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Honestly, I'm not sure how literal that scene is. After a point it's very clearly not, it's just a little hard to pinpoint what we see before then. My reading is that while it initially looks like it's during the Final Days, the actual meeting between her and the wannabe-sacrifices is after Zodiark had been summoned, before much cleanup has happened, and is the prelude to the second sacrifice. And what Venat does then isn't literally 'summon Hydaelyn right then and there', but rather the point where she realizes that she has to; that the hope things wouldn't require her to do the worst of it is now dashed, that she really does have to go through with the Sundering to protect her planet's people from themselves. So there's a time jump between that point and the 'walking through weird space-void' part, as well as likely another one before that meeting. EDIT: Basically beaten on this, but yeah. We can't read that scene as a singular window to events as they happened. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Dec 11, 2021 |
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Dec 11, 2021 16:22
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What I'm confused here is the second sacrifice now supposed to be bad? It's always shown as one of the last acts of the ancients selflessness. The star was devastated after the final days and it was the second sacrifice that gave birth to the new life in the first place. But now it's bad because it's seeking past perfection or some stupid poo poo? 
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Dec 11, 2021 16:26
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Eimi posted:What I'm confused here is the second sacrifice now supposed to be bad? It's always shown as one of the last acts of the ancients selflessness. The star was devastated after the final days and it was the second sacrifice that gave birth to the new life in the first place. But now it's bad because it's seeking past perfection or some stupid poo poo? The issue is that they weren't going to stop at that point. They could've done the longer path of using creation magic to repair the planet and instead chose a second mass sacrifice, because at that point sacrifice is easier than struggle. That's the issue Venat ultimately has, they're accepting mass death as an option to solve problems and how long until they reach the point she knows they will, that they will sacrifice the life of the planet to bring back those who were used to summon Zodiark and empower him. They'd turned their backs on stewarding the star as it is, and instead reaching futilely for the star as it was, which she knows they can never return to. It is however not necessarily meant to be a good thing she chose Sundering instead of working with the Convocation, it's an extreme act she could've tried more to do otherwise.
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Dec 11, 2021 16:37
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Eimi posted:What I'm confused here is the second sacrifice now supposed to be bad? It's always shown as one of the last acts of the ancients selflessness. The star was devastated after the final days and it was the second sacrifice that gave birth to the new life in the first place. But now it's bad because it's seeking past perfection or some stupid poo poo? Consider that we only know about the second sacrifice from two sources: Hythlodaeus' shade, and that scene with Venat. Hythlodaeus' shade didn't know what caused the disaster they just faced, or that it could ever come back (because he's an extension of Emet, who also didn't know those things). All he knows is that people willingly gave their lives so that their fellow men and women could have their life back. And that they were willing to do it again through different means, but were stopped. Venat knows exactly what's going on, having been told all this. She knows that she has to go through with the Sundering, because not only are the non-Ancients the ones that would be capable of stopping the End of Days coming back, she also knows that if the Ancients continued to sacrifice people to prolong their fingers-in-ears peace, then there wouldn't even be a planet to save eventually. At that point, she sees that she can't avert the Ancients from that course through words alone; the slope has given way, and if something doesn't stop them, Amaurot will slide off a cliff. The second summoning was a show of selflessness to the people who did it and benefitted from it, like Hythlodaeus and Emet... but to Venat, it was the sad proof that she can't save them from themselves.
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Dec 11, 2021 16:43
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The second sacrifice was a very noble tragedy, the act itself wasn't some great dark act but it represented the ancients' complete lack of ability to deal with their core issue. They both physically couldn't handle a Dynamis focused event like The Final Days and also mentally and culturally had no solutions other than 'let's just keep sacrificing people to keep the bandaid on' which while a noble thought (until they start sacrificing people other than themselves at least...) is nothing but a prolonging of the tragedy. She couldn't accept that mass death, fairly constantly, was the only option, so she sacrificed everything to end the cycle at once.
