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WhatEvil posted:I see your point on this and also the rest of your post (genuinely, it's well-argued) but also I'm not going to vote for a party that is literally trying to outflank the Tories from the right on a lot of issues, and that tolerates open transphobia, and that doesn't give a poo poo about rampant Islamophobia, and that supports Israel, and that is willing to let migrants drown to court the gammon vote, and [1001 other issues with the awful fuckers]. | We need to spend time to consider the nuance of people's stances | Everyone disagrees with me is an Assadist
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Dec 9, 2021 15:01
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WhatEvil posted:I see your point on this and also the rest of your post (genuinely, it's well-argued) but also I'm not going to vote for a party that is literally trying to outflank the Tories from the right on a lot of issues, and that tolerates open transphobia, and that doesn't give a poo poo about rampant Islamophobia, and that supports Israel, and that is willing to let migrants drown to court the gammon vote, and [1001 other issues with the awful fuckers]. Like, he's not wrong. There absolutely is a segment of the left, who are popularly called Tankies, who believe all that poo poo. The thing is, it's 8 people & they aren't really worth talking about. Borrovan posted:Just gonna set out my difficulties with the "let Labour die" argument - as I understand it, it's: OK, let's take the counterpoint in equally reductive terms Step one: Stay in a Labour Party that hates socialists. Step two: The Labour Right stay in charge & learn nothing because why would they? Step three: Somehow this equals a socialist government? The right have already won. They won when the Labour membership that backed Corbyn gave up in 2021 & elected a liberal as leader. Well, an economic liberal, certainly not a civil libertarian. At this point I just want to see the Labour Party burn for the sheer schadenfreude of it. I hate them. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Dec 9, 2021 |
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Dec 9, 2021 15:16
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I mean he is right on the point that the left's greatest enemy is the left, and there are a lot of weirdoes online who will excommunicate each other based on their respective takes on the USSR's 1928 agricultural policy, which probably seems a far bigger issue than it is if you live on Twitter
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Dec 9, 2021 15:17
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Most leftist discourse is that simpsons meme of Groundskeeper Willie talking about the scots being natural enemies with etc etc
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Dec 9, 2021 15:22
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Even the biggest orthodox ML tank commander I know was basically in the "Assad is like Saddam, probably not a great guy but what are you going to do, regime change him? Support the turbo-Islamists? The Western backed insurgents? That all worked well lol" which sure there's bits you can strongly disagree with in that but equivocating it to the handful of "Assad is the Lion of Syria and the only true light of Ba'ath Arab Liberation" weirdoes is really stupid and can only come from spending too much time online and not actually talking to people.
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Dec 9, 2021 15:25
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This is possibly the niche online equivalent of that Onion "Marilyn Manson just going door to door to shock people" story, but the bloke that writes Scarfolk seems to be very specifically targeting his terrifying dystopian vision: https://twitter.com/richard_littler/status/1468901818398879748
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Dec 9, 2021 15:28
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VideoGames posted:Yeah, 2019 and (and to a lesser extent 2017) the way the country's media and Labour MPs treated the party broke me a little. I will not vote for Labour again unless there is serious change. Labour have gone back on every pledge from Starmer's election and are continuing to go rightwards. This party does not represent me. Maybe they would not go as far right as the tories but I have not one ounce of trust that the people in charge who wrecked everything and continue to remain will not get worse. I do not wish to endorse that with my vote. A while back but +1
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Dec 9, 2021 15:28
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goddamnedtwisto posted:This is possibly the niche online equivalent of that Onion "Marilyn Manson just going door to door to shock people" story, but the bloke that writes Scarfolk seems to be very specifically targeting his terrifying dystopian vision: I was reading the new Kim Stanley Robinson novel and there's detailed descriptions of how one of the main characters loves orange slices dipped in chocolate, and I thought of this thread and chuckled sensibly
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Dec 9, 2021 15:33
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Can confirm that orange flavoured Yorkie bars are good.
