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Now you got me thinking about Catastrophic Plate Tectonics again.
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Dec 10, 2021 05:44
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Ghostlight posted:You're possibly thinking of the Gospel of John being written in the style of a contemporary biography (which did not place a lot of emphasis on historical accuracy over propaganda), but it was probably the last canonical gospel written. Mark is the oldest book in the New Testament written around 70 AD , while the Song of Deborah is the oldest part of he Bible period, written around the 12th century BC.
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Dec 10, 2021 05:53
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MonsieurChoc posted:I liked Reza Aslan's Zealot as a look at an historical Jesus. Paul Verhoeven's (yes, the director of Robocop, Showgirls and Starship Troopers) is better.
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Dec 10, 2021 07:11
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am i the only one who thinks historians and i mean like more amateurish atheist style types are super arbitrary about which parts of history to believe or disbelieve thinking specifically of the ones who claim that most east asian history is completely made up since its all court historians who have a reason to lie about everything something somehow not true about the romans or the medieval europeans
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Dec 10, 2021 07:25
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you really think someone would do that? just go into history and tell lies?
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Dec 10, 2021 07:58
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more like cruciFICTION amirite 
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Dec 10, 2021 08:50
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500excf type r posted:So the lack of historical documentation on Jesus from a time and location where we have historical documentation on people that would have been Jesus' peers is proof Jesus was real because....? we don't have historical documentation on 99.9% of the people who lived in judea at the time particularly since the province went through some pretty gnarly wars afterward jesus was extremely not important in the grand scheme of things during his life and for a very long time after his death. christianity survived where the other millenarian jewish prophet cults did not because it accepted gentiles and consciously spread itself across the empire, where it more or less blended in with the myriad of other mystery cults for a long time. it picked up steam eventually due to its radical positions on class (i.e. rich people are immoral) and a very different take on the relationship between the human and the divine (personal as opposed to transactional) yeah it's possible jesus is just made up. but like, why? why invent a prophet when you've got dozens of the guys running around. there are parts of the new testament that are allegorical or simply made up by later writers inserting their own hot takes but there's no strong reason to dismiss the core story Jazerus has issued a correction as of 09:16 on Dec 10, 2021 |
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Dec 10, 2021 09:07
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jesus also had tremendous posting energy
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Dec 10, 2021 09:23
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I once had a youth pastor ask if I thought jesus was real and I was like idk and he said "do you think george washington was real? why? cause you read about him in a book? I have another book you could read, a good book some say" and I said "yeah I read about Muhammed in my history class book too" and then I skateboarded away
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Dec 10, 2021 09:23
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I went to the lourve once and walking by the millenia of masterpieces I was like "drat could we please cover another topic besides the life and death of Jesus??" much like this thread
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Dec 10, 2021 09:25
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Was antonymous a real poster? what evidence do we have now, 5 minute after his last post, besides the stories of those who posted contemporaneously with him
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Dec 10, 2021 09:26
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please stick to pre-modern history questions about antonymous.
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Dec 10, 2021 11:38
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We have no reason to believe contemporary stories of Antonymous' existence because they were all recorded by drunks, fools, and propagandists looking to use stories of his posts for their own ends.
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Dec 10, 2021 11:53
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But then again, why would some one invent such a lovely poster?
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Dec 10, 2021 22:12
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PawParole posted:Mark is the oldest book in the New Testament written around 70 AD , while the Song of Deborah is the oldest part of he Bible period, written around the 12th century BC. I thought the oldest New Testament books were some of the epistles
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Dec 11, 2021 03:03
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indigi posted:I thought the oldest New Testament books were some of the epistles Probably correct regarding the authentic works. Mark is the oldest gospel though, according to scholars, as there are allusions to the First Jewish War in it among other arcane details that are lost on me. As for the historicity of Jesus, Richard Carrier's work is probably the most credible of the mythicists imo and is a fun think.