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Dec 11, 2021 16:53
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This thread got a lot of posts in the last couple days and I wasn't really able to keep up, but I wanted to say something re: the sundering. Specifically this point.Cleretic posted:They see sundering as death because they buy in to the (extremely troubling) rhetoric that the sundered aren't people. Since we don't really have a term for 'turning an entire population into inferior beings we don't see as truly living', 'genocide' suffices to them. This isn't why I feel like I can only read the Sundering as murder at all. It was murder because it erased the identities of everyone on the planet, as we learn in the post-Qitana Ravel scene with Emet in ShB where he talks about how everyone retained only shattered, vague recollections of the lives of the people their souls were broken off from, to the point that they lost all civilization and went back to living in caves. It transformed people in body and mind into different individuals. The plot as a whole repeatedly emphasizes that, in this setting, death of identity is definitively still death, and that reincarnations of people that share a soul and maybe some lingering memories or associations with their past selves are nevertheless not the same person, or at least are not assumed to be. This is represented in Ryne, Gaia (+Mitron), Fandaniel, and even the player character's arcs, among others. The Rejoining, which doesn't destroy souls but rather fuses them with others, is unambiguously depicted by the story as death. Ardbert rejoined with the Warrior of Light, but his identity didn't survive the process even if his 'essence' did, so he's dead. The point gets hammered in over and over again. It's obvious that the writers don't want us to think of sundering as equally bad to rejoining, but I feel like they wrote themselves into a corner with their themes and setting mechanics where it's hard to view it in any other sense. You can feel the script trying to avoid looking at the plot point deeply in the way it did in Shadowbringers, when the morality of the situation was presented as more ambiguous. My guess would be that decided from the beginning that they wanted Venat and her actions to be revealed to be a little complicated but ultimately heroic, but couldn't quite figure out a way to get there with what was already in game. And so you end up with a sorta messy, insecure-feeling plotline where they throw out multiple explanations for her actions without ever elaborating on any too deeply: People needed to be able to use dynamis, she had to close the stable time loop, people had to 'learn suffering' because the status quo was unnatural, etc. And they go in really hard on signalling how virtuous and self-sacrificial and loving she is. And it's hard, for me at least, to know what to make of it. Like, I feel like there's this undercurrent here that presumes anyone who'd feel weird about the plot beat is looking for an excuse to lionize the Ascians and say the rejoining was okay, but that's not how I feel at all - they were unambiguously doing genocide themselves. Identity death is death, reincarnation or not. What's offputting is the dissonance where there's a character who basically did the same thing, but gets 0 heat for it. PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Dec 11, 2021 |
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Dec 11, 2021 17:35
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The second sacrifice was necessary because the planet was unlivable. I don't know exactly why Venat was so upset about it in particular (assuming she was reacting to the second sacrifice and not the third), but if the seas and ground can't support life, that's not something you can really bootstraps yourself out of with hope and plucky determination. I'd even argue the third sacrifice was needed in some respect, considering we now know that the souls that gave their aether to Zodiark were floating around inside him whole--and it's not like Venat was forthcoming about her knowledge of the Sound and its source, so they couldn't take care of the problem directly. Cutting the people that sacrificed themselves to save the planet off from the Lifestream forever is pretty hosed up.
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Dec 11, 2021 17:37
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musouka posted:The second sacrifice was necessary because the planet was unlivable. I don't know exactly why Venat was so upset about it in particular (assuming she was reacting to the second sacrifice and not the third), but if the seas and ground can't support life, that's not something you can really bootstraps yourself out of with hope and plucky determination. I'd even argue the third sacrifice was needed in some respect, considering we now know that the souls that gave their aether to Zodiark were floating around inside him whole--and it's not like Venat was forthcoming about her knowledge of the Sound and its source, so they couldn't take care of the problem directly. Cutting the people that sacrificed themselves to save the planet off from the Lifestream forever is pretty hosed up. Like others have said this is likely not a 1:1 literal memory but more the timestreams merging and our general bond with Venat giving us a kinda echo-fueled TL;DR of her actual journey. She likely didn't literally walk by the two people who would recognize her the most and right into a meeting of the convocation and attack them with her cool glowy sword, but rather it was a general representation of the weariness and pain she felt. Also it wouldn't matter if she was forthcoming or not, A) nearly every other ancient one literally doesn't know dynamis and such exists at all so it'd be like someone bursting into a university all 'HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT FLIBBLEFLOO, THE SECRET BONUS COSMIC FORCE????' Even if that person was respected they'd likely have very little genuine support, and B) even if they did 100% take her words to heart they literally could not do anything, their aether based nature made them direct opposition to dynamis and unable to manipulate it. We don't know how 'forthcoming' she was but even if she walked around telling every single ancient one exactly what happened with Hermes not even Hermes himself would agree with her.
