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In retrospect "the cause of the Ancient's creation magic going crazy was the Ancient's creation magic going crazy" made a lot of sense.
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Dec 12, 2021 01:00
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Also it's appropriate that the story begins with Meteor and ends with Meteion.
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Dec 12, 2021 01:10
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Fister Roboto posted:Also it's appropriate that the story begins with Meteor and ends with Meteion. Woah
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Dec 12, 2021 01:14
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Part of it is also that everything in the story is about Etheirys. Meteion was driven to despair by the suffering of other Stars, and accidentally triggered no few apocalypses herself. She's basically merged with all that interstellar anguish. But she is an antagonist from, and tied to, Etheirys and specifically your Warrior of Light. So it doesn't feel like a giant space flea Invasion From Without, and she has real dramatic weight tied to the setting itself. The cosmic backdrop remains just that, backdrop.
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Dec 12, 2021 01:15
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I know people are talking about the Zenos fight as a Lalafell but there are also scenes in the ending that are funny if you are big instead of small: 
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Dec 12, 2021 01:24
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I really enjoyed the last zone, getting to see all these alien civilizations in their (ambiguously defined) homeworlds was cool as hell. Are these just copies built from Meteion's impressions, a la Omega's simulations, or somehow connected to the real locations in space? Who knows! Probably a little of both. Also the Nekropolis was haunting in a way that most games don't really toy with, even when they do include the concept of alien civilizations: just a dusty ruin, with any trace of the former inhabitants or their culture long since faded away. Unlike all the other areas, this place was long dead even before Meteion got there. Also really liked the bit where your pals bring up the possibility that no small number of these dead worlds died specifically because Meteion caused a feedback loop of despair that they otherwise might have climbed back out of.
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Dec 12, 2021 01:28
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The ending is heavily flawed in that Meteion isn't Ancient-sized and instead the same relative size as when Emet-Selch had temporarily embiggened you.
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Dec 12, 2021 01:34
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Gruckles posted:The ending is heavily flawed in that Meteion isn't Ancient-sized and instead the same relative size as when Emet-Selch had temporarily embiggened you. she shrank, duh
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Dec 12, 2021 01:36
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Chillgamesh posted:I know people are talking about the Zenos fight as a Lalafell but there are also scenes in the ending that are funny if you are big instead of small: Personally it worked for me? Kinda emphasized how vulnerable Meteion was in the end. Now, the scene before the final dungeon where you clutch the Azem crystal loses some of its effect when the crystal clips into your gaunlet and it looks like you broke it and have just a piece left 
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Dec 12, 2021 01:41
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The only thing I didn't get that I wanted was a scene where you get to have the azem convocation mask while you used the crystal.
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Dec 12, 2021 01:44
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Gruckles posted:The ending is heavily flawed in that Meteion isn't Ancient-sized and instead the same relative size as when Emet-Selch had temporarily embiggened you. You weren't actually bigger, he shrank the entire universe except for you and Meteion.
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Dec 12, 2021 01:44
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Steelion posted:I really enjoyed the last zone, getting to see all these alien civilizations in their (ambiguously defined) homeworlds was cool as hell. Are these just copies built from Meteion's impressions, a la Omega's simulations, or somehow connected to the real locations in space? Who knows! Probably a little of both. Also the Nekropolis was haunting in a way that most games don't really toy with, even when they do include the concept of alien civilizations: just a dusty ruin, with any trace of the former inhabitants or their culture long since faded away. Unlike all the other areas, this place was long dead even before Meteion got there. The impression I got is that they weren't real until Thancred sacrificed himself, which coalesced the dynamis into physical form. Every time one of the Scions died, it altered the place physically, because it's a space so heavy with dynamis that you can change it with your emotions. Then, in the end, some combination of all that combined hope and maybe a bit of Emet and Hythlodaeus' creation magic made it all permanently real. Before you arrived, it was just a big swirling mass of dynamis and disembodied souls.
