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Years ago a friend of mine wrote to Terry because she was hoping to invite him to speak at TCD's Debating Society and followed up with a call to his agent (not really hoping for much) and got the response "Oh yes, I remember your letter. Listen, Terry isn't going to be in Dublin anytime soon but would you like to talk to him?" and before she could process what was happening Rob had handed the phone over and she ended up having a half hour call with Terry who had been sitting in the same room and he told her all about the Aching book he was in the process of writing.
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Dec 9, 2021 12:56
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ChubbyChecker posted:pratchett was a white boomer, and they mostly trust cops, because cops are usually nice to them But on the other hand, it is fantasy...
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Dec 10, 2021 18:37
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The message of Night Watch was more "if you police protest with draconian force, you turn protest into riot, and possibly revolution". What Vimes does with The Glorious Republic Of Treacle Mine Road isn't any of those things, it's more like a military action. He enlists the public, builds a shitload of barricades, and mans them with armed partisans (and malicious grannies)
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Dec 10, 2021 19:00
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Pacifistic? They straight up burn down a police station and Vimes kills a cop and mercy-kills their victims
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Dec 10, 2021 22:10
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There was a whole thing about the Dolly Sisters Riot starting as a peaceful protest, and only turned into a riot when the police escalated with violence.
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Dec 10, 2021 22:19
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Complete with agents provocateur to use it as an excuse for further crackdowns from the state.
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Dec 11, 2021 01:17
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ChubbyChecker posted:pratchett was a white boomer, and they mostly trust cops, because cops are usually nice to them I mean, yeah, this is pretty much it. For all that Pratchett was progressive, he wasn't perfect and he was a product of his times. Copaganda is amazingly pervasive and has only really been called out as such in the last decade. And honestly, it's a compelling character: the cunning policeman who wants to solve mysteries and protect people and only hurt people who really deserve it (and we know they really deserve it because we've seen it from inside his head). He's a great protagonist, able to go anywhere and get his hands dirty, he lets you tell a lot of interesting stories about Bad People who he can righteously catch (and if he bends the laws a little bit on the way, it's okay because you've seen firsthand how Bad these People are). There's a reason there are loving tons of cop shows out there, and at this point it's almost a secondary effect the way they pave the way for bad cops in real life.
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Dec 13, 2021 00:43
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Also, if you are writing a series, it is easy to get a cop or detective involved with the plot. Other protagonists you got to figure out why they are there, why they care about the outcome, and why they don't just go home. With a cop or detective you can skip all those steps because the answer is "It's their job to solve this." I vaguely recall Pratchett mentioning that as a why there are so many Watch books. He wants to set something in Ankh Morpork and it is very easy to get the watch involved in the conflict. Part of why Moist was made was to be someone else to focus on that wouldn't get the watch involved. Letting you skip those explanations lets you jump very quickly to the story. It's why there are so many crime procedurals. Every episode the answer to why the main character is involved is because they were hired/it's their job. It streamlines an episodic show.
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Dec 13, 2021 01:20
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Is the current leftist discourse that anything portraying cops as anything other than complete inhuman monsters copaganda now or
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Dec 13, 2021 04:57
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I can't speak for elsewhere, but in America there are no good cops. Good cops are a myth. If good cops existed, they'd be trying to stop the bad ones instead of defending them. They'd be leaving their unions en masse to protest the unions' protection of bad cops. Cops also do not exist to protect people, they exist to protect the property of the wealthy and privileged. They always have, straight back to their origins as runaway slave patrols. Anything portraying otherwise is copaganda.
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Dec 13, 2021 05:11
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Whew, good thing the Disc exists in a fictional dimension! You had me worried for a bit.
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Dec 13, 2021 05:29
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And yet the Discworld books exist in the real world. Given the themes of how narrative influences reality in the Disc, considering how the characters in the stories reflect and interact with real life society is pretty fundamental.
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Dec 13, 2021 09:39
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Pratchett is writing from a UK perspective and Vimes represents the post-thatcher policing-by-consent ideal. He's also a perfect straight-man, which makes him a wonderful counterweight to whatever insanity Pratchett chooses to throw into his story.
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Dec 13, 2021 10:39
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Alchenar posted:Pratchett is writing from a UK perspective and Vimes represents the post-thatcher policing-by-consent ideal. Robert Peel wasn't post-Thatcher.
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Dec 13, 2021 10:52
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Jedit posted:Robert Peel wasn't post-Thatcher. I know, I think Pratchett is fudging the historic Peel reforms with more contemporary reforms to fit the duality of Rimworld being a fantasy land that experiences modern day issues - the plotlines around diversification of the Watch is very post-Stephen Lawrence. e: well, actually written contemporaneously and probably a little before Lawrence's murder. Regardless Pratchett there is writing about the policy discussions about policing that were happening in the late 80/early 90's. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 11:04
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Devorum posted:They always have, straight back to their origins as runaway slave patrols.
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Dec 13, 2021 12:22
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Alhazred posted:But that's pretty specific to the USA though. In Britain or Europe in general cops doesn't origin from slave patrols. No, no, there’s only one country in the world and that’s America
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Dec 13, 2021 14:10
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I always read the Dolly Sisters riot as a replay/reference to the Peterloo Massacre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre
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Dec 13, 2021 14:28
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yaffle posted:I always read the Dolly Sisters riot as a replay/reference to the Peterloo Massacre. I always thought that too.
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Dec 13, 2021 15:02
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"Only American cops are bad. My country's cops are cool and good." 