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Dec 11, 2021 17:45
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sexpig by night posted:Also it wouldn't matter if she was forthcoming or not, A) nearly every other ancient one literally doesn't know dynamis and such exists at all so it'd be like someone bursting into a university all 'HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT FLIBBLEFLOO, THE SECRET BONUS COSMIC FORCE????' Even if that person was respected they'd likely have very little genuine support, and B) even if they did 100% take her words to heart they literally could not do anything, their aether based nature made them direct opposition to dynamis and unable to manipulate it. We don't know how 'forthcoming' she was but even if she walked around telling every single ancient one exactly what happened with Hermes not even Hermes himself would agree with her. She can prove what happened with the Echo. The MSQ even says the Convocation has ways of telling if someone is telling the truth--whether be means of said Echo or something else we're not aware of--so it really isn't as though Venat has no recourse. Really, a better way to handle it would be to have Venat share her knowledge and then the Ancients lose their way as they attempt to deal with the Sound, thus causing necessity of the Sundering. However, if it's between putting the blame on the Ancients or making Venat look like a moron, I'll definitely choose Venat the idiot any day. musouka fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Dec 11, 2021 |
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Dec 11, 2021 17:50
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musouka posted:The second sacrifice was necessary because the planet was unlivable. I don't know exactly why Venat was so upset about it in particular (assuming she was reacting to the second sacrifice and not the third), but if the seas and ground can't support life, that's not something you can really bootstraps yourself out of with hope and plucky determination. I'd even argue the third sacrifice was needed in some respect, considering we now know that the souls that gave their aether to Zodiark were floating around inside him whole--and it's not like Venat was forthcoming about her knowledge of the Sound and its source, so they couldn't take care of the problem directly. Cutting the people that sacrificed themselves to save the planet off from the Lifestream forever is pretty hosed up. I actually think Eden proves the second sacrifice was not necessary. The First is in what is arguably a much worse shape than the Ancients lands were post End of Days, because the First had literally nothing and we still managed to heal it, without creation magic. Which the Ancients had, they built Elpis and every creature in it with creation magic, it's very possible they didn't need the second sacrifice to undo the End of Days, just enough hard work and acceptance that the past is in the past. Also removing those people from Zodiark would come at the cost of countless other lives, and might weaken the Celestial Aether enough that the End of Days would come back (admittedly nobody knows that). The Ancients who sacrificed themselves did so accepting they were dying for the good of the star, to focus on bringing them back at the cost of the star is wildly inappropriate. Also Venat heard Meteion's report, and so hearing the plans of her people to keep sacrificing and accept death as an answer to their situation probably set off warnings for her, they're acting in a way that matches the dead civilisations that Metieon reported on, or possibly very specifically The Plenty (which is deliberately designed as a potential endpoint for Ancient Civilisation, that's why it has the masks and robes in the dungeon.
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Dec 11, 2021 17:52
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Jetrauben posted:the Omicron homeworld explicitly sent a signal out saying "live" to all Omicrons in the galaxy. Is...is that what O.M.G. is reacting to? 
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Dec 11, 2021 17:57
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Lord_Magmar posted:I actually think Eden proves the second sacrifice was not necessary. The First is in what is arguably a much worse shape than the Ancients lands were post End of Days, because the First had literally nothing and we still managed to heal it, without creation magic. Which the Ancients had, they built Elpis and every creature in it with creation magic, it's very possible they didn't need the second sacrifice to undo the End of Days, just enough hard work and acceptance that the past is in the past. Also removing those people from Zodiark would come at the cost of countless other lives, and might weaken the Celestial Aether enough that the End of Days would come back (admittedly nobody knows that). The Ancients who sacrificed themselves did so accepting they were dying for the good of the star, to focus on bringing them back at the cost of the star is wildly inappropriate. Yea this too is important We see through Eden and other smaller scale things that people as powerful in creations as the ancients 100% could repair their lands, but it'd be slow and draining and it would mean moving forward rather than dwelling on 'reclaiming our world free of sorrow'. The sacrifices (the second at least, the third planned one was 100% too far and a complete confirmation for her that her people were lost) were noble acts but there's a point where even noble sacrifice isn't inherently correct and good and Venat, with the reports of other stars and knowledge of Meteion's nature, knew that if their go-to was 'let's just kill half of everyone' rather than 'poo poo...gotta rebuild a lot, let's get to work' her people were functionally dead anyway.
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Dec 11, 2021 17:58
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Lord_Magmar posted:I actually think Eden proves the second sacrifice was not necessary. The First is in what is arguably a much worse shape than the Ancients lands were post End of Days, because the First had literally nothing and we still managed to heal it, without creation magic. We fixed the First with aether; it didn't just naturally start growing back. And even so, we just started the process. It still has a lot of work to do. The First also benefits from a totally stable area that can support its current population. We have absolutely no idea if the Unsundered world was in the same shape after the Final Days.
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Dec 11, 2021 17:59
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honestly I can't say I really agree with this new interpretation but I think it just runs through that I think there are two parallel themes in EW with one that I just don't agree with at all. The first is one that I absolutely agree with and don't think is that controversial, namely that suffering still makes life worth living. "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." But the second one, that's played up in Venat's portrayal here is that life will always be suffering, or how I feel EW communicated it, some amount of suffering is NECESSARY for life, that I just philosophically don't agree with. There shouldn't be some barrier of quality of life that we should stop because of well not if things get too perfect then death of the universe or whatever. That feels like nonsense, that feels like it's all too easy to accept the atrocity of the present because well some suffering is necessary don't you see. This is of course a quandary where there is no true answer, but I personally reject EW's. I don't believe in the no win scenario.