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Dec 12, 2021 01:54
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having the last however many hours leading up to the final zone being "muh nihilism" put me off a bit. that plus the 11th hour 30th minute secret villain reveal who controls a secret hidden power that's always been there. game still good though.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:04
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Zeruel posted:having the last however many hours leading up to the final zone being "muh nihilism" put me off a bit. that plus the 11th hour 30th minute secret villain reveal who controls a secret hidden power that's always been there. As talked about in thread the hidden power is more codification of a bunch of related poo poo that's been happening the whole time. It's basically just a mechanical basis to explain SHONEN BURNING SPIRIT and since that's kind of our shtick the villain being the same poo poo but in the other direction is perfect. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Dec 12, 2021 |
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Dec 12, 2021 02:05
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Just finished Zone 5 When I finished Shadowbringers I had a fear in me that the wrap-up expansion wasn't going to hit the same insanely high marks, especially when it came to antagonists. I feel like I was right, at least in terms of my personal tastes (which may be lacking, sure, if y'all love this stuff and feel I'm being uncharitable, power to you, better to enjoy things than not). So here we are, the 11th hour villain responsible for everything is: JRPG Philosophy 101 - Nihilism Essay Assignment (Double-Spaced, 4 Pages) #23324. "A-bloo bloo bloo, life has no meaning, therefore, I kill you. I am very smart." My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined. I didn't really like Zenos going into Endbringer, I found him to be all flash no substance, but you know what, I'll take an L on that one - at least "Likes to fight, like, a lot!" is more a more understandable motivation for your villain than "16 year old's conception of what nihilism is + forcing it on everyone". Amon, in his brief outro cinematic on the moon, got a better version of this exact same nihilism thing and it didn't suck nearly as much, since he clearly wasn't being framed as deriving his choices from rational thought, just his loyalty to Xande, personal ennui/depression and (presumably, I am assuming here) hate of the Unsundered when he learned the reason why Allag bit it. And hell, his last words were like "maybe I'm wrong, prove me wrong WoL!", which is at LEAST something... This is World of Warcraft "Good Character Who Is Corrupted"-tier poo poo, JRPG version, to me. ... Anyone who's done, please Yes/No me here: Do we get a definitive end? Do they at least get this out of their systems with Endwalker, meaning whatever comes next has to do a different thing, or do they set up the Linkin' Park Vocaloid Voyager Probes as something that will (or also) be dealt with in the next arc of expansions? Or is this a "need to wait for patch MSQ to find out" situation?
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Dec 12, 2021 02:08
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Zeruel posted:having the last however many hours leading up to the final zone being "muh nihilism" put me off a bit. that plus the 11th hour 30th minute secret villain reveal who controls a secret hidden power that's always been there. I really don't think this is at all an accurate description of what they did with Meteion. We knew something existed that caused the final days, and I think making it a sympathetic character and tying it into the game's overall themes was an excellent way to handle that!
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Dec 12, 2021 02:10
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KazigluBey posted:Anyone who's done, please Yes/No me here: Do we get a definitive end? Do they at least get this out of their systems with Endwalker, meaning whatever comes next has to do a different thing, or do they set up the Linkin' Park Vocaloid Voyager Probes as something that will (or also) be dealt with in the next arc of expansions? Or is this a "need to wait for patch MSQ to find out" situation? It fairly definitely ends this, yes. Not even in the patch, they're clear this is the end of the Ancients/Ascians/Final Days story and now we're getting 5 patches to set up the new story.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:14
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Part of what I don't like about early Elpis is that they initially lay on Meteion a little thick. Just because you're doing the 'endearingly naive child character' thing, doesn't mean you check every single box on that checklist. Granted, they pull out of that, Meteion is a major part of why later Elpis is actually very good, but the transparency of what they were trying to do with her early on kinda broke things for me.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:14
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Hellioning posted:It fairly definitely ends this, yes. Not even in the patch, they're clear this is the end of the Ancients/Ascians/Final Days story and now we're getting 5 patches to set up the new story. Well that's not totally true right? That Pandemonium thing is an Ascian thing
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Dec 12, 2021 02:18
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Hellioning posted:It fairly definitely ends this, yes. Not even in the patch, they're clear this is the end of the Ancients/Ascians/Final Days story and now we're getting 5 patches to set up the new story. I'd still bet they generally follow the same logic and that through 6.2/6.3 we're probably look at tail ends of this narrative.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:20
