|
That and they made a very pretty field of flowers, and Meteion really likes flowers so she had to let it stand. edit: Actually I'm trying to remember, do they explicitly say they stabilized it with their aether or are the flowers staying white indicative that there's enough hope to keep the hope constructs around and stable?
TGLT fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Dec 13, 2021 |
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 14:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 09:22 |
|
|
I like Venat but don't care for Hydaelyn. To me, Venat is friend you can go on adventures with whereas Hydaelyn is a mom who breaks your arm while screaming it's for your own good. Or to be more charitable: bullies you in order to toughen you up. I'll echo what some other people here have stated. It feels like a large part of Endwalker is saying that suffering is a good thing. Yes, suffering is a part of the world, but there should be, IMO, a constant effort to minimize it. Endwalker tell us that striving for that goal--or even achieving it-- is bad and will lead to the break down of your society.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 14:37
|
|
|
The discussions about the Scions and events in UT are helping put to bed some of my own misgivings about the zone. But while I feel moderately better about that, I do hate that all the events missed for me personally as hard as they possibly could have. While still in the midst of it, everything happening didn't remotely feel real or earned. To me it felt like the game was attempting cheap gut punches because everyone memed about Ishikawa being good at that sort of thing. I understand, now, what they were going for. But it still doesn't change the fact that personally the expansion ended on a double whammy of "meh" - the events in UT and Meteion adopting Standard JRPG Villain Motivation #001 Subtype 2. At least the character writing was a shining beacon of exactly what I wanted. The scene with Forchenault embracing his kids had me ugly crying for an hour because of my own dad's recent death. Even thinking about it is making me misty eyed.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 14:37
|
|
|
The tension in the final zone isn’t about whether or not your friends can be brought back, it’s about if the ones remaining can keep going as their friends are picked off one by one, and accepting their hopes for the future and letting them carry you forward. Meteion’s counter-argument to “we can overcome despair by working together” was that everyone always had that hope until they lost everyone close to them. The scions prove her wrong by showing that even when they’re gone the people we love can still give us strength.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 14:43
|
|
|
Ither posted:Yes, suffering is a part of the world, but there should be, IMO, a constant effort to minimize it. Endwalker tell us that striving for that goal--or even achieving it-- is bad and will lead to the break down of your society. I don't think this is quite true in the full context. Endwalker also celebrates the work the heroes and the people of Eorzea in general do in coming together to help one another, for example in Garlemald. The people of Etheirys come together throughout FFXIV, Endwalker included, to minimize each others' suffering and to build a better world. Endwalker also takes the time to remind us of some successes on this front, like the newly-achieved peace with the tribal peoples Eorzea used to war with, or the peace between Ishgard and dragons. I think it's sort of contrasting realistic attempts to minimize suffering--to work together to forge peace and build a better world--with the idea that you can just magic yourself into a perfect world. As I've put it in this thread before, it's sort of like, "pining for a perfect world gets in the way of building a better world," or something like that. Even the societies that achieved apparent lack of suffering didn't so much die out because of that. Meteion's a bit of an unreliable narrator there. The Ea didn't die out because they got too perfect and succumbed to lack-of-suffering ennui; instead, they died out because they became obsessed with permanence and couldn't deal with the revelation that the entire universe is impermanent no matter what they do. (Notice how the Scions, mortal as they are, can kinda just take that revelation in stride, even though the Ea were like "this knowledge will destroy you!!") The last society we see in the Dead Ends, too, Meteion doesn't tell us the full story of. It wasn't that they made too nice of a world, but that they destroyed so much to achieve it that ultimately undercut their perfection. Endwalker's deal is that a truly perfect world isn't possible, but that a better one is. I won't pretend it delivers that message perfectly--it absolutely has some stumbles along the way--but I think it mostly gets there. Harrow fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Dec 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 14:45
|
|
|
Ither posted:Yes, suffering is a part of the world, but there should be, IMO, a constant effort to minimize it. Endwalker tell us that striving for that goal--or even achieving it-- is bad and will lead to the break down of your society. Endwalker does not tell us this!