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Dec 11, 2021 18:08
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Which is why that's not actually a theme. The story never says some amount of suffering is necessary and that's not Venat's actual argument. The statement is that if your response to suffering is to desperately attempt to undo it by mass sacrifice that's probably not a good response to pain and hurt. Moving on is the goal, learning to live with things and turn them around, always striving for better instead of accepting what is current. The sundering is her choice because the Ancients aren't dealing with their suffering, they're trying to pretend it doesn't exist and everything is fine and can be fine if only they just sacrifice enough to their god. None of the races shown at the end are actually perfect, they just thought they were and when that world view was damaged it drove them to the situation where they wished for death. The Ea thought they'd achieved immortality and perfection of science, only for the discovery of the concept of the universe itself will one day die breaking them. The Plenty destroyed it's world to attain perfection (this one is relevant, because that's what the Ancients were heading to, sacrificing more and more to achieve some impossible ideal of the perfect previous world, they never would've been satisfied until all of them were gone anyway). Working to counter suffering or remove it from the world is noble, ignoring it for an impossible nostalgic past is not. Her march isn't one of suffering is necessary, it's I have caused this suffering with my actions and I must now see it through to the end no matter how much it hurts to watch what I've done. The reverse of Emet-Selch, who must see his own plans through to the end no matter how much hurt he causes others to do so. The entire deal with Venat in EW is to make her a mirror of Emet-Selch, both noble, both monsters, both heroes, both villains, both tragic, both passing their legacy onto us. Basically one of the themes you see in EW I just don't see at all. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Dec 11, 2021 |
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Dec 11, 2021 18:15
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Thavnair kind of is the first time I remember where they hammer in the point, after which every repetition is just tapping the nail to remind you. Life has its ups and downs and an important part of life is getting back up after you fall. If you can cushion your fall next time based on what you've learned, even better.
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Dec 11, 2021 18:39
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Yea It's not 'you must have x amount of pain to be truly alive' it's 'suffering is inevitable, attempting to deal with it by ignoring it or obsessing over a time before the suffering will never work, you have to address it when it happens and move on even if it means moving on with scars and trauma.' It's not that suffering is needed, it's that suffering is a fact of life and addressing it is needed. Nobody is perfect in the story, they're all flawed beings, even the primals themselves as products of flawed beings. Pain is inevitable, perfection is impossible, this isn't some grand 'ah but to live you must have a certain amount of pain' no win thing it's a fact of what being a mortal being means. The response to that is either to dwell in the pain and sorrow or to move on through it, but either way the end is the same, it's just a matter of if you can take joy and pleasure in the time you have.
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Dec 11, 2021 18:44
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Talking to the Wandering Minstrel makes the game's stance on the Amaurotines' self-sacrifice to protect and restore the star point blank crystal clear if you didn't get it from Shadowbringers of Endwalkers' MSQ - it was an utterly noble act that we should admire and respect. The third round of sacrifices is frankly painted too vaguely to pin down how I'm supposed to feel about it - Venat's montage is vague, Shade Hythlodaeus's summary is vague. We find out that the souls of those sacrificed to Zodiark are trapped in a fate worse than death, which recontextualizes the Ascians' desperation to get them out, and that meanwhile, Hydaelyn has kept them locked there for twelve thousand years. Frankly, I get the feeling they wanted to avoid delving too deeply into the third round of sacrifices because they wanted both the Ancients and Venat to be ultimately sympathetic, and then you're stuck in a place where they're either sacrificing sapient beings and therefore the Ancients clearly come across as more monstrous (though again, finding out that the sacrificed Ancients aren't dead-dead and are more just trapped muddles things a bit regardless), or they're sacrificing mostly animals and such and then Venat looks like a lunatic. On top of that, things get muddled even further when you remember that initially, upon hearing the entire story, sacrifices to Zodiark and all, Venat is still completely confused as to why she would turn against the other Ancients and the Convocation's decision. Hearing about the planned sacrifices alone doesn't provoke her into instinctual horror or outrage or anything. She says that there still must be some other reason you don't have yet as to why she'd go that far, and the only thing that makes sense is learning about dynamis. The moralizing of 'you shouldn't look back to the past and try to restore things to how they were' doesn't resonate with me through the writing in context of the Sundering for many reasons, but that's a subjective response. I will say it feels to me more like a contortion to make Venat's actions feel artistic and emotionally resonant rather than concretely following what's actually happened in FFXIV's story.
