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Grimwall posted:Well, I guess that's how it feels to end a decade long series. I remember only Malazan coming close in my personal experience and that series got steadily lost in the author's pretensions. Next, GoT? Heh. I literally just started the book; however I refuse to believe the authors left so many dangling and unresolved plot points as the Mazalan series did.
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Dec 6, 2021 16:30
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Steven Strait is too wholesome for me to say negative things about.
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Dec 6, 2021 18:37
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He's definitely got the best answer to "what was Holden's girlfriend going to tell him right as the Canterbury exploded?" It was "I've been hooking up with Shed on the side, you should get tested ASAP"
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Dec 6, 2021 19:03
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I like Holden as a character; he’s like a chaotic good version of a Paladin. Don’t hate the TV adaptation of him although I imagined someone a bit more conventional-good-looking than model-good-looking. Last words were perfectly in character.
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Dec 7, 2021 05:51
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Enjoyed how they ended it. Didn’t need a big crazy twist that made no sense - I just wanted it wrapped up in a way that followed, and to see where the characters ended up. Only disappointment is that Drummer was apparently just deleted from existence.
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Dec 7, 2021 12:11
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Beefeater1980 posted:I like Holden as a character; he’s like a chaotic good version of a Paladin. Don’t hate the TV adaptation of him although I imagined someone a bit more conventional-good-looking than model-good-looking. I like the character as well, though sometimes I struggle with the fact that it Holden were a real person, he’d be a homeless man, in prison, or otherwise a crushed and broken human far before the first Expanse novel. I suppose this can be said of most characters in novels such as these.
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Dec 7, 2021 15:21
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Jakabite posted:Enjoyed how they ended it. Didn’t need a big crazy twist that made no sense - I just wanted it wrapped up in a way that followed, and to see where the characters ended up. Only disappointment is that Drummer was apparently just deleted from existence. Drummer was never as big of a character in the books as she was in the show, thanks to Drummer being combined with several other characters, including Michio Pa. I was bummed Naomi never got any resolution with Filip who just walked into the sunset at the end of the 6th book. But yeah, nothing super crazy happened in the ending. It felt like they didn't have enough story to actually warrant a full 9th book, so they were just treading water a lot of the time. I listened to the audiobook, and noticed they repeated phrases a lot, especially character descriptions that had already been described pages earlier. The most satisfying part was the epilogue. The authors have said that they have no intention beyond the final novella of returning to this universe, but I would love to learn about the collapse in the Sol system and the gradual rebuilding, and the establishment of whatever entity the 30 worlds are made up of.
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Dec 7, 2021 15:24
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Nihonniboku posted:But yeah, nothing super crazy happened in the ending. It felt like they didn't have enough story to actually warrant a full 9th book, so they were just treading water a lot of the time. I listened to the audiobook, and noticed they repeated phrases a lot, especially character descriptions that had already been described pages earlier. There was a bizarre style where often the first pages of one chapter were directly retelling the last pages of the previous chapter, from a different character's perspective. It's bizarre because I don't think they've ever really done that before, and they were doing it all over the place here. quote:I would love to learn about the collapse in the Sol system and the gradual rebuilding, and the establishment of whatever entity the 30 worlds are made up of. Eh, given their interview response on the last page, they haven't really given it much thought, and this would get into being like a Silmarillion but in space kind of thing, rather than a novel.
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Dec 7, 2021 20:07
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Nail Rat posted:There was a bizarre style where often the first pages of one chapter were directly retelling the last pages of the previous chapter, from a different character's perspective. It's bizarre because I don't think they've ever really done that before, and they were doing it all over the place here. Yeah, it seemed almost lazy, which is surprising, because wasn't this book delayed quite a bit? Or was that the last one?
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Dec 7, 2021 20:26
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A journalist who read this whole book asked the authors how they sleep at night and their response was "On top of a pile of money, with many beautiful protomolecules."
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Dec 8, 2021 08:24
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Well that was exceptionally pedestrian. He fed the finished novel into the recycler.
