14:03
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Tesseraction posted:Perhaps we should expect better of journalists than blatantly cribbing Wikipedia and undergrad theses to discuss modern events. I'd rather they copied Wikipedia word for word than write down the poo poo that's in their brains to be fair.
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Dec 9, 2021 14:06
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Borrovan posted:Just gonna set out my difficulties with the "let Labour die" argument - as I understand it, it's: Ok but i think the issue here is labour is already dead from a leftist perspective You might as well say you should stick with the tories in order to influence them left In a way the seismic shift did happen: the left of the UK representation was wiped out. It’s just most people didn’t seem to notice. I don’t think the average left wing but politically disengaged voter actually knows how much labour hates them. That they are to be seen as anti-semitic and bigoted by their very leftism. The shift happened but everyone is pretending it didn’t.
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Dec 9, 2021 14:09
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Borrovan posted:I'm not voting for them though lmao. Same, they can get in the sea. I think people who want to supplant or reform Labour should focus on starting something new that is loud and attractive. Take a leaf out of UKIPs book who managed it very successfully. NIP have done it to an extent, even the SNP in some ways, but overall too much nationalism. Call it something bland and all-encompassing like "Future", make the lead demands outrageous and take some voters. Once you're going the bandwagon runs itself.
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Dec 9, 2021 14:13
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Butternubs posted:I'd rather they copied Wikipedia word for word than write down the poo poo that's in their brains to be fair. Oh absolutely, but that's assuming good faith reporting and not agenda-setting malicious bullshit. NotJustANumber99 posted:Sure, I just was kind of expecting it to be a copy paste job and then when it wasn't was a bit put out. Flipping words around is classic "I copied someone else's work" and trips plagiarism-detecting software.
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Dec 9, 2021 14:13
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Hey comrades everyone loves RP group drama right? Got a situation I could use some validation on: Just got a group email from a friend, saying that a very old friend of his (who used to play with us, & then subsequently got into posting a bunch of nazi poo poo on Facebook) is dying or something, misses roleplaying, & would like to join us again. I said he can gently caress right off & there's no way I'm sitting round a table with a loving nazi. Funny thing is the guy who emailed is married to a first gen non white immigrant & finds the nazi poo poo more upsetting than anyone, but he's also got serious anxiety issues & hates conflict & they go way back so ugh whatever I guess. Also seems a bit off since nazi guy (before anyone had ever heard any nazi poo poo from him) is the one who introduced me to most of the group a decade back. But, nonetheless, gently caress that, I'm not doing it. I did right, right?
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Dec 9, 2021 14:16
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59592187 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc 
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Dec 9, 2021 14:17
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Yup. Table with 9 people and 1 Nazi is a table with 10 Nazis.
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Dec 9, 2021 14:17
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Borrovan posted:Just gonna set out my difficulties with the "let Labour die" argument - as I understand it, it's: Yeah I agree pretty much, don't want to be the mensheviks indignantly jumping ship on principle while their opponents shrug and take over the reigns
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Dec 9, 2021 14:18
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Yup. Table with 9 people and 1 Nazi is a table with 10 Nazis. I didn't even know Nazi was a player class in D&D?
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Dec 9, 2021 14:19
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Borrovan posted:Hey comrades everyone loves RP group drama right? Got a situation I could use some validation on: No D&D is better than Bad D&D, and D&D with nazis is, You don't owe your time to this guy.
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Dec 9, 2021 14:19
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Borrovan posted:Hey comrades everyone loves RP group drama right? Got a situation I could use some validation on: I suppose it depends whether they're still a nazi or have repented. Also if you just go no thanks and miss those meetings, or make a fuss and say they shouldn't be happening at all.
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Dec 9, 2021 14:20
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I'd say attend only if it's an intervention to tell him that being a nazi is terrible and he needs to recant everything before it's too late, and even then only if you want to intervene. I don't think a reasonable person would blame you for not going.
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Dec 9, 2021 14:21
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Borrovan posted:Hey comrades everyone loves RP group drama right? Got a situation I could use some validation on:
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Dec 9, 2021 14:25
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Tijuana Bibliophile posted:why d'you keep outsourcing these things jesus NotJustANumber99 posted:She'd changed all the words around like I would do, what are the rules on this? Crappy little articles don't have bibliographies. She wrote it in 2008, when he was a nobody fresh out of uni so its a bit lol I guess now, although I suppose she wasn't much older. Not citing the people who's ideas you're nicking is lovely practice. Failed Imagineer posted:I didn't even know Nazi was a player class in D&D? 
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Dec 9, 2021 14:35
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Bobby Deluxe posted:You're talking about sending a message to a party that is stood there with it's fingers in its ears I see your point on this and also the rest of your post (genuinely, it's well-argued) but also I'm not going to vote for a party that is literally trying to outflank the Tories from the right on a lot of issues, and that tolerates open transphobia, and that doesn't give a poo poo about rampant Islamophobia, and that supports Israel, and that is willing to let migrants drown to court the gammon vote, and [1001 other issues with the awful fuckers]. BTW thread, if you thought I was being harsh on Monbiot the other day: https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1468892008022433797?s=20 He's still loving on about the problem with The Left. And: https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1468892680415494144?s=20 Lol, he's morphed into loving Oz Katerji, calling everybody he doesn't like an Assadist. WhatEvil fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Dec 9, 2021 |
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Dec 9, 2021 14:44
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Borrovan posted:Just gonna set out my difficulties with the "let Labour die" argument - as I understand it, it's: I agree with this mostly, but I quit the party and can still vote for a new leader through my union. At least I'm not giving any money to shitlabor this way, but I can't vote at CLP meetings which.. oh no? Borrovan posted:Hey comrades everyone loves RP group drama right? Got a situation I could use some validation on: 100%. gently caress nazis. If he wants to repent he needs to come to you.
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Dec 9, 2021 14:55
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Cheers all, I already knew the answer but felt a bit off (although there was no way I was doing otherwise), knew I could count on you lot  NotJustANumber99 posted:Also if you just go no thanks and miss those meetings, or make a fuss and say they shouldn't be happening at all. Convex posted:I'd say attend only if it's an intervention to tell him that being a nazi is terrible and he needs to recant everything before it's too late lmao this was my exact emotional reaction on getting the email
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Dec 9, 2021 14:57
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I see that Monbiot has decided to heap unequivocal praise upon Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud in this round of If You Don't Support My Guy You Love The Other Guy, the game for 1-5 disingenuous dickheads.
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Dec 9, 2021 15:01
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