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Macaluso posted:Well that's not totally true right? That Pandemonium thing is an Ascian thing The msq is what they're talking about. The raid series is always wrapped up in the expansion patches so it's still contained in the end of all this saga stuff.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:21
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Regy Rusty posted:I really don't think this is at all an accurate description of what they did with Meteion. We knew something existed that caused the final days, and I think making it a sympathetic character and tying it into the game's overall themes was an excellent way to handle that! I will admit I'm being a little hyperbolic, but the whole zone meeting people being like "yeah we've been wiped out there's only a few of us left let us die(somewhat legitimate reason for nihilistic malaise)/the universe is going to die in a trillion trillion years why bother doing anything(not very legitimate)" got a bit tiresome. I'm probably just projecting because it's not like I haven't been there before! it's so easy to be nihilistic.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:22
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Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:I'd still bet they generally follow the same logic and that through 6.2/6.3 we're probably look at tail ends of this narrative. They've said in multiple past interviews that 6.0 is meant to be a definitive, final package, and that 6.1+ will be setting the table for an entirely new narrative direction. Like, you'll probably get some elements of all the Scions off doing their own thing woven in, but they've tied up every other loose end from pre-Endwalker. There's nothing left to wrap up.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:23
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KazigluBey posted:Just finished Zone 5 I would offer the following comment of how Zone 5 wraps up: Meiteon is responsible for the Final Days but I honestly don't think she's the true antagonist of the expansion, that's Hermes. Quests in Elpis lay out in the starkest possible terms that Meiteon is literally incapable of not feeling the strongest emotions of whoever is in closest proximity to her. This is the person that Hermes decides is the best option for a sentient space probe to go out and explore the universe without any kind of support because he himself is grappling with existential depression and looking for an external solution to his problems. That it completely blows up in everyone's faces is more his fault then Meiteon. This is all feeding into a greater thematic argument that EW makes in general which revolves around perseverance in the face of utter nihilistic despair, which has already been highlighted in Garlemald, Thavnair, and even previous expansions. It'll carry forward from this point on.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:23
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Zeruel posted:I will admit I'm being a little hyperbolic, but the whole zone meeting people being like "yeah we've been wiped out there's only a few of us left let us die(somewhat legitimate reason for nihilistic malaise)/the universe is going to die in a trillion trillion years why bother doing anything(not very legitimate)" got a bit tiresome. I'm probably just projecting because it's not like I haven't been there before! it's so easy to be nihilistic. I feel like you didn't really understand that the entire story is about what makes life worth living if the final zone being like that bugged you. Like..It needed to be.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:26
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6.1 had better be a long form version of all the other expansions' denouements, where you go around to visit all the people you've encountered and just check in on how they're doing. A grand tour of Etheirys. e: also Endsinger EX is gonna be extremely good.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:27
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Meiteron posted:I would offer the following comment of how Zone 5 wraps up: Meiteon is responsible for the Final Days but I honestly don't think she's the true antagonist of the expansion, that's Hermes. Quests in Elpis lay out in the starkest possible terms that Meiteon is literally incapable of not feeling the strongest emotions of whoever is in closest proximity to her. This is the person that Hermes decides is the best option for a sentient space probe to go out and explore the universe without any kind of support because he himself is grappling with existential depression and looking for an external solution to his problems. That it completely blows up in everyone's faces is more his fault then Meiteon. More broadly, there really isn't a way to attach a realistic motivation to a villain for something like "destroying the world," because no one would actually want to do that in real life. She's a metaphorical proxy for despair and nihilism itself, but it gives more context and creates more tragedy than if the prime mover had been, like, an eternally recurring nihilistic space presence or whatever. It's necessarily going to be abstract and high concept.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:29