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Dec 11, 2021 03:41
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The genuine Pauline letters were written first, 1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, and Romans. Then came the gospels Mark and Matthew in that order. Next is the Luke-Acts work although parts of Acts may have been added as late as the 2nd century. The gospel of John and Revelations appear at the end of the first century and the pseudo-Pauline letters are some of the last works written.
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Dec 11, 2021 04:27
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Yadoppsi posted:The genuine Pauline letters were written first, 1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, and Romans. Then came the gospels Mark and Matthew in that order. Next is the Luke-Acts work although parts of Acts may have been added as late as the 2nd century. The gospel of John and Revelations appear at the end of the first century and the pseudo-Pauline letters are some of the last works written.
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Dec 11, 2021 05:02
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shirunei posted:Probably correct regarding the authentic works. Mark is the oldest gospel though, according to scholars, as there are allusions to the First Jewish War in it among other arcane details that are lost on me. As for the historicity of Jesus, Richard Carrier's work is probably the most credible of the mythicists imo and is a fun think. He is also someone who believes that Christianity held Europe back a thousand years and that without them the Romans would soon have had a scientific revolution. He is one of those Reddit atheists with enough academic training to seem convincing, but he is not a serious scholar, as all he does is look for arguments that support his existing ideas.
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Dec 11, 2021 11:31
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shirunei posted:As for the historicity of Jesus, Richard Carrier's work is probably the most credible of the mythicists imo and is a fun think. Carrier is a lunatic who believes in reverse euhemerization (basically that Jesus was a pagan god whose worshippers decided actually existed, then made up lore for) dudes a complete fringe wacko and even the original mythicists from the 1800’s make more sense than him. PawParole has issued a correction as of 15:45 on Dec 11, 2021 |
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Dec 11, 2021 15:35
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If Jesus was historical figure then what did the disciples experience that made them convinced of resurrection? Men of flesh and blood don't come back to life. Myths do.
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Dec 11, 2021 22:21
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PawParole posted:Mark is the oldest book in the New Testament written around 70 AD , while the Song of Deborah is the oldest part of he Bible period, written around the 12th century BC. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbOmruiAeYk a fun reading by laurence olivier, for anyone interested.
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Dec 11, 2021 22:30
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Fish of hemp posted:If Jesus was historical figure then what did the disciples experience that made them convinced of resurrection? Men of flesh and blood don't come back to life. Myths do.
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Dec 11, 2021 22:39
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Fish of hemp posted:If Jesus was historical figure then what did the disciples experience that made them convinced of resurrection? Men of flesh and blood don't come back to life. Myths do. I think the idea is that the mythology is built around an actual historical figure, not invented whole-cloth.
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Dec 11, 2021 22:41
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Fish of hemp posted:If Jesus was historical figure then what did the disciples experience that made them convinced of resurrection? Men of flesh and blood don't come back to life. Myths do. maybe he did some extremely dangerous poo poo or got hunted down by the authorities and everyone was like "welp hes dead" and then a few days laters he shows up and everyone is like "oh poo poo". maybe they went to his grave a few days later and some stuff had been moved around or some poo poo. its not hard to assume some relatively mundance occurance got twisted into myth over the decades. as i imagine also happened with all the other miracles
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Dec 11, 2021 22:46
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huh, the book of job was written a lot more recently than i always thought
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Dec 11, 2021 22:49
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babypolis posted:maybe he did some extremely dangerous poo poo or got hunted down by the authorities and everyone was like "welp hes dead" and then a few days laters he shows up and everyone is like "oh poo poo". maybe they went to his grave a few days later and some stuff had been moved around or some poo poo. its not hard to assume some relatively mundance occurance got twisted into myth over the decades. as i imagine also happened with all the other miracles yeah the resurrection is where the influence of the messianic prophecies really comes into play. jesus needed to be bodily lifted into heaven like elijah, but also he died, so...