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Dec 9, 2021 15:35
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forkboy84 posted:OK, let's take the counterpoint in equally reductive terms e: also, like, the SCG has as many MPs as literally every party in Parliament apart from the top 3 put together, including all independents. So, "Labour Party that hates socialists" is a bit of an overstatement, that's mainly just the leadership. Not to mention the very many good eggs left in the membership. Borrovan fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Dec 9, 2021 |
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Dec 9, 2021 15:43
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therattle posted:. I can't see that happening, the guy if teflon and realistically the only real danger to him is his own party. Now a few of them are pretty hacked off on the backbenches but there doesn't seem to be any political heavy weights wading in against him so no real challenge to his authority.
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Dec 9, 2021 15:57
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Labour could have still earned my vote after I quit the party. They didnt. Actually they did the exact opposite. gently caress em.
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Dec 9, 2021 16:01
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Borrovan posted:The Labour right are currently killing the party fighting a war against the Labour left, so no, your analysis breaks down right after step 1. My whole argument (well, the first part) is that all the lefties leaving does not kill the Labour Party, it is lefties staying in that is doing that. Yes, if the SCG MPs left the Labour Party they'd be the 4th largest party in the country instantly, with potential financial support from a few of the largest unions, & hundreds of thousands of people who joined Labour in 2015 to vote for an SCG member as leader. Unfortunately they aren't going to do that because of some misplaced loyalty to a party thats MPs, staff & pretty much anyone else outwith the membership hates them. If I lived in one of the 35 constituencies that had an SCG MP, I'd probably vote for them. But like the overwhelming majority in this country I don't. Like, the best argument for Labour is inertia? And frankly schadenfreude beats inertia.
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Dec 9, 2021 16:14
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Borrovan posted:Hey comrades everyone loves RP group drama right? Got a situation I could use some validation on: You did indeed. gently caress that dying fascist, if he misses games so much maybe he shouldn’t have become a hateful monster.
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Dec 9, 2021 16:17
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DesperateDan posted:Labour could have still earned my vote after I quit the party. Wow you don't like Kenny labours policies! I mean we got rid of Corbyn what else could you possibly want?????
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Dec 9, 2021 16:20
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on one hand dying sucks and you have to be careful not to be cruel but on the other that sounds awkward as heck and i don't know just how bad the nazi stuff got but i'm going to assume from the reaction that it was pretty vile so yeah, don't do anything you're not comfortable doing.
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Dec 9, 2021 16:23
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Borrovan posted:The Labour right are currently killing the party fighting a war against the Labour left, so no, your analysis breaks down right after step 1. My whole argument (well, the first part) is that all the lefties leaving does not kill the Labour Party, it is lefties staying in that is doing that. IMHO the Labour party only has a long-term future is if it can meaningfully improve people's lives. If it can expel the left and regain power but change absolutely nothing, it'll just be out again at the next election - look at the current state of Democratic party, elected on a platform of 'at least we're not the other guy' and now on track for a huge loss next year that will stop them doing anything at all before they lose the presidency to Trump again in three years time. Leftism are the only thing that can save Labour by pushing things that actually help people rather than just catering to prejudices, except that the party apparatus is now rigged to completely exclude anyone to the left of David Cameron
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Dec 9, 2021 16:23
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forkboy84 posted:Yes, if the SCG MPs left the Labour Party they'd be the 4th largest party in the country instantly, with potential financial support from a few of the largest unions, & hundreds of thousands of people who joined Labour in 2015 to vote for an SCG member as leader. Unfortunately they aren't going to do that because of some misplaced loyalty to a party thats MPs, staff & pretty much anyone else outwith the membership hates them. I can completely understand why people want to stay and fight. They feel (with some justification) that Labour belongs to them far more than it does to the briefcase wankers. Like Michael Bolton in Office Space - "Why should we leave? They're the ones that suck". It's not for me though, and even though I have an SCG MP (Apsana Begum) I'm not 100% sure I can turn out even to vote for her just because there's no way of marking my vote "in spite of, not because". If it came to it I'm not 100% sure at this point I could turn out to campaign for her in an alternative universe where the national party were good, just because it would involve interacting with the toxic shitbags of my CLP who have completely abandoned her. I just wish we could somehow slip a history of the last 6 years back in time to 2015 Corbyn and Big John and tell them that they might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb and should have actually gone full Stalinist on the right. They'd have probably still lost in 2019 - I genuinely don't think there was a path to victory for them even without the dead weight of the Blairfuckers dragging them down in that particular election - but at least that loss would have been a sacrifice for a greater good rather than just a punchline. (Incidentally that lovely local party is why I'd have actually had to leave before the next locals anyway, because there's no loving way I'm voting for any of that nest of loving vipers) goddamnedtwisto fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Dec 9, 2021 |
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Dec 9, 2021 16:28
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Bobby Deluxe posted:If you're using someone else's ideas generally you credit them. It'd be the easiest thing in the world to say "As a recent academic piece put it "blah blah blah." I don't think she took any of his ideas. Later in the article she directly quotes and attributes ideas to some other professor dude. The stuff that was the same as Jones's were background facts.