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Dec 8, 2021 18:24
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Like.... wtf even was Tanaka? OK, you have OMEGA CLEARANCE, because otherwise you might have to actually overcome obstacles instead of just being a plot point and another set of POV chapters. Your boss will only pop into to give you a C- grade every time you gently caress up and to conveniently dispense your next mission. She was like some kind of bad video game protagonist or character. Speaking of:  And you're REAL MAD about everything because ??????? And you have a deep dark secret which is never revealed? Or was it just that she was banging a subordinate in the beginning? I read through this kinda fast, but I got the vibe that she had some kind of terrible thing she was keeping secret from everyone which is why she was panicky when her AT field started disintegrating. Also, we're kinda denied what could have been a cool power-armor showdown between Bobbie and Tanaka :\ I am mostly OK with sci-fi being derivative and incestuous, it's just the nature of most genre fiction, but this was a straight up lift from a ton of other sources, the previously mentioned Mass Effect and NGE being the biggest examples. I mean the trope of the antagonist loving off to parts unknown at the beginning only to be revealed at the end as really more of an object than a character was really annoying. Duarte was kinda interesting and had a couple of books of established character. Tanaka did not. But Holden et al chasing Duarte across space as he unlocked his master plan while being compromised by a dark and mysterious galactic entity would have made the ME theft waaaayyyyy too on the nose. Also, is Duarte's plan kinda vague and weird? Why does it have to be everyone in his Human Instrumentality Project? Doesn't Holden demonstrate some ability to resist the weird other universe entities with only a portion? Or do we assume Duarte's plan was being fed to him and he was completely compromised by the station? A lot of other items seem like they have more to explain or more potential than is ever realized. Examples being: -What happens to ships that pass between gates and vanish? Do they go to the other universe? Are they simply disintegrated? That's not very interesting. - Was going dutchman the same thing? Why was mass/velocity the trigger? What did crossing the threshold for those actually change??? - Why is the Ardo crystal so gigantic? It doesn't seem to contain much. Why is it the only discovered example of this kind of technology? - The repair drones and their abilities seem to be the most impressive technology described that doesn't affect universal constants. What was their original purpose? Why are no other examples of "repaired" life forms ever experienced, even on Laconia? - Why did the antimatter attack through the Tecoma gate somehow allow the "Ringwraiths" to wreck the slow zone so thoroughly, but then they retreat? - Was it ever explained why humans who were Protomolecule infected become aggressive? I know it's a giant macguffin, but the Protomolecule's effect on various things doesn't necessarily point toward any kind of consistent purpose. Was fine, I guess. It was probably foolish to expect the series to transcend itself and it's perfectly readable and satisfactory(if relatively unimaginative and derivative) previous volumes for its conclusion.
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Dec 8, 2021 18:50
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To answer one of your questions that you asked in 3 or 4 different ways, this was explained in the books. As I understand it, essentially to work, the ring gates steal energy from the other universe, which is where the old gods or whatever reside. If you do just a little bit at a time, like one ship at a time, they either don't really notice, or it's hard to pinpoint the origin of this transgression. When you use a lot of this energy at once, like sending multiple ships through the ring gates at once, then it's much easier for the old gods in the other universe to pinpoint where you are, and they reach out somehow, and wipe you out of existence. Does that mean disintegration? Seems so, it doesn't sound like they're being transported to the other universe. Maybe they're just trying to steal their energy back? Anyway, apparently they can't actually see what's happening in our universe, so they don't really know what's causing it, and they'll just reach out in that spot until it appears to have stopped, and then they'll go away back to minding their own business. Humans are fundamentally lazy and selfish though, and even with Naomi's rules enforced by Laconia, there was no way to guarantee that someone wouldn't do something else to gently caress up again and get the attention of the old gods, and continue to even wipe out entire systems and not just individual ships. The dudes who created the protomolecule handled this by deciding to shut down the ring gates and hoping they could fix it eventually, but they died out instead and humanity hijacked the ring gates for themselves. Knowing this, Holden made the decision to not just shut the ring gates down, but to break them permanently, giving humanity 1000+ chances for survival. Duarte's plan was to essentially go to war with the old gods with all of humanity jointed as a hive mind, meaning if his plan failed, all of humanity would be dead.