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 14:45
|
|
|
Yeah that cutscene opens with Meteion saying despair reigns here and that our hope can't reach her. Emet and Hyth ask you to imagine what would prove her wrong, then make the flowers and point to their continued existence as proof that Thule's no longer a place ruled solely by despair. I don't think the intended takeaway is they did some mechanical magic thing, but that we've started to reach Meteion and in a place where emotions rule that means we get to have a chat with her big sister-self. Also both Y'sthola's and Urianger's are good examples of what I meant that it felt like they wanted to tease that with the zone's story, although it's probably fair to say the intent might have been they were surprised to be back so soon or just happy things were going well instead of being surprised they were back at all. Ither posted:Yes, suffering is a part of the world, but there should be, IMO, a constant effort to minimize it. Endwalker tell us that striving for that goal--or even achieving it-- is bad and will lead to the break down of your society. It's not saying it's bad. It's saying it's impossible to eradicate it. Trying to do so will destroy what makes life worth living. Like for a society to eradicate conflict would require it destroying anything "flawed" or "imperfect." What happens if I fall in love with some one but they don't love me back? Minor or not, that's a form of suffering and conflict. The "perfect" societies in this story would "solve" this by either eradicating some one or the ability to love like that. TGLT fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Dec 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 14:48
|
|
|
Ither posted:Yes, suffering is a part of the world, but there should be, IMO, a constant effort to minimize it. Endwalker tell us that striving for that goal--or even achieving it-- is bad and will lead to the break down of your society. If that were the case it’d be very weird that the game ends with the Scions all setting out on new journeys to try to keep making the world a better place instead of, I dunno, moving to the suburbs or something.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 14:49
|
|
|
TGLT posted:Yeah that cutscene opens with Meteion saying despair reigns here and that our hope can't reach her. Emet and Hyth ask you to imagine what would prove her wrong, then make the flowers and point to their continued existence as proof that Thule's no longer a place ruled solely by despair. I don't think the intended takeaway is they did some mechanical magic thing, but that we've started to reach Meteion and in a place where emotions rule that means we get to have a chat with her big sister-self. They definitely use creation magick to make the flowers--they say that specifically in the dialogue--but yeah the flowers aren't the path forward themselves. The credit there goes to the WoL, who had to hold in their mind what Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus would manifest with their magick and chose a field of Elpis flowers. The hope they represent is what causes Meteion's overwhelming despair to show cracks, just enough that the way to the Dead Ends opens.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 14:51
|
|
|
I mean yes they use creation magic, I'm just saying they don't seem to have stabilized Ultima Thule as was being suggested. Instead they use the flowers as proof the place is no longer just hopelessness no matter what Meteion says. Kind of like telling a depressed person they're not as hopeless as they think they are, or even want to be. edit: I mean, unless there's some post-MSQ thing I'm unaware of. TGLT fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Dec 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 14:54
|
|
|
Harrow posted:The last society we see in the Dead Ends, too, Meteion doesn't tell us the full story of. It wasn't that they made too nice of a world, but that they destroyed so much to achieve it that ultimately undercut their perfection. Eh, for me the problem with that society as presented didn't really feel like it was because of the cost they paid for perfection. It was that the creators of Ra-La achieved "perfection" and then decided that if there is nothing to strive for it's better to die. The issue isn't "they were perfect and thus wished to die", it was akin to the Omicrons in that they couldn't see anything to do because they focused on perfection and decided to kill themselves instead of pursuing another goal. Like, reaching to other civilizations or creating life in another planets. Also Meteion 100% got the idea of her plan to prevent life from them, given Ra-La is basically a primal created to do that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 15:10
|
|
|
The presence of the pure white Elpis flowers indicates there is enough ambient hope to maintain the state of Ultima Thule as-is without your friends' essences needing to fight for it. Emet even says as much (and needles you about not getting the implications). Hythlodaeus: Drawing upon the hopes of your comrades, we will make for you a new path. Emet-Selch: What form said path takes depends on you. So focus─focus and envision that which rejects the claim that you cannot attain your goal! Emet-Selch: These Elpis blooms serve as proof that this realm is not utterly devoid of hope. No more can you deny its power. No more is yours the dominion of despair. Emet-Selch: In case the practical implications were lost on you, your comrades no longer need fight their fight. Emet-Selch: So, go on. Call them back to your side.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 15:14
|
|
|
When Meteion is giving her full report she mentions a society that sought to eradicate all conflict only realize there was no joy left to be had in life when they were done. I think the Ra-La society is intended to be that one. Certainly they could have tried to rekindle that spark, but like the Ea and Omicrons they probably had forgotten how and chose to die instead.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 15:15
|
|
|
Ither posted:Yes, suffering is a part of the world, but there should be, IMO, a constant effort to minimize it. Endwalker tell us that striving for that goal--or even achieving it-- is bad and will lead to the break down of your society. I kind of was tugging at my collar a bit over the whole "suffering is necessary" lines in Elpis and the back half of Labyrinthos but it's pretty obvious by the end that they're not valorizing adversity for its own sake and talking about how noble it is to soldier on through pain, just saying that challenge is what makes victory sweet, and that entropy comes for everyone eventually even if you were to achieve utopia somehow. It's not "keep your head down and carry on", it's "death is certain and you must both accept and fight it anyway".
