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I'm a little late to the discussion about Trial of Magneto but so far I'm enjoying it, though I do wish there was an actual trial. But then again I guess She-Hulk and Daredevil are not mutants and since they're the only Marvel characters that ever seem to step foot in a courtroom an actual trial was never gonna happen.
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Dec 11, 2021 16:51
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There is that one mutant lawyer. She turns into a dragon, I believe. Claremont came up with her in X-Treme X-Men.
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Dec 11, 2021 16:59
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I have less problems with Trial of Magneto not actually having a trial of Magneto and more with it just baldly wasting everyone's time for issues on end. So far, zero things of consequence have actually happened; if the story ended right now, 100% of the characters involved would be the exact same as they were when the series started. Well, okay: Wanda felt guilty about things again and got over it again. Huzzah. The event is also chock full of Williams trying to force sentiments where they don't belong or didn't exist in order for, like, anything at all to be happening on the page, I guess. Quicksilver and the Brotherhood have this nostalgic scene of mourning for Wanda, but the fact was that both Wanda and Pietro 100% hated everyone in the Brotherhood and the time they spent in it, most of which consisted of the two of them trying to protect Wanda from the other members' sexual advances (including Magneto  ). And then in this issue Billy says "I've spent my whole life defending you!" to Wanda which is just...flat out objectively untrue by any measure, considering that Disassembled and House of M didn't happen until Billy was well into his teens and Wanda was just an ordinary Avenger before then.
BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Dec 11, 2021 |
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Dec 11, 2021 17:32
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JordanKai posted:As a kid I thought Mr Sinister was Colossus turned evil (they're both tall and have chrome-y white skin, you see) so I still hear a Russian accent in my head whenever I read his lines. Like every character that was in the 90s cartoon, he sounds like the cartoon version in my head.
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Dec 11, 2021 18:13
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Let us not forget that Sunspot has space lawyer Murd Blurdock (who is definitely not space superhero Seeing Being) on retainer.
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Dec 11, 2021 18:32
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Jiro posted:Do they die? Or does time just rewind back to the moment of her birth???? if you're the person being rewound, what's the difference? The "you" that gets rewound, erasing all of those experiences, is lost - and there's a nonzero chance that the ripple effects of Moira's actions leads to a new you that is entirely different, because you've had entirely different experiences.
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Dec 11, 2021 18:57
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BrianWilly posted:I have less problems with Trial of Magneto not actually having a trial of Magneto and more with it just baldly wasting everyone's time for issues on end. So far, zero things of consequence have actually happened; if the story ended right now, 100% of the characters involved would be the exact same as they were when the series started. I think the real "consequence" is that the mutants finally have to deal with the problem that is Wanda after demonizing her and indoctrinating kids to see her as the devil behind her back while Magneto still sees her as his daughter. And granted that may got be so much of an in-universe consequence as much as answering fan questions like "what's gonna happen when Wanda interacts with like, any mutant now that she's their Satan?" or "how does Magneto feel about everyone poo poo-talking Wanda all the time?"
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Dec 11, 2021 19:48
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I like how it looks like the next issue is going to begin with Wanda explaining what happened to her before X-Factor can solve the mystery.
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Dec 11, 2021 20:07
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Skwirl posted:Like every character that was in the 90s cartoon, he sounds like the cartoon version in my head. I just hear him as The Red Guy 90% of the time.
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Dec 12, 2021 08:09
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:if you're the person being rewound, what's the difference? I mean maybe? If you have no interaction with this person whatsoever, if it is just a rewind to the point of her birth, everything else happens the same unless you somehow cross paths with her. The average non NYC person is just or has just been repeating the same beats of their lives. Without knowing. That also means all the possible futures happen exactly the same until she interacts with them differently/dies.
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Dec 13, 2021 07:25
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If we were being fully time travel nerd about it, oxygen perturbation would change the genetic expression of every individual on Earth who was born after Moira so much as took a different route to the shops one day. Which would be kind of a bummer for the premise! At some point you gotta just accept the comic's rules on time travel, nod, and solemnly say, "yeah, that makes sense", because it's nearly impossible to tell most time travel stories without some imaginative fiat. Also, yeah, rewound individuals presumably wouldn't have continuity of consciousness even if their experiences of repeated life were identical. Although this is a universe where souls exist and backup-based resurrection houses them correctly in their bodies, so you never know.