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Dec 8, 2021 19:30
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Yeah the whole repeating the end of the last chapter thing got old fast. I know Drummer wasn’t a huge character in the books but she definitely warranted some sort of resolution beyond ‘went to Laconia and was never seen again’
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Dec 8, 2021 20:52
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AlternateAccount posted:Well that was exceptionally pedestrian. He fed the finished novel into the recycler. 
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Dec 8, 2021 21:20
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I feel like I remember that the speed/mass transit window for safety was imprecise. Wasn’t there an example where 3 ships went through in rapid sequence and only the middle one vanished? Hard to remember, I burned through these final books pretty fast. I don’t know, I guess it had to be more predictable for Duarte to try his nonsense, so it may just vary with plot requirements. Speaking of, is it ever explained why his antimatter bomb plan affects him the way it does? It actually ends up making him more powerful, but the odd catatonia and such were odd and interesting, but left dangling a bit. I think the whole energy theft causing some kind of negative effect/response from the ring entities and never being expanded past that makes for a boring big enemy instead of something cosmically inscrutable. Not saying we need to go all the way to having them popup and lay it all out like Harbinger on Virmire, but “they don’t like when you do that” is meh. I guess if Duarte hadn’t nuked them and they’d just managed the traffic properly, the situation could have maintained balance fairly indefinitely?
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Dec 9, 2021 01:23
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I think a sort of stalemate with the gods of the lower depths might have been possible, but once someone explained it to Holden in terms of the gate network stealing energy from another place, it was only going to end one way. The builders should have left records of their legitimate salvage claim on that energy. Then Holden would have been more interested in keeping the gates running.
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Dec 9, 2021 01:35
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I feel like there was an idea that this last novel would've been, like, Holden and co. grappling with the inevitability of the goth 'victory' and finding some meaning before the end. But then it swerves away from that and it leaves the whole first half of the novel feeling weird and irrelevant. AlternateAccount posted:Speaking of, is it ever explained why his antimatter bomb plan affects him the way it does? It actually ends up making him more powerful, but the odd catatonia and such were odd and interesting, but left dangling a bit. Wasn't that just the aliens reaching out and basically telling him to shut the gently caress up? Otherwise, yeah, Tanaka sucks. "Boy, I wish we'd kept Bobbie around." She was just a mess from top to bottom -- incompetent and angry. And, really, when you begin your novel on a hardcore military officer is tasked to go track down her god-emperor spending one chapter on that and then swerving into chasing his daughter to get to him felt like a significant issue in the core backbone of the novel.
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Dec 9, 2021 02:53
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AlternateAccount posted:Well that was exceptionally pedestrian. He fed the finished novel into the recycler. You've summed it up better in one short sentence than pages of posts could do. It wasn't a bad ending, I didn't recoil from it. It wasn't a good ending, and I'm not going to celebrate it. It was just an ending. Also way more geriatric sex than probably any piece of fiction I've ever read in my life. That's fine! Old people are sexual beings too!