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 15:16
|
|
|
Harrow posted:The last society we see in the Dead Ends, too, Meteion doesn't tell us the full story of. It wasn't that they made too nice of a world, but that they destroyed so much to achieve it that ultimately undercut their perfection. Where is this said? Maybe I missed something. TGLT posted:It's not saying it's bad. It's saying it's impossible to eradicate it. Trying to do so will destroy what makes life worth living. Like for a society to eradicate conflict would require it destroying anything "flawed" or "imperfect." What happens if I fall in love with some one but they don't love me back? Minor or not, that's a form of suffering and conflict. The "perfect" societies in this story would "solve" this by either eradicating some one or the ability to love like that. For a game that celebrates doing the impossible, it seems off for the line in the sand to be the eradication of suffering. What if you fall in love with someone who doesn't love you? Travel to a timeline where they do love you. We're talking about civilizations with the ability the destroy planets or resurrect the dead. At that point sadness seems like a lack of imagination. Augus posted:If that were the case it’d be very weird that the game ends with the Scions all setting out on new journeys to try to keep making the world a better place instead of, I dunno, moving to the suburbs or something. I agree it is very weird. Some parts of the game celebrate progress. Other parts, to me, say you can only progress so much. Attempting to minimize suffering below a certain point invites doom. That's what I disagree with.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 15:42
|
|
|
Ither posted:Where is this said? Maybe I missed something. You have to look down while you're in that zone to see the destroyed world their heaven is floating above. But also, I think GiantRockFromSpace's read is probably more accurate than mine there, too. Ither posted:Other parts, to me, say you can only progress so much. Attempting to minimize suffering below a certain point invites doom. That's what I disagree with. Again, though, look at all the societies we've seen that died out. None of them actually achieved "minimizing suffering below a certain point"--instead, they all ran into the fact that it was impossible to eradicate suffering and the ones that died out couldn't deal with that. The Ea had achieved immortality and became certain they and their world would be permanent, only to find out that it wasn't, and could never be, for reasons outside of anyone's control. The dragons who stayed on their home world couldn't believe that there could ever be life and happiness on the other side of conflict, but we know they're wrong because we've seen what Midgardsormr achieved in bringing his brood to Etheirys. The Omicron, like the last part of the Dead Ends, became so laser-focused on one goal that they couldn't see beyond that to everything else life had to offer once they achieved it. It's not that the societies achieved perfection and therefore died--it's that they never actually achieved it, and in some cases it was an inability to deal with the continued existence of suffering, or conflict, or mortality, or just needing to find your own meaning that broke them. Hermes's whole arc in Elpis is this in microcosm: the whole reason he creates the Meteia is to be told the "right" reason for living in the face of eventual death because he doesn't accept the one his society seems to believe in and can't find one for himself. The story is never saying "you literally need to suffer or you will die," or that you shouldn't try to minimize suffering. It's saying "suffering, conflict, and death will never truly be eradicated but you should live, find meaning in life, and strive for a better world anyway." Hell, Meteion basically spells it out entirely in her monologue after the final trial. She feels both the pain and the happiness that the Warrior of Light has experienced on their journey and remarks that the happiness she sought was on Etheirys the whole time, to which the Warrior of Light can tell her it's there because we all built it together. Harrow fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Dec 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 15:54
|
|
|
it's "suffering is unavoidable and you have to be able to deal with it and not ignore it or paper over it". none of the utopias shown were free of suffering
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 15:55
|
|
|
Ither posted:For a game that celebrates doing the impossible, it seems off for the line in the sand to be the eradication of suffering. Timelines in this game don't exist until they're explicitly created, and even if you could go back and make this person a new person who loves you, it takes a lot of power to do so. Sending some one back in time is what finally did in Eldiibus. Nor would you have an eternity of joy. This game universe has the same issue with heat death that our own universe will eventually suffer. You would still some day have to face death. And more importantly, Etheirys isn't real. This game isn't about speculating about how awesome it would be if we had magic, it's trying to talk about an actual real philosophical issue that people have to grapple with in their regular non-magic non-time hopping lives. No one can eradicate all suffering. We see a bunch of people - our character included - do what they can to make the world better and the game celebrates those acts, but it also wants the player to understand that you have to