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Dec 9, 2021 16:48
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I can completely understand why people want to stay and fight. They feel (with some justification) that Labour belongs to them far more than it does to the briefcase wankers. Like Michael Bolton in Office Space - "Why should we leave? They're the ones that suck". It's not for me though, and even though I have an SCG MP (Apsana Begum) I'm not 100% sure I can turn out even to vote for her just because there's no way of marking my vote "in spite of, not because". If it came to it I'm not 100% sure at this point I could turn out to campaign for her in an alternative universe where the national party were good, just because it would involve interacting with the toxic shitbags of my CLP who have completely abandoned her. You should absolutely vote the person if your MP is SCG. If the Labour right get decimated while all the SCG hold on, it will send a stronger message even than complete electoral collapse: we want the left, we don't want the right. It will also leave the SCG stronger within the party and potentially in a position to push back.
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Dec 9, 2021 16:49
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goddamnedtwisto posted:(Incidentally that lovely local party is why I'd have actually had to leave before the next locals anyway, because there's no loving way I'm voting for any of that nest of loving vipers) It's a moral thing in a similar vein for me. I just can't be part of or vote for an organisation that does things like suppress reports into institutional racism because it's convenient for the leadership, or for that matter who's leader will just lie to your face to scrounge a few votes. Fair play to people who want to stay and fight but I can't have my name associated with it.
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Dec 9, 2021 16:51
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Yeah I can see the argument of voting if your local MP is SCG.
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Dec 9, 2021 17:02
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Comrade Fakename posted:lol 
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Dec 9, 2021 17:11
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https://twitter.com/GNev2/status/1468838487499673603?t=FIyPCyQ4dbNW5L5t_E551A&s=19 Add this guy to the list of people doing more opposition than the actual opposition.
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Dec 9, 2021 17:40
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I think that if Labour, even in its current form, won a general things would be slightly better - however I don't think that is really enough for me to vote for them unconditionally - a Starmer gov would be merely less bad. So I probably wouldn't vote for them unless I felt I had a good MP. That said as well - I don't think the current ideas of burning the party to the ground/having the SCG defect would really help either - I can't see anything other than a slightly redder libdems replacing labour if it collapses, and I'm extremely sceptical of "let's do CUKTIG, but left wing and it'll work this time because ???".
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Dec 9, 2021 17:41
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I'm not going to vote for a party just because it's supposed to be left-wing. That seems like a deluded and self-defeating strategy. The fact is that no major party represents left-wing values at this point, and voting for Labour just because it's the lesser evil or because it *should* be left-wing or *used* to be is just wishful thinking and avoiding the fact that the path to a better government is going to be much more difficult than that.
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Dec 9, 2021 17:56
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stev posted:https://twitter.com/GNev2/status/1468838487499673603?t=FIyPCyQ4dbNW5L5t_E551A&s=19 I welcome the Gary Nevolution.
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Dec 9, 2021 18:12
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Apraxin posted:am i misreading that, or on top of everything else did she misunderstand the original quote and think that Sylvia Pankhurst's nickname was 'The Spirit of Petrograd'? “A spectre is haunting Europe— Sylvia Pankhurst" E: lol? https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1468935279738331146?t=-17rVod1BvIuvGdpmdTPvA&s=19 Failed Imagineer fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Dec 9, 2021 |
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Dec 9, 2021 18:16
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Failed Imagineer posted:https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1468935279738331146?t=-17rVod1BvIuvGdpmdTPvA&s=19 Is this a parody account edit: gently caress me, it isn't
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Dec 9, 2021 18:37
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Disproportionation posted:I think that if Labour, even in its current form, won a general things would be slightly better - however I don't think that is really enough for me to vote for them unconditionally - a Starmer gov would be merely less bad. So I probably wouldn't vote for them unless I felt I had a good MP. For ??? insert "we have at least one principle between us".