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Dec 9, 2021 03:27
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Zorak of Michigan posted:I think a sort of stalemate with the gods of the lower depths might have been possible, but once someone explained it to Holden in terms of the gate network stealing energy from another place, it was only going to end one way. The builders should have left records of their legitimate salvage claim on that energy. Then Holden would have been more interested in keeping the gates running. Just finished the book. I think this would have been possible earlier, but the Goths had been ramping up attacks on their own against humans since the anti-matter attack. Duarte was able to temporarily stop them from doing that from inside the station. Once he's out of the picture destroying the ring station is the only way to stop it. I enjoyed it, but I also haven't played ME3 and don't watch anime. pthighs fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Dec 9, 2021 |
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Dec 9, 2021 06:02
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I liked it, but wasn't blown away. I thought Tanaka was fine if kind of one-note, but I cannot emphasize enough just how loving little I care about Alex's new grandson. AlternateAccount posted:A lot of other items seem like they have more to explain or more potential than is ever realized. Examples being: It didn't, but their mild reaction to that triggered the booby trap the builders left behind: a primed supernova pointed at a ring gate. The burst from that bounced off the station and went through every other gate, which is apparently the metaphysical equivalent of kicking the dark gods in the balls. Enraged, they wiped out everything in the slow zone because they seem to target wherever the ball-kicking came from. It's not really clear that they "retreated", they just switched to trying to wipe out human consciousness. quote:- Was it ever explained why humans who were Protomolecule infected become aggressive? I know it's a giant macguffin, but the Protomolecule's effect on various things doesn't necessarily point toward any kind of consistent purpose. [/spoiler] The protomolecule is a tool that can be programmed to do basically anything. The volume of it that was sent to Sol was programmed to coopt as much organic life as possible as fast as possible in order to construct a ring gate. It tried to do this by using infected humans as a platform to spread. AlternateAccount posted:Speaking of, is it ever explained why his antimatter bomb plan affects him the way it does? It actually ends up making him more powerful, but the odd catatonia and such were odd and interesting, but left dangling a bit. The dark gods responded to the bomb with the form of attack they used to wipe out the protomolecule builders, because it worked on them. Humans were resistant to this attack because unlike the builders, they had physical brains that basically just crashed and rebooted instead of getting erased entirely. Duarte at that point was something between a human and a builder, so the attack didn't kill him but did turn him into a drooling idiot for a year.
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Dec 9, 2021 06:28
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Some good responses. Thanks.
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Dec 9, 2021 07:13
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Also way more geriatric sex than probably any piece of fiction I've ever read in my life. Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy probably outdoes it on that front. Anyway, yeah, the Duarte plot did strike me as basically "he installed himself in the Great Machine to do Human Instrumentality." [Kit stuff] When they introduced the idea that the group consciousness effects were induced by being the subject of affected people's awareness, it sounded to me like they were setting the stage for Alex to be more affected than the rest of the crew, but lol nope [Stuff near the end] The way Miller was needling Holden about the hypocrisy of unilaterally destroying the gates, I really expected Holden to do one last mind meld to get humanity to agree to and assist with destroying the gate network. Literally one last shot at giving everybody all the information and trusting them to do the right thing. Edit: formatting Toast Museum fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Dec 9, 2021 |
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Dec 9, 2021 09:10
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Zorak of Michigan posted:The builders should have left records of their legitimate salvage claim on that energy. Then Holden would have been more interested in keeping the gates running.
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Dec 9, 2021 14:53
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I just finished it and really enjoyed it, and thought it was a satisfying (if not necessarily mind-blowing) ending to the series. Slow start as people have been saying, but once all the plot threads start coming together it really picks up. The character endings mostly all worked (Alex kind of got short shrift, but that's par for his character throughout the series), and while the overall ending (specifically the rings being destroyed and humanity going back to being isolated) was pretty much what I've expected for a few books, there were enough surprises in how it was executed along the way that it didn't feel like it was just going through the motions. I particularly liked Holden injecting himself with protomolecule, which was both a twist at the moment but also a totally loving Holden move. One thing I particularly enjoyed and wasn't expecting is that it actually manages to give a lot of answers about the weird alien poo poo without overexplaining it or making it less weird or alien. It's been a lot of fun reading these books over the last decade. Looking forward to seeing the final short story when that comes out, and hopefully we can get an adaptation of the last three books onscreen at some point.
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Dec 9, 2021 18:51
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Toast Museum posted:[Stuff near the end] The way Miller was needling Holden about the hypocrisy of unilaterally destroying the gates, I really expected Holden to do one last mind meld to get humanity to agree to and assist with destroying the gate network. Literally one last shot at giving everybody all the information and trusting them to do the right thing. I do kinda like that idea, but there were people, tens if not hundreds of thousands of them who would be consigned to slow starvation or other death. Feels like an absolute dick move to just "democratically" choose to murder a ton of people. I know it happens, but still.
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Dec 9, 2021 19:05
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He really couldn't have done anything else. The goth-aliens were at maximum rage alert mode and had already figured out (though they didn't know it) the key to instantly killing all humans everywhere.