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Dec 13, 2021 15:08
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Alhazred posted:But that's pretty specific to the USA though. In Britain or Europe in general cops doesn't origin from slave patrols. I'd be willing to wager they do originate from protecting the wealth of the privileged class, though. It just manifests differently in Europe than it did in America. I'm not saying that cops in Europe are as bad as in America, though I can say that in my experience the Italian carabinieri are pretty corrupt. thetoughestbean posted:No, no, there’s only one country in the world and that’s America That's the entire reason I said "I can only speak on American cops". I've lived in more countries than 99% of Americans ever visit. I know other countries exist, and I know their policing isn't all the same. That doesn't make European cops the good guys. Devorum fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 15:09
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Imagined posted:"Only American cops are bad. My country's cops are cool and good." I’m American, I don’t think foreign cops are shining beacons of justice, but goddamn is it tiresome for every discussion about a fantasy world to eventually end up with a person yelling about how all cops are bastards.
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Dec 13, 2021 15:11
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Pratchett could write good cops since he was writing fantasy books.
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Dec 13, 2021 15:17
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Why is the debate in a Pratchett thread about real-world cops and not about whether Sam Vimes is a bastard? Because I’m pretty sure he’s depicted as a bastard who just happens to be interested in justice. Carrot is the copaganda character if the thread wants to discuss that, on top of being the pro-monarchy character, arguably. I’d argue that latter point shows Pratchett indicating that a rightful and wise monarch would refuse the position, but the former is more complex and interesting. The Fifth Elephant certainly offers some evidence that Carrot is a bastard, for instance, but he’s off-duty.
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Dec 13, 2021 16:13
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Narsham posted:Why is the debate in a Pratchett thread about real-world cops and not about whether Sam Vimes is a bastard? Because I’m pretty sure he’s depicted as a bastard who just happens to be interested in justice. ITT we get back on topic - love it. And yes, Vimes is most definitely a bastard. So is Carrot but he is also better at hiding it.
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Dec 13, 2021 16:17
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Devorum posted:I'm not saying that cops in Europe are as bad as in America, though I can say that in my experience the Italian carabinieri are pretty corrupt. This is a bad example because they are military and that's also why they are untouchable which helps with getting a good corruption on.
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Dec 13, 2021 16:22
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not a bot posted:This is a bad example because they are military and that's also why they are untouchable which helps with getting a good corruption on. Sure, but I saw far more of them than I did Polizia di Stato when I lived there. Hell, I saw more Guardia di Finanzia than Polizia. Maybe it's a regional thing, though. The thing is, I don't really see The Watch as real copaganda. It kinda toes the line, with Carrot representing the ideal Good Cop, but Nobby is a right bastard...especially early on. Always up to put the boot in and shake someone down.
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Dec 13, 2021 16:29
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Narsham posted:
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Dec 13, 2021 16:38
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thetoughestbean posted:I’m American, I don’t think foreign cops are shining beacons of justice, but goddamn is it tiresome for every discussion about a fantasy world to eventually end up with a person yelling about how all cops are bastards. The trouble is that closest British analogue to the Watch is the London Metropolitan Police, and they are all corrupt racist fucks who revel in violence and are basically the militant wing of the Tory party.
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Dec 13, 2021 16:42
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In a way, Guards, Guards! is closer to TCM/TLF in spirit than the later books, albeit much more polished. The police procedural aspects is clearly there as a way to parody the fantasy aspect (The grunts are actually solving the fantasy plot by way of modern police work) and not itself the target of parody. That changes pretty fast, with the following books becoming the police procedurals. And honestly, Prachett does the "Institutions aren't bad, people are bad" a lot throughout his books. And that does make a lot of sense with his humanistic/optimistic outlook on life. And that a series that started in the early '80 isn't 100% in line with a 2021 social discurs isn't that surprising either. edit: Also Carot sucks, both as a concept and as a character. e X fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 16:45
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Pyramids talks a lot about the institutionalisation of horror and Carrot is amazing
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Dec 13, 2021 19:36
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:The trouble is that closest British analogue to the Watch is the London Metropolitan Police, and they are all corrupt racist fucks who revel in violence and are basically the militant wing of the Tory party. Yes, but the closest Disc analogue to the Met is the Watch when Vimes first joined. Which, in turn, is like the London police before the Met was founded on the Peelian principles. Vimes isn't what a copper is; he's what a copper should be.
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Dec 13, 2021 19:46
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There's also a not particuarly subtle point Pratchett makes about how diversity makes the Watch better at its job.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:03
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And Vimes is explicitly the only person suited to his job because he hates structures of authority. Y'all acting like you never heard of Old Stoneface.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:17
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Total Meatlove posted:Pyramids talks a lot about the institutionalisation of horror ... Sorry to be a dunce, but what does this mean?
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Dec 13, 2021 20:49
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Strange Cares posted:Sorry to be a dunce, but what does this mean? I had the wrong book, but this quote is the heart of it; Small Gods posted:
Vorbis is described as a zealot wedded to the machinery of the state, quisitioning anyone for Om. The vindictivness of the torture is abstracted and mechanised by the end of the book. Granny Weatherwax’ ‘people as things’ speech comes about as a discussion on Omniasm generally, and then into Night Watch and the Specials offices during the raid.
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Dec 13, 2021 22:50
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I was thinking I'd missed a really major theme in Pyramids. I guess it... kind of... fits?
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Dec 14, 2021 10:19
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Total Meatlove posted:I had the wrong book, but this quote is the heart of it;
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Dec 14, 2021 12:00
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I don't think Vorbis ever actually cared whether it was true or not. He persecuted it because it was counter to the teachings of Om, and that was his power framework.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:48
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He absolutely doesn't care. He says as much about his views on what is True verses true when Brutha asks him what really happened to the person they sent to Ephebia in the first place.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:53
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