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Dec 9, 2021 18:37
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do people watching musicals join in?
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Dec 9, 2021 18:45
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Depends on the musical.
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Dec 9, 2021 18:50
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That'd get you an elbow in the ribs at just about anything except Mamma Mia But it's poo poo advice anyway. Theatre performers got nothing throughout the lockdown despite shows being mandated closed. You might agree or disagree if they should've got relief money. But they're opening now, in the pandemic, because financially they have to if they're going to continue. This means people whose livelihood depends on taking exceptionally good care of their breathing are performing in a room of 1000, 2000 people all breathing the same air, pointed their way. A lot of them are begging audiences to stay masked throughout. Absolutely poo poo for the government to be saying "oh yeah, take your masks off and join in", and I'm betting they talked to nobody in the theatre business
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Dec 9, 2021 19:00
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I can completely understand why people want to stay and fight. They feel (with some justification) that Labour belongs to them far more than it does to the briefcase wankers. Like Michael Bolton in Office Space - "Why should we leave? They're the ones that suck". It's not for me though, and even though I have an SCG MP (Apsana Begum) I'm not 100% sure I can turn out even to vote for her just because there's no way of marking my vote "in spite of, not because". If it came to it I'm not 100% sure at this point I could turn out to campaign for her in an alternative universe where the national party were good, just because it would involve interacting with the toxic shitbags of my CLP who have completely abandoned her. I genuinely believe Labour would have won in 2019 if it hadn't completely shat the bed on its Brexit strategy. That was the issue of the moment, and they literally couldn't have hosed it up worse. Some of the blame obviously goes to the FBPE brigade for pushing them to argue for a second referendum, but Corbyn et al should rightly be criticised for capitulating to it, and even before that their position was nonsensical and contradictory where it wasn't incomprehensible. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Dec 9, 2021 |
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Dec 9, 2021 19:12
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I can completely understand why people want to stay and fight. They feel (with some justification) that Labour belongs to them far more than it does to the briefcase wankers. Like Michael Bolton in Office Space - "Why should we leave? They're the ones that suck". It's not for me though, and even though I have an SCG MP (Apsana Begum) I'm not 100% sure I can turn out even to vote for her just because there's no way of marking my vote "in spite of, not because". If it came to it I'm not 100% sure at this point I could turn out to campaign for her in an alternative universe where the national party were good, just because it would involve interacting with the toxic shitbags of my CLP who have completely abandoned her. Is constituency work worth considering? Don't know about Begum in particular, but if an MP is providing great surgery service helping lots of people navigate hell-island bureaucracy, the replacement of that MP with someone useless would be detrimental to people in the constituency.
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Dec 9, 2021 19:13
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ThomasPaine posted:I genuinely believe Labour would have won in 2019 if it hadn't completely shat the bed on its Brexit strategy.
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Dec 9, 2021 19:16
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ThomasPaine posted:I genuinely believe Labour would have won in 2019 if it hadn't completely shat the bed on its Brexit strategy. That was the issue of the moment, and they literally couldn't have hosed it up worse. Some of the blame obviously goes to the FBPE brigade for pushing them to argue for a second referendum, but Corbyn et al should rightly be criticised for capitulating to it, and even before that their position was nonsensical and contradictory where it wasn't incomprehensible.
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Dec 9, 2021 19:28
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UK is pretty much hosed until proportional representation is implemented, sooo.......... good luck with that.
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Dec 9, 2021 19:49
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Convex posted:Is this a parody account It's factual reporting of a parody country
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Dec 9, 2021 20:18
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Guavanaut posted:Depends on the musical. does anyone have a link to that anti-mask protest vid that someone dubbed over with "we're a bunch of cunts" please
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Dec 9, 2021 20:43
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