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Dec 13, 2021 11:34
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it is a bit weird how this all unfolds, this is Moira's last life, why is she so cavalier about her safety? and the more people know, the higher the chance someone will just kill her out of spite to reset everything "so everyone can have a fresh and free start" or something
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Dec 13, 2021 12:17
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Jiro posted:I mean maybe? If you have no interaction with this person whatsoever, if it is just a rewind to the point of her birth, everything else happens the same unless you somehow cross paths with her. The average non NYC person is just or has just been repeating the same beats of their lives. Without knowing. That also means all the possible futures happen exactly the same until she interacts with them differently/dies. OK, so that's not only not what she explains (the world goes the same path as first life only if she's passive, which she only was in her first life), it is clearly not true because it assumes average non NYC person isn't affected when she, y'know, ties her hitch to Apocalypse. There's clearly butterfly effects in play here. One thing House of M tried to do (without being entirely successful, imo) was to talk about the ethical consequences of alternate worlds and timelines. It would be nice if Moira was confronted with this.
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Dec 13, 2021 13:54
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I guess I'm coming at it from the standpoint of Emma not really telling them EVERYTHING and Destiny willingly playing along knowing they're being used. Which led me to my assumption as to the nature of Moira's resets vs Emma's ultimate goals since she's standing apart from Charles and Erik.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:17
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Jiro posted:I guess I'm coming at it from the standpoint of Emma not really telling them EVERYTHING and Destiny willingly playing along knowing they're being used. Which led me to my assumption as to the nature of Moira's resets vs Emma's ultimate goals since she's standing apart from Charles and Erik. Emma wants to protect "her children" which are all the young mutants. Mystique wants to make sure that she never loses Destiny again. Destiny likely wants what's best for the survival of mutants. Charles and Magneto still can't agree, since Xavier wants peace and Magneto now thinks ruling with an iron fist is best according to the last issue.
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Dec 13, 2021 19:58
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Jiro posted:I mean maybe? If you have no interaction with this person whatsoever, if it is just a rewind to the point of her birth, everything else happens the same unless you somehow cross paths with her. The average non NYC person is just or has just been repeating the same beats of their lives. Without knowing. That also means all the possible futures happen exactly the same until she interacts with them differently/dies. I think that's a pretty big assumption. Like, the average non-NYC person is still gonna have their life affected when Moira walks up to En Sabah Nur and goes "Hey do you wanna know the best way to conquer the world" or the like, as has been noted. But even without that point, bear in mind that the characters who are currently - not unreasonably - kinda concerned about their lives being effectively erased by Moira are mutants - the people who can't say "oh well it won't be a big deal, Moira hasn't had a big impact on my life" considering that they're living on Krakoa right now the fact that it wouldn't mess with your life doesn't mean it wouldn't mess with anyone's life
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Dec 14, 2021 00:17
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HOW it's moira's last life is still a big unknown though. Like are they going to depower her then she gets killed? Hm, then she gets ressurected again... at the very least it's probably not beyond Raven and Destiny to try destroy the whole resurrection setup, which involves killing the 5, the people acting as backups for the 5, etc etc etc
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Dec 14, 2021 03:39
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Synthbuttrange posted:HOW it's moira's last life is still a big unknown though. Like are they going to depower her then she gets killed?
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Dec 14, 2021 03:44
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Endless Mike posted:It's not her last life. Destiny told her in the one where she kills her that she has (some number I forget) and maybe another if she's lucky, but beyond that, she's going to die as a child before getting her powers, and that'll be it. She has at least one more past this one. IIRC Destiny's line was "ten lives... eleven if she makes the right choice." Moira is currently on life number ten.
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Dec 14, 2021 03:53
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Synthbuttrange posted:at the very least it's probably not beyond Raven and Destiny to try destroy the whole resurrection setup, which involves killing the 5, the people acting as backups for the 5, etc etc etc
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Dec 14, 2021 03:56
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:IIRC Destiny's line was "ten lives... eleven if she makes the right choice." Right and later she explained she has to die before her powers manifest. And since she’s in her 50s here, there’s one more life, but it won’t be of any major consequence presumably.
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Dec 14, 2021 03:58
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Hickman said he wasn't putting all the toys away this time or the easy fix to doing that was just a Moria life.
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Dec 14, 2021 04:02
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Rick posted:Hickman said he wasn't putting all the toys away this time or the easy fix to doing that was just a Moria life. Yeah at this point Krakoa is so enmeshed with he rest of the Marvel universe it would be hard to reset everything with killing Moira. Off the top of my head there's the FF/Franklin/Doom stuff, Avengers and the death of Wanda, the Shi'ar Imperial guard...writing that out doesn't make it seem like a lot but I'm sure it isn't insurmountable to reset everything but 2 years of Krakoa as a status quo for so much of the universe doesn't feel like it can just be handwaved away... Aside from a whole universe reset like after Hickman's Secret Wars, has there been anything like that kind of reset for Marvel? I know DC has done it a few times at least in the last 15 years.
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Dec 14, 2021 04:09
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Edmund Lava posted:Right and later she explained she has to die before her powers manifest. And since she’s in her 50s here, there’s one more life, but it won’t be of any major consequence presumably. Or Mystique and Destiny depower her, removing any chance of another Moira reset. It’s bound to happen because they’ll never pull the trigger on another reset. EDIT: Secret Wars didn’t even really reset the universe. It really only undid Hickman’s own stories. All your other Marvel comics are just as valid as they were before.
