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Who among us wouldn’t do some light genocide to try to get humanity onto our preferred course
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Dec 13, 2021 18:29
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thetoughestbean posted:Who among us wouldn’t do some light genocide to try to get humanity onto our preferred course good news awaits you in Elpis
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Dec 13, 2021 18:32
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I'd if my preferred course was an alternative to extinction
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Dec 13, 2021 18:33
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Soul fracking is a cleaner alternative to soul sacrifice, really. I think some of the problems with Venat are the consequence of her playing the role of the sunderer what directly destroyed Amaurotine society, destructive as it was and likely doomed anyways, and her acting as a stand in for the idea that you can't simply turn away from suffering and misery. They want you to agree with the latter, the metaphor, without totally absolving her of the literal actions of the former, and I can see it being read as a dumb and bad "hard people making hard choices" story beat even if i don't agree with it.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:35
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Super No Vacancy posted:I'd if my preferred course was an alternative to extinction Are you pretending to be a crystal instead of an Amano artwork?
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Dec 13, 2021 18:35
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Lord_Magmar posted:Also of course Venat loves the world, so does Hades. That love manifests in focus on different things. Hades’ love led into the love for his people that caused him to treat them as more important than the rest of the planet because they’re the true stewards of the planet. Venat in turn goes the other way, deciding the planet and it’s myriad lives are more important than the Ancients and their civlisation. I can't really disagree with any of this in theory - they do show flaws in Hydaelyn's thinking, and they do have a message how both sides had good intentions and came together in the end. I suppose it just comes down to the framing, which is a really difficult thing to argue about. To me, the difference between how Venat/Hydaelyn was treated and how Emet and the Ascians were treated was starkly different on every level. Hydaelyn's love was framed as far more straightforwardly wholesome and heroic. The message that she was a good person/just deity and not to think ill of her oozed constantly from the script throughout the second half, and never seemed to even suggest her actions were so much as complicated, let alone monstrous, other than a few fleeting moments. Even the Sundering itself felt framed as kind of righteous in the scene it happens. And yeah, you can justify that by saying that it was because we're playing as the sundered, but ultimately, if the writers wanted to us (the players) to view her and Emet's situations as morally equatable, they could've found a way to do it. And, well. They didn't. But I can't really point to anything too specific as evidence for this, since it's just tone we're talking about. If it's not what you saw, it's not what you saw.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:35
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The sundering was also necessary to defuse Zodiark. That's the only way she had the power to remove the possibility of him destroying all other life on the planet in sacrifice. That first reason we were told for the sundering hasn't gone away just because we learned Venat had even MORE reasons for going that route.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:37
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Ishikawa, please, please learn how to pace a story. As much as I generally enjoy your writing, stop ruining every loving moment of victory and hope by immediately popping in your self-indulgent dipshit of a husbandu and forcing me to play along with him.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:37
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Cythereal posted:Ishikawa, please, please learn how to pace a story. As much as I generally enjoy your writing, stop ruining every loving moment of victory and hope by immediately popping in your self-indulgent dipshit of a husbandu and forcing me to play along with him. Not a fan of Emannellain I take it
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Dec 13, 2021 18:38
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Cythereal posted:Ishikawa, please, please learn how to pace a story. As much as I generally enjoy your writing, stop ruining every loving moment of victory and hope by immediately popping in your self-indulgent dipshit of a husbandu and forcing me to play along with him. yike
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Dec 13, 2021 18:39
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Regy Rusty posted:The sundering was also necessary to defuse Zodiark. That's the only way she had the power to remove the possibility of him destroying all other life on the planet in sacrifice. That first reason we were told for the sundering hasn't gone away just because we learned Venat had even MORE reasons for going that route. Again, it's not really about whether or not the writers created a scenario that justifies how inflicting permanent suffering on a worldwide scale is Good Actually or not for me. It's that they set out to do so in the first place.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:39
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Cythereal posted:Ishikawa, please, please learn how to pace a story. As much as I generally enjoy your writing, stop ruining every loving moment of victory and hope by immediately popping in your self-indulgent dipshit of a husbandu and forcing me to play along with him. Zenos is cool
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Dec 13, 2021 18:40
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I actually do think the tone is a bit off, we could’ve had Venat and her followers debating going through with things as part of her flashback after her finding her resolve moment for example. But the intent is clear enough that the slightly odd tone feels like well. A nostalgic element of viewing Venat’s memories which of course make her look better, in the same way that Hades presents himself as better than he is via memories. I think it’s important that Hydaelyn’s love for the sundered is pure, she made them, seeing them suffer hurts her visibly and she can’t do enough to stop it no matter how much she empowers heroes and struggles alongside her children. That’s why her love is portrayed as wholesome/heroic, because the love she had is for you who are alive today. Emet’s love is for those who have died and he wants them back, I’m sure if we were one of the people Emet loved, instead of in his own estimation a broken husk of someone else, he’d come across a lot more wholesome too.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:41
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PoorWeather posted:Again, it's not really about whether or not the writers created a scenario that justifies how inflicting permanent suffering on a worldwide scale is Good Actually or not for me. It's that they set out to do so in the first place. I guess I don't understand how that is what the Sundering is above all else.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:41
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Cythereal posted:Ishikawa, please, please learn how to pace a story. As much as I generally enjoy your writing, stop ruining every loving moment of victory and hope by immediately popping in your self-indulgent dipshit of a husbandu and forcing me to play along with him. 