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Dec 11, 2021 22:53
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Fish of hemp posted:If Jesus was historical figure then what did the disciples experience that made them convinced of resurrection? Men of flesh and blood don't come back to life. Myths do. the only people aware of Jesus supposed return were the Apostles and their close friends. Jesus' personal ministry ends with his death. Jesus appears to the collected group during Pentecost, but otherwise appears to individuals or small groups. There are no further events like the mass preaching done when the miracle of the loaves and fish occurred. The historical jesus got killed and then his followers cooked up the resurrection story to retain their followers. it worked.
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Dec 11, 2021 22:57
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WoodrowSkillson posted:the only people aware of Jesus supposed return were the Apostles and their close friends. Jesus' personal ministry ends with his death. Jesus appears to the collected group during Pentecost, but otherwise appears to individuals or small groups. There are no further events like the mass preaching done when the miracle of the loaves and fish occurred. yeah they could also have straight up lied about it. or maybe some dude who looked just like him showed up somewhere. theres a billion things that could have trasnformed into resurrection over time
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Dec 11, 2021 23:00
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babypolis posted:yeah they could also have straight up lied about it. or maybe some dude who looked just like him showed up somewhere. theres a billion things that could have trasnformed into resurrection over time it does not even take malice. Only one of them had to have a breakdown and "see" jesus and everything else could happen unintentionally. We have seen cults convince themselves of their nonsense strongly enough to commit suicide over it. Jesus's disciples convincing themselves he was appearing to them is entirely plausible
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Dec 11, 2021 23:03
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Really telling how know one is taking into account Jesus' travels through the Americas...
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Dec 11, 2021 23:08
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buncha doubting thomases itt
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Dec 11, 2021 23:08
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papa horny michael posted:Really telling how know one is taking into account Jesus' travels through the Americas... Or his visit to his younger brother in China
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Dec 11, 2021 23:13
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Mark, which many think is the oldest Gospel, originally just ends with the empty tomb. It's well understood even by believers, that the miraculous resurrection stories were a later addition.
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Dec 12, 2021 00:10
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are any of the non-canon bible books and stories older?
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Dec 12, 2021 00:17
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Jesus is real and I've met him He's cool
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Dec 12, 2021 01:43
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Not sorry I started this derail, it's been fascinating and educational https://twitter.com/lukeisamazing/status/1464403818536476684?t=zvUjQbxA9U9RQDOFlBQuTg&s=19
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Dec 12, 2021 02:31
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papa horny michael posted:are any of the non-canon bible books and stories older? not unless you consider stuff we haven’t found like early drafts of Mark’s passion or the source John used for his gospel or Q “non-canonical”
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Dec 12, 2021 03:06
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it's driving me nuts i can't think of it specifically right now, but in the old testament there's a chapter about a boy working in the temple who finds a dusty old scroll and the priest realizes they've been doing judaism wrong which sparks some sort of reformation. i assume this has some historical analogue and that lots of israelite canon (non-canaanical sources heh) was shed after the return from babylonian exile
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Dec 12, 2021 03:35
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papa horny michael posted:are any of the non-canon bible books and stories older? sure, we have books from the dead sea scrolls that were used by a jewish community from around the same time that are religious in nature but not canonical to any modern group now if you mean any that would be explicitly christian, no those tend to be from the 2nd and 3rd centuries at the earliest we do know that there were written accounts being passed around prior to the composition of the pauline epistles and the synoptic gospels, but sadly none have survived. we get tantalizing mentions in the writing of the church fathers, like papias mentioning the "logia" of matthew written in aramaic, but from linguistic evidence, we're quite certain that the gospel of matthew was written in greek or the so-called egerton gospel, of which we have only a small fragment dated somewhere from 100 to 200, which gives an account of a miracle of jesus that has no parallel in any of the four gospels and which doesn't seem to share any linguistic relationship with them it's most likely that anything the various christian communities found useful made their way into one book or another and the rest, barring some incredible archaeological find, is just lost to us
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Dec 12, 2021 03:42
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