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Dec 9, 2021 19:26
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Lord Hydronium posted:
From everything they've built, I was expecting the builders to be very different. Their apparent indifference to entire biospheres, billion-year timetables, and willingness to genocide their own network had me expecting that they were ruthlessly logical and had the personality of graphing calculators. The reveal that they were actually whimsical drama queens that were just too removed from organic life to care much about it was nice. I think they explained the dark gods as much as was reasonable. It probably would have gotten really stupid if someone (holden/duarte/elvi) managed to talk to them or fully understand their motives and capabilities.
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Dec 9, 2021 19:39
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Finished it. I was happy with the ending honestly. Avoided GOT terribleness.
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Dec 9, 2021 22:29
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If the series had ended with Holden using his protomolecule powers to broadcast a message of hope and optimism and everything else across the 1300 human systems that would've been a perfect loop of him and the others desperately broadcasting a message to everyone in the Sol system about the malfeasance they'd uncovered right at the start of the series right after they got off the Canterbury. That would've been a perfect way to tie the series up in a bow, do some fanservice, and service the story. It's a really obvious move and I'm surprised they didn't do it. Maybe they thought it was too obvious?
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Dec 10, 2021 04:47
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:If the series had ended with Holden using his protomolecule powers to broadcast a message of hope and optimism and everything else across the 1300 human systems that would've been a perfect loop of him and the others desperately broadcasting a message to everyone in the Sol system about the malfeasance they'd uncovered right at the start of the series right after they got off the Canterbury. That would've been a perfect way to tie the series up in a bow, do some fanservice, and service the story. It's a really obvious move and I'm surprised they didn't do it. Maybe they thought it was too obvious? maybe they thought that the series IS fiction but it still needs at least a dose of reality in it
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Dec 10, 2021 06:06
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I believe the point is that Holden has matured, and the naive man that originally set-off a system-wide war with his poorly thought out broadcasts realized that sometimes life is making lovely choices without all the information, and so he...just did it. It was a tough call, but I don't think he has a lot of time to think about it before making it.
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Dec 10, 2021 08:53
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I like the idea of the entire ring station setup, and even protomolecule tech, being very safe (maybe a few occasional missing ships during ring transits, but nothing too drastic), but humanity just kept loving things up and experimenting and blowing stuff up until the whole situation became something that threatened the survival of the entire species, and the only fix was to blow it all up so humans couldn't do stupid stuff with it anymore. That first bit of humans stumbling into the ring station area really set the tone for how much they were gonna keep screwing around with a situation that was so incredibly far above what they could handle.
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Dec 10, 2021 09:34
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Just finished Leviathan's Fall. The authors did this annoying thing to build tension where they'd write ¾ of a scene in one character's perspective and then overlap half of it in the next so the plot slowed down to a crawl. At several points as it was wrapping up I audibly groaned because I was like ugh get to it already. It wasn't a Benioff and Weiss tier ending at least.
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Dec 10, 2021 18:38
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I am a little over half way through with the book and there is some very interesting stuff about the philosophy of mind, and for lack of a better way to say this, philosophy of history (or Spirit in Hegelian terms in this book—and I am pleasantly surprised. Maybe it’s just my educational background in this stuff, but I am not troubled at all by the notion of human beings becoming a ‘collective’ consciousness, or hive mind. In fact, there is a good argument to be made that, even though humans have mentally chauvinistic experience (our stream of consciousness is ‘ours’), that we are already a super organism that functionally acts like a collective consciousness. This is made possible through language itself—language already implies the social and collective nature of humans—and we examples of the output everyday. Human knowledge is collected, shared, and reflected on via the written word. Ultimately it’s what has allowed everything from science and human technology advancement to the homes and buildings we occupy. The notion of humans having a true non-chauvinistic collective consciousness is just the way we already exist with one layer removed.