find a way to live with suffering because you can never escape it completely. Also found the report. They "discarded all things that gave rise to sorrow" and "found joy lost its savor in the absence of sorrow." Now while that could be read as joy needs misery, I think the "discarded all things" is pretty clearly the root of their problem especially in light of everything else in the story. edit: They were doing what the Amaurotines did. They were ironing out the "flaws" by destroying them. They were papering over the suffering they created by doing so with a commitment to a nebulously defined "perfection" which could never include everyone. Also if anyone else is curious, the reports for the Ea, the unnamed civilization, the plague society, and judgement day. Not sure which reports lines up best with the dragons and the omicrons, if any since they didn't really need foreshadowing from Meteion. TGLT fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Dec 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 15:56
|
|
|
Farg posted:it's "suffering is unavoidable and you have to be able to deal with it and not ignore it or paper over it". Not even Amaurot. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 15:57
|
|
|
For the last civ in the Dead Ends, I might be wrong but I got the impression from one of the notes that Meteion landing and asking them the meaning of life helped trigger their destruction, so maybe she helped harsh their mellow with her bad vibes
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:03
|
|
|
Yeah, Meteion was definitely the unwitting catalyst to some of the destructions she mentions, even before she formulated her "everything sucks so let's just end the universe about it" thesis.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:06
|
|
|
I gotta hand my "most unexpected" award to "fun character moment for Garuda and Susano"
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:12
|
|
|
I only went back 10 pages or so, so maybe people discussed it earlier and I missed it, bit I wanted to say that I really enjoyed Hermes as a character. I've seen people be like "well he had depression", which is probably true, but I think that undersells his reaction to what I consider genuine neglect or abuse to the Amaurotine creations. The scene where he says that animals don't find death beautiful/meaningful and only know it as extreme pain and fear really hit me, both as an animal person and a godless death-fearing person. I don't think that the game really needed to explore that more than it did, it stood well on its own, I just wanted to mention it in case people glossed over it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:12
|
|
|
I don't think she asked the Ra-La folks for an answer and that hastened their self-termination. I think they were in the process of that already when she got there. The only one where the report makes a direct connection between her showing up and the survivors committing suicide is the deity who killed their people then committed suicide, presumably out of guilt or shame. I don't think she has a hand in speeding up any civilization's end until after she starts with the whole song of oblivion thing.Countblanc posted:I only went back 10 pages or so, so maybe people discussed it earlier and I missed it, bit I wanted to say that I really enjoyed Hermes as a character. I've seen people be like "well he had depression", which is probably true, but I think that undersells his reaction to what I consider genuine neglect or abuse to the Amaurotine creations. The scene where he says that animals don't find death beautiful/meaningful and only know it as extreme pain and fear really hit me, both as an animal person and a godless death-fearing person. I don't think that the game really needed to explore that more than it did, it stood well on its own, I just wanted to mention it in case people glossed over it. My favorite bit about Hermes is that he was right about hearing out the report in full. He shouldn't have let Meteion leave, but he was absolutely right that the Amaurotines needed to hear what Meteion was saying and grapple with it otherwise they'd have all ended the same way. TGLT fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Dec 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:12
|
|
|
Like the whole point of the expansion is captured in the lines from the random ancients in the Venat scene: "There must be a way to restore things to the way they were! To restore the perfect paradise we once had!" "It will be ours again! A world free of sorrow!" But Venat says, and we saw that this was never the case! Their perfect world was not free from sorrow and never could be. Trying to sacrifice all the new life on the planet to return to a perceived paradise was pointless. Venat wanted to give the new world a chance instead and so proceeded with the sundering. You cannot eliminate sorrow entirely, and trying to do that, even if it means doing other horrible things to get there, is what the game is speaking out against. We see that play out on Etheirys and on many of the other worlds Meteion explores. The game's thesis isn't that suffering is good or "necessary" but that it just is and we should deal with it as it comes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:14
|
|
|