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Dec 11, 2021 18:45
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I don’t feel that we’re meant to see being part of Zodiark as a fate worse than death. Hythlodaeus is part of Zodiark and perfectly fine. The scene with all the masks is Fandaniel bullying Zodiark into becoming a slave. Forcing the martyrs to become destroyers. They were happy serving the Star and protecting the planet. They want to be rejoined, which I think is the context for the wandering ghosts, they’re the souls that got seperate by Venat’s sundering and Fandaniel’s laser waking up Zodiark and so they want to once more rejoin Zodiark and protect the Star. Zodiark is made of those Ancients, I imagine much like Elidibus any that come out would not be the original but a facsimile that lost memories and remains a part of the Primal. Every soul that makes up Zodiark’s sole desire is the protection of the planet and the ending/reversal of the Final Days. They happily sacrificed themselves and their souls to become the ultimate creator god, for them no possible sacrifice is worth more than the salvation of the world. Zodiark is the martyr, the saviour, they beg you to save them from Fandaniel, not from their duty. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Dec 11, 2021 |
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Dec 11, 2021 19:03
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It's such a tonal shift from Garlemald to no thoughts head empty good vibes only of Elpis and beyond
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Dec 11, 2021 19:05
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Lord_Magmar posted:I don’t feel that we’re meant to see being part of Zodiark as a fate worse than death. Hythlodaeus is part of Zodiark and perfectly fine. The scene with all the masks is Fandaniel bullying Zodiark into becoming a slave. Forcing the martyrs to become destroyers. They were happy serving the Star and protecting the planet. They want to be rejoined, which I think is the context for the wandering ghosts, they’re the souls that got seperate by Venat’s sundering and Fandaniel’s laser waking up Zodiark and so they want to once more rejoin Zodiark and protect the Star. Zodiark is made of those Ancients, I imagine much like Elidibus any that come out would not be the original but a facsimile that lost memories and remains a part of the Primal. From the perspective of the traditional view we've seen: Being a part of Zodiark is to have sacrificed your intended afterlife and return as someone new. Forever. A considerable sacrifice, forever unable to move on.
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Dec 11, 2021 19:06
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sexpig by night posted:Like others have said this is likely not a 1:1 literal memory but more the timestreams merging and our general bond with Venat giving us a kinda echo-fueled TL;DR of her actual journey. She likely didn't literally walk by the two people who would recognize her the most and right into a meeting of the convocation and attack them with her cool glowy sword, but rather it was a general representation of the weariness and pain she felt. Has this ever been a thing with flashbacks? I really dislike that scene but I think I would go to 'it was a really bad scene' before I would go to 'it wasn't meant to be taken literally, unlike every other similar scene'
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Dec 11, 2021 19:07
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Lord_Magmar posted:I don’t feel that we’re meant to see being part of Zodiark as a fate worse than death. Hythlodaeus is part of Zodiark and perfectly fine. The scene with all the masks is Fandaniel bullying Zodiark into becoming a slave. Forcing the martyrs to become destroyers. They were happy serving the Star and protecting the planet. They want to be rejoined, which I think is the context for the wandering ghosts, they’re the souls that got seperate by Venat’s sundering and Fandaniel’s laser waking up Zodiark and so they want to once more rejoin Zodiark and protect the Star. Zodiark is made of those Ancients, I imagine much like Elidibus any that come out would not be the original but a facsimile that lost memories and remains a part of the Primal. They're cut off from the cycle of life and death and are trapped in purgatory. This to a people who dedicate their lives to the star and see returning to it, fulfilled, as the greatest form of happiness, and they are being denied that for as long as they are trapped in Zodiark. If we weren't meant to see them as suffering a terrible fate, the entire sequence on the moon where the souls start leaking out because most of the seal has been broken and you literally have to fight off their anguish and despair doesn't make any sense. If the desire to be Rejoined is fueling a part of that anguish, that makes Venat's actions even harsher. Hythlodaeus is Hythlodaeus, so he's always going to frame things a bit lightly, but remember that nice scene where he said his dream was to be with Emet-Selch and Azem, supporting them, until they could all return to the Star together? As long as he's in Zodiark, that is completely impossible. He's separated from them, forever - which is why you get that last bit of narration where he finally reunited with Emet in the Lifestream after Zodiark is gone. He's finally free.
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Dec 11, 2021 19:10
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Gearhead posted:From the perspective of the traditional view we've seen: Being a part of Zodiark is to have sacrificed your intended afterlife and return as someone new. Forever. A considerable sacrifice, forever unable to move on. Yes and they’re happy to do so. Also maybe when Zodiark pushes Aether into the celestial layer he expends a soul and it rejoins the planet. I don’t think he’s just freely creating all that Aether, that’s not really how it works after all. So imagine as long as he’s doing his job slowly the sacrifices souls are returned to the planet. But we see Hythlodaeus twice in that sequence, and both times he is perfectly happy as part of god, simply making comments or shooing his brethren when they let their emotions overwhelm them. Straight up when we get inside Zodiark and meet the souls, those big masks, all they can talk about is being the martyr, the saviour, wanting to be rejoined, protecting the Star. They don’t want to be freed they want to do the job they believed in enough to die for. Fandaniel is exerting his will over them as the new Heart, probably with the Echo like how Zenos exerted his will over Shinryu. But Shinryu was a mindless engine of destruction, here we see the people who made up Zodiark and they absolutely hate what Fandaniel is going to make them do.
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Dec 11, 2021 19:11
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Yeah this expac has some...issues with heroic sacrifices? There's the aforementioned Ancients stuff, there's Venat getting herself killed to test us, and there's your entire adventuring party sacrificing themselves to get your way clear. All of these are portrayed as, at the very least, Noble and Heroic, which I find very weird in a story that's all about overcoming despair and not killing yourself because bad things happen.