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Meiteron posted:I would offer the following comment of how Zone 5 wraps up: Meiteon is responsible for the Final Days but I honestly don't think she's the true antagonist of the expansion, that's Hermes. Quests in Elpis lay out in the starkest possible terms that Meiteon is literally incapable of not feeling the strongest emotions of whoever is in closest proximity to her. This is the person that Hermes decides is the best option for a sentient space probe to go out and explore the universe without any kind of support because he himself is grappling with existential depression and looking for an external solution to his problems. That it completely blows up in everyone's faces is more his fault then Meiteon. OK, like, I can dig your points re: Meiteon, but not Hermes, because my experience in Elpis with Hermes was "See Hermes, you're not the only one who's sad, other people are sad too." *1 hour later* "Well I guess all other worlds are dead better accept that the meaning of life is death and lhelp the Vocaloids kills us all". When the game tries to sell me that Amon, a character who we're shown was already not doing great in the past, wants to kill himself and take everyone with him, in a process that lasted centuries to complete, I bought it. It felt like a natural flow for the character on top of his loyalty to Xande. When the game tries to sell me on Hermes going from someone struggling with animal conservation and low mood to someone nodding sagely at Idiot's Guide to Nietzsche in the span of less than a day in game, I cringe and fervently wish we were in the lame but better timeline where the final antagonist was Zenos mindjacking Hydaelyn or something equally lame but not as cringe inducing to me.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:32
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I feel like you didn't really understand that the entire story is about what makes life worth living if the final zone being like that bugged you. Like..It needed to be. Yeah, fair enough.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:33
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KazigluBey posted:
He is shown to be an abnormally empathetic and lonely individual who mourns the death of his would-be predecessor (in a society where this is clearly a heterodox idea), flies into a tearful rage over having to kill what were clearly monstrous predators, and so abhors the company of his fellow man that he delves into obscure esoterica and constructs a legion of empathic, autonomous drones to reach out to the very stars themselves to find answers that he's failing to find on his own world. It's pretty believable that a guy so clearly on the edge would have a breakdown when his last, desperate attempt to find a universal meaning that would justify how he feels spectacularly explodes in his face.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:39
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Hermes was incredibly vulnerable to Meteion's message of despair. Dude needed therapy more than anything. Even though he let her escape he still included himself in the memory wipe to ensure that he'd spend the rest of his life working with his friends to stop what she was bringing. Even still he had enough hope they would find a different answer that he chose not to just die there and then like Meteion would have proposed.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:44
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Vermain posted:He is shown to be an abnormally empathetic and lonely individual who mourns the death of his would-be predecessor (in a society where this is clearly a heterodox idea), flies into a tearful rage over having to kill what were clearly monstrous predators, and so abhors the company of his fellow man that he delves into obscure esoterica and constructs a legion of empathic, autonomous drones to reach out to the very stars themselves to find answers that he's failing to find on his own world. It's pretty believable that a guy so clearly on the edge would have a breakdown when his last, desperate attempt to find a universal meaning that would justify how he feels spectacularly explodes in his face. Right, but, hear me out on this one: There is a massive, galaxy-sized gulf between "have a breakdown" and "decide to enact global omnicide". I can understand and buy #1, I cannot #2. Hell this JRPG trope of Ninilism = Omnicide has always rubbed me the wrong way because the far more relatable and realistic relationship humans have with soul-crushing despair isn't Doing The Big Murder, it's suicide. I've never seen this trope outside of JRPGs, too, for whatever reason. At least here isn't not an insufferable character framed as being smart & cool, so they get points for not doing the full monty, but still...
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Dec 12, 2021 02:45
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KazigluBey posted:
Hermes didn't shift suddenly. He shifted when he had what amounts to the exact worst possible outcome for his personal issues. Like he is someone who already feels pain and loss over death to a significant degree and he was reaching out for help that he couldn't find in his own world and got the JRPG equivalent of "lol, kill yourself" in response. It wasn't that he suddenly shifted but that the worst possible outcome came true for him. Like maybe it's because I struggle with depression myself but if I was having a low day and then I found out everything my anxiety and depression told me was as close to objectively true as possible I would probably not handle it well and that doesn't involve galactic omnicide. KazigluBey posted:
He wasn't the one who enacted global omnicide. He didn't want to destroy the world, he wanted proof that what the Endsinger was saying wasn't true. It is a terrible extremely bad awful decision but he even states part of why he wants to erase his memory is so he can work against it 'fairly.' It's still a horrible crime but it's a far cry from trying to murder everyone. Fandaniel/Amon ended up that way because he was left with the indelible memories of what he did over countless years and countless lives and it broke him. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Dec 12, 2021 |
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Dec 12, 2021 02:45