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Dec 10, 2021 19:05
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NowonSA posted:but humanity just kept loving things up and experimenting and blowing stuff up until the whole situation became something that threatened the survival of the entire species This was (one of) the issues with Duarte's tit for tat plan. Everything the dark gods had done up to that point was in direct response to human action, and they seemingly did cooperate and stop eating ships when humans cooperated and regulated transit. Assuming they even understood tit for tat, they were already playing it in good faith for decades when this dick supernovaed them in the face. #teamdarkgods
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Dec 10, 2021 22:06
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I got the impression that going Dutchman wasn't even a conscious thing the dark gods were doing, just an accident of overloading the ring space system by using too much energy too quickly, and that they don't start actively going after humanity until the Laconians accidentally poke them in the eye by loving around with their fancy new weapons.
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Dec 10, 2021 23:10
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Book was good and they nailed the landing, which is more than you can say for most epic scifi/fantasy. - Loved the fake-out with Amos coming back after getting a hole blown in his chest. Laughed out loud with that one. - Tanaka was kind of an awful character, but I respect the way that they handled her in the end. Was anticipating her going off the rails for revenge in a cliché way in the station. Her giving Holden the old finger gun before dying was pretty fitting. - Thought that Holden's ending and the back and forth with Miller was a super satisfying call-back to the first book. - I wish the Rocinante would have had more of a weighty exit. Seems like she deserved something more dramatic than just to be Alex's ride home. - Amos as the immortal guardian of Earth is pretty great too. Loved him as the sociopath moral compass of the series.
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Dec 11, 2021 00:20
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ZombieLenin posted:I am a little over half way through with the book and there is some very interesting stuff about the philosophy of mind, and for lack of a better way to say this, philosophy of history (or Spirit in Hegelian terms in this book—and I am pleasantly surprised. I think the book considers that and responds to it well by insisting that the mentally chauvinistic experience of reality is what makes being part of this super-organism worthwhile to its individual members. Sure, we could survive and perhaps thrive even more as a single consciousness, but becoming one would entail giving up all that we value about our individualized existences. Paddyo posted:Book was good and they nailed the landing, which is more than you can say for most epic scifi/fantasy. Regarding Amos, the death fake-out felt kinda weak to me since he already came back from having the top of his head blown off in the last novel. I'm totally with you on Amos becoming this immortal bouncer/moral compass for Earth. The best possible ending for him. The part that made me lol with joy was Miller coming back. His presence made that last act in the Ring Station enjoyable no matter what happened
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Dec 11, 2021 16:24
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Ending stuff- I feel like this book was in direct conversation with the last two books of the Hyperion Cantos, in which humanity as a whole develops this sense of universal shared empathy / memory which allows them to become greater members of the galactic community. Perhaps this was incidental, as I seem to remember an interview with one of the Corey authors saying that the last trio of books was a love letter to Ursula K Leguin. I've admittedly not read any of her work, so I'm not sure how it stands up to that, but it definitely seemed like a counterpoint to The Rise of Endymion. Specifically, a rejection of the idea of universal connectedness as a way through the future. It's an interesting take to me personally, especially the last two years of working in healthcare. I have so often thought to myself "I wish people would just understand exactly what's going on here," and I've found myself fantasizing about universal shared experience. With that in mind I kind of found it a little bleak, especially the first half of the book, which has mirrored some of my own doom thoughts since Feb 2020. It was very relatable, but not in a fun way. Tanaka as a character seems to especially match up with the character of Rhadamanth Nemes, although I'm not sure there's much to say other than I wasn't a huge fan. She could easily have been a Bobbie Draper stand in, as I think they'd be about the same age, and it would have been an interesting (although painful) arc to have Bobbie gradually start rolling with Laconia over the last three books. It would perhaps have hit a lot harder...and her arc as written was pretty good anyway. I didn't hate it, but I guess I didn't love it either. I would have liked them to play in the space of mentally connected humans a little more than in a dire crisis situation. Could the technology be scaled smaller? Could it be a temporary thing? I personally still think it's one of the more interesting ideas in science fiction. The strength of these books imo have been in their world-building, and at their best seemed like the authors developed a set of conditions for societies and then hit the play button, and what happened next was inevitable. Highlights for me across the series are the Praxidike Meng chapters on the complexity of Ganymede, and the battle sequences in Babylon's Ashes. I'm looking forward to seeing what they write next.
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Dec 11, 2021 17:29
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