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Dec 11, 2021 19:12
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Lord_Magmar posted:Yes and they’re happy to do so. Also maybe when Zodiark pushes Aether into the celestial layer he expends a soul and it rejoins the planet. I don’t think he’s just freely creating all that Aether, that’s not really how it works after all. So imagine as long as he’s doing his job slowly the sacrifices souls are returned to the planet. But we see Hythlodaeus twice in that sequence, and both times he is perfectly happy as part of god, simply making comments or shooing his brethren when they let their emotions overwhelm them. Straight up when we get inside Zodiark and meet the souls, those big masks, all they can talk about is being the martyr, the saviour, wanting to be rejoined, protecting the Star. They don’t want to be freed they want to do the job they believed in enough to die for. Fandaniel is exerting his will over them as the new Heart, probably with the Echo like how Zenos exerted his will over Shinryu. But Shinryu was a mindless engine of destruction, here we see the people who made up Zodiark and they absolutely hate what Fandaniel is going to make them do. They're willing to do so because they are a good and noble people. That is different from being happy to - the willing sacrifice takes more meaning because they're not happy to. You didn't think Hythlodaeus gave Emet that casual smile and wave before running off to be sacrificed because he genuinely thought it would be a good time, did you? Did you understand what was happening between those two friends in that interaction?
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Dec 11, 2021 19:15
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Hellioning posted:Yeah this expac has some...issues with heroic sacrifices? There's the aforementioned Ancients stuff, there's Venat getting herself killed to test us, and there's your entire adventuring party sacrificing themselves to get your way clear. All of these are portrayed as, at the very least, Noble and Heroic, which I find very weird in a story that's all about overcoming despair and not killing yourself because bad things happen. At least one of these Venat is not sacrificing herself to test us. She’s already dying, she never had the amount of Aether Zodiark had, and she never took any additional Aether. She’s running out, and decided that her last act would be a kicking rad test. It’s less sacrifice and more my death is soon, let me go out in a blaze of glory. The Scions know you can bring them back, they believe you will carry on until the end and that they’re simply giving you the tools you need to reach it.
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Dec 11, 2021 19:15
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Francis posted:It's such a tonal shift from Garlemald to no thoughts head empty good vibes only of Elpis and beyond Calling Ultima Thule "good vibes only" is kind of lol.
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Dec 11, 2021 19:15
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Hellioning posted:Yeah this expac has some...issues with heroic sacrifices? There's the aforementioned Ancients stuff, there's Venat getting herself killed to test us, and there's your entire adventuring party sacrificing themselves to get your way clear. All of these are portrayed as, at the very least, Noble and Heroic, which I find very weird in a story that's all about overcoming despair and not killing yourself because bad things happen. Interestingly, I saw it as rejecting heroic sacrifices. Venat dies because a) she's already dying and has been for some time, and b) her purpose is fulfilled, something that the Ancients explicitly view as a good thing, not because she sacrifices herself just to test you. Same for Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus, finally able to reincarnate, which is especially meaningful for Hythlodaeus, who had previously sacrificed that to be part of Zodiark. And all of the Scions who evaporate ultimately return and everyone goes home together safely, with the WoL being berated for how reckless they were in sending everyone back to safety and fighting on alone.
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Dec 11, 2021 19:17
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Raelle posted:They're willing to do so because they are a good and noble people. That is different from being happy to - the willing sacrifice takes more meaning because they're not happy to. You didn't think Hythlodaeus gave Emet that casual smile and wave before running off to be sacrificed because he genuinely thought it would be a good time, did you? Did you understand what was happening between those two friends in that interaction? They consider it their duty to perform their role as Zodiark. Which in alignment with the shown ethics of the Ancients means until their duty as Zodiark is done, they will be happy to serve and live. Yes it’s not a good time, but they don’t want to be freed because they have a duty to do. I would assume they are happy to perform that duty, it is their sole desire as part of Zodiark to protect the Star.
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Dec 11, 2021 19:19
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Hellioning posted:Yeah this expac has some...issues with heroic sacrifices? There's the aforementioned Ancients stuff, there's Venat getting herself killed to test us, and there's your entire adventuring party sacrificing themselves to get your way clear. All of these are portrayed as, at the very least, Noble and Heroic, which I find very weird in a story that's all about overcoming despair and not killing yourself because bad things happen. Nevermind the people in G'raha Tia's future choosing to prioritize people dead in the past over aid to the people in the present - let alone G'raha himself happily accepting the reward that eventually came to him when he survived his trip and was given an offer to live in a "better" past, with the narrative's blessing. And nevermind the entire premise of Stormblood, where the entire conceit is encouraging people to put their lives on the line and not accept the new status quo and instead take back their old nations. Liberty or death was a thing actually used as a Big Thematic Line in that expac! And so much of Heavensward, too, is about the dragons being nostalgic about the days of old when they lived in peace with humanity and wanting to return to those days, and using that precedent as a goal to work towards with Ishgard. Wanting to turn back to the happier days of the past is bad, except when it isn't. This is part of why this aspect of Venat's portrayal just does not work for me and feels really insincere.