Speculating about the future: It seems likely that at least some of the Scions will stop being major fixtures in the story going forward, at least for a while. That leaves us with the need for new NPC buddies for our adventuring party. Do you think any of the new characters we met in Endwalker might step up for a bigger role like that going forward? As much as I'd like to see more Erenville he didn't strike me as a fighter, but what about Jullus? He could maybe be a new tank Trust with a Garlean-themed Gunbreaker variant set of skills, maybe. Countblanc posted:I only went back 10 pages or so, so maybe people discussed it earlier and I missed it, bit I wanted to say that I really enjoyed Hermes as a character. I've seen people be like "well he had depression", which is probably true, but I think that undersells his reaction to what I consider genuine neglect or abuse to the Amaurotine creations. The scene where he says that animals don't find death beautiful/meaningful and only know it as extreme pain and fear really hit me, both as an animal person and a godless death-fearing person. I don't think that the game really needed to explore that more than it did, it stood well on its own, I just wanted to mention it in case people glossed over it. During the whole Elpis section I just kept thinking "how the gently caress did this game make me feel heartbroken for loving Fandaniel"
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:18
|
|
|
A fun fact is all the area names in Ultima Thule and Dead Ends are named Ostrakon Number in greek, so one can assume they are numbered in order met. So we know the order is that report civ->the Omicrons->the Plenty->the Dragonstar; the Ea is the earliest civ we have info of and that the very first civ she found is the cafe one where we have no records of them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:21
|
|
|
Ither posted:I like Venat but don't care for Hydaelyn. ...I have no idea what story you were reading, but I feel like it wasn't what anyone else was reading. Endwalker's ideal on suffering was very clearly stated, in the actual text: yeah, sometimes bad poo poo happens, and it sucks. But what we have to do is keep moving, pick ourselves and each other back up and keep going, no matter how hard it is (Thavnair). We can't just give up and throw in the towel because keeping on is too hard or scary (the dragons and the Ea), and we can't just wait for a greater authority to push on for us (the Omicrons). But on the other end, we can't just plug our ears and pretend like nothing bad ever happened and that things can go back to what we called normal (the Ancients themselves). No matter how impossible it may seem, we move on. And I have no idea why you read Hydaelyn as abusive. Is it because she obliged us with the contractually obligated God Fight? Because I feel like the entire expansion was beating me over the head with 'Hydaelyn Really Is Good Stop Thinking She's Secretly Evil You Shmucks' so much I almost got tired of it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:25
|
|
|
Countblanc posted:I only went back 10 pages or so, so maybe people discussed it earlier and I missed it, bit I wanted to say that I really enjoyed Hermes as a character. I've seen people be like "well he had depression", which is probably true, but I think that undersells his reaction to what I consider genuine neglect or abuse to the Amaurotine creations. The scene where he says that animals don't find death beautiful/meaningful and only know it as extreme pain and fear really hit me, both as an animal person and a godless death-fearing person. I don't think that the game really needed to explore that more than it did, it stood well on its own, I just wanted to mention it in case people glossed over it. Hermes was right about some stuff! It was painful seeing him try to express this to other Ancients only for them to really not get that he was going through something and needed more than his emotional support bird daughter
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:26
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:And I have no idea why you read Hydaelyn as abusive. Is it because she obliged us with the contractually obligated God Fight?= Y'know, you really gotta admire the WoL's commitment to killing gods. Even their own god isn't safe! (yes I know Hydaelyn was already dying and also died willingly because her purpose was fulfilled but that gets in the way of the joke so I'm ignoring it for the sake of this post)
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:29
|
|
|
I think Venat appointing herself God and proclaiming judgement on mankind was a little open to question, personally. Perhaps it was the only way forward but her and Emet-Selch are both in the mud together doing mass extinctions for their greater goods
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:29
|
|
|
multijoe posted:I think Venat appointing herself God and proclaiming judgement on mankind was a little open to question, personally. Perhaps it was the only way forward but her and Emet-Selch are both in the mud together doing mass extinctions for their greater goods I don't think she would disagree with that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:30
|
|
|
Yeah she acknowledges she's done a lot of harm to people that shouldn't be forgotten. But also Etheirys gets one shot at Meteion or escape, need to have a big powerful crystal mom-god to test if the former is even a real option before they throw away the latter.Cleretic posted:And I have no idea why you read Hydaelyn as abusive. Is it because she obliged us with the contractually obligated God Fight? Because I feel like the entire expansion was beating me over the head with 'Hydaelyn Really Is Good Stop Thinking She's Secretly Evil You Shmucks' so much I almost got tired of it. I think that reading is from her knowingly creating a world with a lot more suffering in it - y'know the dramatic walk through tragedy. But yeah it does miss her actual point there, that the Amaurotines are deluding themselves and need to face reality or they won't survive it. Sundering is meant to be either opening their eyes to that truth, or otherwise giving a new way of life that can stand up to Meteion a chance. However literally/metaphorically you want to read into her action.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:32