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Vermain posted:More broadly, there really isn't a way to attach a realistic motivation to a villain for something like "destroying the world," because no one would actually want to do that in real life. She's a metaphorical proxy for despair and nihilism itself, but it gives more context and creates more tragedy than if the prime mover had been, like, an eternally recurring nihilistic space presence or whatever. It's necessarily going to be abstract and high concept. Yea, I'm not sure why some people seem to think there needs to be a 'realistic' path and all, there is no 'realistic' journey to 'I'm going to end the entire universe' because...that's not something a real person does. It's something a cartoon space man like Hermes does because he has an inhuman mind that's been warped by ages of sorrow and pain and Meteion does because she's a literal magic bird girl construct of pure emotion who's very literal extreme empathy caused her to feel countless civilization's pain and anguish. These aren't...people...they're not real, not just in the literal 'this is a video game' sense but even in universe these aren't 'real people' like the scions and all. There is no realistic cause, it's just an inhuman amount of pain and suffering becoming too much to bear that happens to take the form of a sweet bird girl.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:46
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KazigluBey posted:
Because "committing suicide" is both a heavy thematic topic to treat with, and because it doesn't leave much to fight back against. Again: the point of having villains that fall into nihilistic despair is to allow them to embody the concept of nihilism to give the protagonists of the story something tangible to fight against. Fighting a monster of nihilism with swords and spells is a metaphorical proxy for the (often daily) fight that people go through in trying to push back the monsters of their psyche, and, in stories like this, help to create catharsis via triumph. This is something that fantasy stories do uniquely well: they reify abstract ideas and struggles into a physical form that's clear and tangible.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:51
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Meteions turn felt a little out there for me, but I could accept it since she's basically a person made up of emotions and made to perfectly feel others' emotions. That was only true up to the level 90 dungeon. When I got there I could completely understand how she could come to those conclusions being up there basically alone and seeing this poo poo over and over again.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:53
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Finished the game, and it was a roller coaster of being totally hype and pissed off (not in a fun way). When you get to the endgame, there is no point with Zenos that wouldn't be better without Zenos. Showing up for the final boss? Make it Midgardstormr with optional Omega so you have the survivors of three worlds she's killed/trying to kill fighting for hope. His "I won't follow if you walk away" fight that the game then forces you to agree to? Let the player walk away and leave him there at the end, his monologue afterward would fit just fine. Nothing this guy does has earned giving him the end he wants. And then it's yet another overly-long and repetitive battle that could be done in half the time. This is not MGS4 and that is not Ocelot, he does not get this. Worse. Than. Necron.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:56
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Meteions turn felt a little out there for me, but I could accept it since she's basically a person made up of emotions and made to perfectly feel others' emotions. That was only true up to the level 90 dungeon. When I got there I could completely understand how she could come to those conclusions being up there basically alone and seeing this poo poo over and over again. Yea the 90 dungeon is fantastic at driving in 'this is what she saw constantly, forever, star after star, this is all she had to 'comfort' her as she sat alone in the darkest deepest part of space'. The guy after the second boss standing alone at the console saying 'finally, I killed them all' or whatever was genuinely rough.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:57
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Bruceski posted:Finished the game, and it was a roller coaster of being totally hype and pissed off (not in a fun way). When you get to the endgame, there is no point with Zenos that wouldn't be better without Zenos. Showing up for the final boss? Make it Midgardstormr with optional Omega so you have the survivors of three worlds she's killed/trying to kill fighting for hope. His "I won't follow if you walk away" fight that the game then forces you to agree to? Let the player walk away and leave him there at the end, his monologue afterward would fit just fine. Nothing this guy does has earned giving him the end he wants. It really seems to be love or hate and I kind of realize why I don't like it at all. My favorite parts of FFXIV aren't just the fights but all the other things between them. Crafting and helping people and seeing new places and etc. And Zenos doesn't embody any of those aspects so the "your dark self" parts fall flat because no I am perfectly fine turning down a fight if I'm not interested in it/if there is a non-violent solution.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:58
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Bruceski posted:Finished the game, and it was a roller coaster of being totally hype and pissed off (not in a fun way). When you get to the endgame, there is no point with Zenos that wouldn't be better without Zenos. Showing up for the final boss? Make it Midgardstormr with optional Omega so you have the survivors of three worlds she's killed/trying to kill fighting for hope. His "I won't follow if you walk away" fight that the game then forces you to agree to? Let the player walk away and leave him there at the end, his monologue afterward would fit just fine. Nothing this guy does has earned giving him the end he wants. He doesn't even really get what he wants though. In the end he dies disappointed and empty. There's no reasonable way the warrior of light could or should have left him alive. I think they used him brilliantly and I've never been a huge Zenos fan.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:58
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