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Dec 11, 2021 19:20
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Lord_Magmar posted:At least one of these Venat is not sacrificing herself to test us. She’s already dying, she never had the amount of Aether Zodiark had, and she never took any additional Aether. She’s running out, and decided that her last act would be a kicking rad test. It’s less sacrifice and more my death is soon, let me go out in a blaze of glory. The Scions know you can bring them back, they believe you will carry on until the end and that they’re simply giving you the tools you need to reach it. Ah, fair enough. Harrow posted:Interestingly, I saw it as rejecting heroic sacrifices. Venat dies because a) she's already dying and has been for some time, and b) her purpose is fulfilled, something that the Ancients explicitly view as a good thing, not because she sacrifices herself just to test you. Same for Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus, finally able to reincarnate, which is especially meaningful for Hythlodaeus, who had previously sacrificed that to be part of Zodiark. And all of the Scions who evaporate ultimately return and everyone goes home together safely, with the WoL being berated for how reckless they were in sending everyone back to safety and fighting on alone. I mean I get that...but they still happen in the first place, and we're sad about it, but we never really object to anything until it's the teenagers sacrificing themselves.
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Dec 11, 2021 19:22
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Lord_Magmar posted:Yes and they’re happy to do so. Also maybe when Zodiark pushes Aether into the celestial layer he expends a soul and it rejoins the planet. The Watcher tells us none of them will be returned to the planet as long as Zodiark remains bound. It's possible that he was created to cycle aether, but if he was, then Hydaelyn was stopping him from fulfilling that purpose explicitly. I also think if you just watch/replay the bits on Mare Lamentorum, you'll see that it isn't happy times for the shades on the moon. The name of the area even references it.
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Dec 11, 2021 19:22
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Lord_Magmar posted:They consider it their duty to perform their role as Zodiark. Which in alignment with the shown ethics of the Ancients means until their duty as Zodiark is done, they will be happy to serve and live. Yes it’s not a good time, but they don’t want to be freed because they have a duty to do. I would assume they are happy to perform that duty, it is their sole desire as part of Zodiark to protect the Star. This makes about as much sense as saying the Scions were happy to die for you in Ultima Thule and it was a gross disrespect to recall their souls and bring them back. Again, the scene with Hythlodaeus talking about his dream of being with Emet-Selch and Azem, even in death, is there for a reason. What happened to him is tragic and awful - he subjected himself to a terrible fate because he's a good person, and of course Emet-Selch would basically drive himself insane before giving up on finding a way to save him. I'd think less of him if he didn't. Just because someone is willing to subject themselves to suffering out of a selfless desire to help other people does not mean I shrug and go "welp, okay, guess they're happy with that, better leave them to it and forget about it."
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Dec 11, 2021 19:24
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Raelle posted:Nevermind the people in G'raha Tia's future choosing to prioritize people dead in the past over aid to the people in the present - let alone G'raha himself happily accepting the reward that eventually came to him when he survived his trip and was given an offer to live in a "better" past, with the narrative's blessing. And nevermind the entire premise of Stormblood, where the entire conceit is encouraging people to put their lives on the line and not accept the new status quo and instead take back their old nations. Liberty or death was a thing actually used as a Big Thematic Line in that expac! And so much of Heavensward, too, is about the dragons being nostalgic about the days of old when they lived in peace with humanity and wanting to return to those days, and using that precedent as a goal to work towards with Ishgard. The people in G’raha’s future did not prioritise aiding the past over the future. They dedicated themselves to a goal in the hopes of averting a tragedy. They themselves don’t intend to return (the Ancients do), they also explicitly are aware they might cease to exist and have made peace with that same as the Ancients who became Zodiark. The equivalent would be someone trying to undo their sacrifice and save them at the cost of the thing they sacrificed to save. Stormblood makes a very explicit statement that the past was not all good and perfect, that is the entire point of Tsukuyomi plot, that Hien needs to make a nation better than the Doma of the past, one that will not produce someone like Yotsuyu from pain and cruelty and suffering. Ala Mihgo absolutely has no desire to return to the past before the Garlemald invasion because that past was an insane king who nearly destroyed his people. Stormblood is about moving on and changing and growing. As is Heavensward, the Dragons aren’t going we can undo this tragedy with sacrifice, they’re going we can move past it with understanding and healing. The Ancients aren’t just nostalgic for the past, they are trying to deny the tragedy even happened and will sacrifice whatever it takes to do so. Every example you gave is people trying to build a better future, not desperately clinging to the past that they lost. The dragon equivalent for the Ancients would not be continuing to sacrifice to Zodiark, it would be working towards a Star where Zodiark was no longer necessary and could be deconstructed. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Dec 11, 2021 |
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Dec 11, 2021 19:27
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Raelle posted:Nevermind the people in G'raha Tia's future choosing to prioritize people dead in the past over aid to the people in the present - let alone G'raha himself happily accepting the reward that eventually came to him when he survived his trip and was given an offer to live in a "better" past, with the narrative's blessing. And nevermind the entire premise of Stormblood, where the entire conceit is encouraging people to put their lives on the line and not accept the new status quo and instead take back their old nations. Liberty or death was a thing actually used as a Big Thematic Line in that expac! And so much of Heavensward, too, is about the dragons being nostalgic about the days of old when they lived in peace with humanity and wanting to return to those days, and using that precedent as a goal to work towards with Ishgard. The fundamental difference is that what Emet-Selch and the Ascians want to do is directly transpose the past into the present. They don't care about what's developed in the time since their heyday, nor do they care about the future percolating on the horizon. Places like Ala Mhigo and Ishgard/Dravania are mindful of the past, and may look to it for inspiration, but what they fundamentally want is something new that learns from what happened before. As Emet-Selch states, quite directly, he believes that Amaurot and the world of the ancients was perfect, and that it need only be brought back into reality for that perfection to return. It's the same sort of thing as Zod in Man of Steel wanting to recreate Krypton: he's dragging the past into the present without any regard for the inevitably calamitous future that doing so will create.