|
|
|
Countblanc posted:I only went back 10 pages or so, so maybe people discussed it earlier and I missed it, bit I wanted to say that I really enjoyed Hermes as a character. I've seen people be like "well he had depression", which is probably true, but I think that undersells his reaction to what I consider genuine neglect or abuse to the Amaurotine creations. The scene where he says that animals don't find death beautiful/meaningful and only know it as extreme pain and fear really hit me, both as an animal person and a godless death-fearing person. I don't think that the game really needed to explore that more than it did, it stood well on its own, I just wanted to mention it in case people glossed over it. I really enjoyed Hermes and that particular scene a lot - particularly, it contrasted incredibly painfully (in a good way) with Fandaniel's monologue as he killed himself as Zodiark.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:40
|
|
|
Like I said, I don't think it's what the writers strictly intended, but I think enough people are independently feeling weird about the way the story lands the message about suffering that it's fair to say they goofed a little bit. The Venat stuff, the "don't try to make society perfect" Loporrit monologue, the Ea, the end of the final dungeon, various other smaller moments - you can argue the case for all of them not being meant that way, but all together they start to feel a little strange if you have a certain outlook on things. For me, a lot of my baggage about it probably comes from my experiences with abuse and chronic pain as a kid. Without blabbering on about it, it's very difficult for me to accept a plot point where making everyone's life much more painful and worse so they'll grow in some critical way as wholesome and justified, at least to the degree the story wants me to.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:44
|
|
|
PoorWeather posted:Like I said, I don't think it's what the writers strictly intended, but I think enough people are independently feeling weird about the way the story lands the message about suffering that it's fair to say they goofed a little bit. The Venat stuff, the "don't try to make society perfect" Loporrit monologue, the Ea, the end of the final dungeon, various other smaller moments - you can argue the case for all of them not being meant that way, but all together they start to feel a little strange if you have a certain outlook on things. It's not about growth, it's that eliminating suffering is literally impossible. The characters do try to minimize suffering and that's lauded, but the other societies fail because they monomaniacally rearrange everything about their lives and society in pursuit of getting rid of a natural part of existence.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:46
|
|
|
Y'know there's one loose thread that I'm curious about - I don't think we ever see purple rock candy mountain again. I guess the idea is it and all the presumably Amaurotine souls in it fade when Zodiark dies, but it'd have been nice for it to show up again as a nod to the eventual fate of blue rock candy mountain. Maybe as the backdrop to the Zodiark fight or something.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 16:49
|
|
|
TGLT posted:Y'know there's one loose thread that I'm curious about - I don't think we ever see purple rock candy mountain again. I guess the idea is it and all the presumably Amaurotine souls in it fade when Zodiark dies, but it'd have been nice for it to show up again as a nod to the eventual fate of blue rock candy mountain. Maybe as the backdrop to the Zodiark fight or something. The Fathercrystal, for lack of a better term, is one of those dangling threads. I could see us exploring the fallout of these and the remainder of the Convocation in the future, but their time as primary antagonists and plot drivers is probably done. I could see people using their tricks for nefarious purposes, though. We will probably never be entirely rid of people who think that becoming a bodiless, masked rear end in a top hat is an upgrade, but as an actual INDUSTRY they are probably done. The writers have a tendency to not simply discard mechanics and setting elements. As long as something is a part of the setting itself, we are probably going to have the possibility of SOME aspect of it popping up.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 17:00
|
|
|
TGLT posted:Y'know there's one loose thread that I'm curious about - I don't think we ever see purple rock candy mountain again. I guess the idea is it and all the presumably Amaurotine souls in it fade when Zodiark dies, but it'd have been nice for it to show up again as a nod to the eventual fate of blue rock candy mountain. Maybe as the backdrop to the Zodiark fight or something. Zenos ate it
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 17:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 09:22 |
|
|
thetoughestbean posted:Zenos ate it This is a distinct possibility, he wasn't quite as radioactive before.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2021 17:10
|
|