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Dec 14, 2021 05:51
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Synesthesian Fetish posted:Aside from a whole universe reset like after Hickman's Secret Wars, has there been anything like that kind of reset for Marvel? I know DC has done it a few times at least in the last 15 years. I guess you could point to Heroes Reborn in the '90s, which swept a lot of goofy Avengers poo poo under the rug: teenage Tony replacing the secretly evil adult Tony, Janet mutated into a wasp/human hybrid, Thor being made human somehow, the general dour tone of the book, etc. It didn't reset the entire continuity, though. Most of the time, Marvel just ignores the dumb poo poo instead of revising it out of existence. Even the 2015 Secret Wars wasn't a whole-hog reset, since everything before it still happened. There are only a handful of characters on Marvel's Earth, IIRC, who even realize something changed.
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Dec 14, 2021 06:00
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Wanderer posted:I guess you could point to Heroes Reborn in the '90s, which swept a lot of goofy Avengers poo poo under the rug: teenage Tony replacing the secretly evil adult Tony, Janet mutated into a wasp/human hybrid, Thor being made human somehow, the general dour tone of the book, etc. It didn't reset the entire continuity, though. I hadn't considered HR probably because not ALL of the heroes had been shifted to a pocket universe by Franklin, but I was also reading Spider-Man at the time and nothing changed for him (other than the loss of the avengers, etc.)
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Dec 14, 2021 06:10
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yeah, marvel isnt gonna reboot the 616 again if moira dies lol
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Dec 14, 2021 06:47
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100%. Marvel has never done a hard reboot - Secret Wars is as close as they came and even that only ever undid Hickman's Avengers. It's become a point of pride for them. It's not changing any time soon, so don't waste time worrying about it.
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Dec 14, 2021 08:06
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yeah, come to think of it secret wars is completely incompatible with the existence of moira.
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Dec 14, 2021 10:11
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Like what'll happen is that mutants will get their poo poo packed in and lose immortality, and probably the island, and the phase of storytelling where they are pretending their star is on the rise will be over. They won't just suddenly pretend it never happened.
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Dec 14, 2021 10:37
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What recent X-Title was it that had the earth exploding in the middle of the title, then going into the future, and had like Archangel’s kids come back in time to stop it from happening? I’m hoping that’s not what happens here either.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:03
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Wasn't that Uncanny Avengers?
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Dec 14, 2021 14:20
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:yeah, come to think of it secret wars is completely incompatible with the existence of moira. How? Moira resets the multiverse. Nothing in Secret Wars or any other alternate timelines or universes are immune to that. And they've confirmed this in Inferno 3,where we see the alternate history of Omega Sentinel. Again: everything we consider 616 and everything else still happened in Life X (as of Moira's birthdate) . The other lives aren't the equivalent of alternate timelines. They alternate multiverses or even bigger.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:32
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rantmo posted:Wasn't that Uncanny Avengers? Yeah. Three volumes: The Apocalypse Twins, Ragnarok Now, and Avenge the Earth.
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Dec 14, 2021 16:37
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And then the Apocalypse Twins story continued in Remender's X-Force, right? Sometimes I try to imagine what my life would be like if instead of factoids like this my brain could pull forth useful information and nothing happens.
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Dec 14, 2021 16:59
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A lot of Apocalypse/Life Seed/Death Seed stuff from UXF carried over into UA, but you got the order wrong. Apocalypse Twins were solely in Remender's Uncanny Avengers, which ran from 2012 through 2015 (the Apocalypse Twins stuff was wrapped up in 2014, prior to AXIS). Remender's Uncanny X-Force started in 2010 and wrapped up right around the time Uncanny Avengers launched.
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Dec 14, 2021 17:24
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rantmo posted:And then the Apocalypse Twins story continued in Remender's X-Force, right? Remender's Uncanny X-Force predates his Uncanny Avengers stories so you can feel better that the factoids you're pulling aren't exactly right!
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Dec 14, 2021 17:24
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danbanana posted:How? i would say the cosmology presented by Hickman himself previously, and by Al Ewing in his works is the largest barrier, as this version of the multiverse is the 8th in existence, and we know for a fact the 7th was the pre-secret wars multiverse. Which means either they're wrong or Moira doesn't have the effect she think she does if she's died 9 times
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Dec 14, 2021 17:26
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Retconning each of Maggie's face & heel turns as one Moira life? Can do!
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Dec 14, 2021 17:31
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danbanana posted:Remender's Uncanny X-Force predates his Uncanny Avengers stories so you can feel better that the factoids you're pulling aren't exactly right! Honestly, it does make me feel a little better and that might be worth unpacking in therapy one day.
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Dec 14, 2021 17:43
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