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Dec 11, 2021 19:28
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Like straight up now that I think about it. The way forward for the Ancients with what we now know, was not more sacrifice to Zodiark to solve their problems. Sacrificing more Ancients was the start of a cycle of sacrifice for miracles. The way forward as far as Endwalker seems concerned would be to build a future where Zodiark is not needed at all, not one where sacrifices are made in his name for miracles. Imagine if their goal was to rebuild the Star and find a permanent solution to the End of Days. Instead of tossing different aether into the big guy to get the souls of the Ancients back our. Creating a world where Zodiark is not needed should have been their goal. Perhaps Venat should have tried to present this argument. But by the time of the second sacrifice she seems certain she will not convince the remaining majority to do anything but continue making sacrifices. Like straight up I think a plan to rebuild the planet and solve the End of Days so that Zodiark can be unmade and the souls returned to the Star would have had Venat’s support. The fact that the plan was sacrifice stuff to Zodiark for miracles and the return of souls is proof to her that they would die regardless of what they did and she possibly did not have the capability to change the minds of the convocation at that point. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Dec 11, 2021 |
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Dec 11, 2021 19:32
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Lord_Magmar posted:Like straight up now that I think about it. The way forward for the Ancients with what we now know, was not more sacrifice to Zodiark to solve their problems. Sacrificing more Ancients was the start of a cycle of sacrifice for miracles. The way forward as far as Endwalker seems concerned would be to build a future where Zodiark is not needed at all, not one where sacrifices are made in his name for miracles. Imagine if their goal was to rebuild the Star and find a permanent solution to the End of Days. Instead of tossing different aether into the big guy to get the souls of the Ancients back our. Creating a world where Zodiark is not needed should have been their goal. I can absolutely agree with that, as far as "creating a world where Zodiark is not needed." But Venat's portrayal is unconvincing because, a) she chooses to not share the specific information they need to start working towards that, and b) you're going to have to put in a lot more work than a few lines in a montage sequence to convince me the Ancients, before they could even get to the step of saving their loved ones from being Zodiark food, were completely beyond reason to the degree that it was justified to end their lives. Like, let Emet get Hythlo out of Zodiark's stomach first, lady. Then if after the final step of the initial three-stage plan they're still high on loving sacrifice, maybe start considering Sundering if they're truly going Full Suicide Cult even after learning about Meteion and the definitive problem that needs solving.
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Dec 11, 2021 19:38
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She knew she had to complete the time loop. She wasn't going to do anything drastically different or otherwise who knows what would happen.
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Dec 11, 2021 19:40
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:She knew she had to complete the time loop. She wasn't going to do anything drastically different or otherwise who knows what would happen. If that was her primary motivation for doing what she did, that's fine. She made a calculated decision to trust in the future she knew for sure laid in the Warrior of Light instead of taking a risk in letting her people live. Just like how I can accept the angle of Venat doing what she did in a ruthless tactic to power up dynamis for a better chance against Meteion. But in that case, I don't really care for the arguments about her moral or ideological standings behind the Sundering and deciding the Ancients were just Too Far Gone, they had to be Sundered because they're just clinging to the past and want perfection and that's bad, better clip the wings. Like poorweather said, they sort of juggle about all these very different possible reasonings behind the Sundering, but instead of completing a coherent whole, it feels like they muddle each other and almost cancel each other out. Heck, as far as closing the time loop goes, the strong implication is that Emet is still MAD at her at the end because she willingly let him do everything he did in order to tie the timeline together, and was hoping setting things up that he could come back to life would make it up to him. Oops.
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Dec 11, 2021 19:47
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