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Dec 13, 2021 18:42
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The Sundering isn't suffering, it's preservation of life. It's coded as that because that's what it is.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:42
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That reminds me, how many people directed Emmanelain to go and get himself some Archon Loaf? Also I will admit that a tiny, petty portion of my enjoyment of Zone 5 was the awareness that the gently caress Emet-Selch brigade would be groaning and rending their clothes all the way through.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:43
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FeatherFloat posted:That reminds me, how many people directed Emmanelain to go and get himself some Archon Loaf? I sent him to the cafe because I am not a monster to my little brother. In the case of my WoL of course Edmont could be considered a little brother, as my internal narrative is for a male Viera who is 150 years old at the start of ARR. Which makes a bunch of plot beats really interesting and different in a fun way. Like Emet-Selch talking about living amongst the mortals and watching the die of age and illness whilst he continues on is suddenly really relevant in an interesting way when my character is distressingly aware that he will outlive every single Scion except maybe the twins. They will grow old and either and he will continue to be young and beautiful. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 18:44
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Arist posted:The Sundering isn't suffering, it's preservation of life. It's coded as that because that's what it is. Yeah. Venat talks about suffering because that's a consequence of life continuing rather than accepting Meteion or the other ancients's solutions. She apologizes because she is the one who took it on herself to make that choice and thus feels the burden of all the bad things that happened since.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:44
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Regy Rusty posted:I guess I don't understand how that is what the Sundering is above all else. I mean, after she commits the Sundering, Venat says herself that she birth a world of suffering and pain. We get lots of imagery of miserable people around her to drive the point home.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:45
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PoorWeather posted:Again, it's not really about whether or not the writers created a scenario that justifies how inflicting permanent suffering on a worldwide scale is Good Actually or not for me. It's that they set out to do so in the first place. See I think that's partly a mistaken reading. There was suffering in Amaurot, see the "flawed" creations of Elpis or Hermes, and they instead refused to engage with it. For a while they could get away with that but with the coming of Meteion - the embodiment of "why keep living" - they no longer had that luxury even as they tried to pretend they did. I mean hell they were about to engage in a whole lot more suffering making of their own. Venat definitely made a world where things were going to be generally worse for everyone, but she didn't inflict permanent suffering. It was always there, reality did that part. Sundering tore away people's ability to as easily hide from its existence which set people on a path of creating a world that could survive its existence. Probably prematurely, but still.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:45
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FeatherFloat posted:That reminds me, how many people directed Emmanelain to go and get himself some Archon Loaf? I considered it but I ended up sending him to the Last Stand. I don’t wish bad things on him, even if he’s near totally useless I’m troubled that the second paragraph can be read multiple ways
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Dec 13, 2021 18:46
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thetoughestbean posted:I considered it but I ended up sending him to the Last Stand. I don’t wish bad things on him, even if he’s near totally useless I also sent him to the Last Stand, but a few of my friends were like ha ha no, go away kid, it's nerd bread for you. (I was honestly a bit stressed out that Emmanelain was being sent along on the early stuff! I really didn't want to get TWO of Mr. Fortemps boys killed, y'know???) ...oh dear. It can, can't it?
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Dec 13, 2021 18:47
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Yep, I was kinda going 'huh' on the whole Sundering thing. But at least thinking back on it, I recognized that Venat seemed to very much consider it a desperate last gambit, and the scene where she was pleading with the Zodiark worshippers to please don't do the 'sacrifice the new life to bring back the dead' was her trying to find a way out of that possibility. if they went 'Hm, you know what? Alright. Our dead friends wouldn't want the innocent life be snuffed out just to be brought back. Let us rebuild this world together, praise Zodiark' Venat presumably would have not engaged the Sundering Contingency. And she does acknowledge in the end that she caused a shitton of deaths too.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:47
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Like if people forgot, Emet was pretty ready to let a whole species get unmade rather than see anyone suffer the indignity of a little transformation magic. Hythlodeus had us break down two butterflies to give us some very neat robes for... kind of no reason? None of the other familiars wore robes like that. They say poo poo like this to you in the side quests.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:50
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TGLT posted:there was suffering in Amaurot, see the "flawed" creations of Elpis or Hermes, and they instead refused to engage with it. This is demonstrably untrue, both through the MSQ and the sidequests. Hythlodaeus, Emet-Selch, and Venat were all happy to hear Hermes out (well, Emet-Selch will grumble at first, as he does with everything, but.) The Ancients absolutely were capable of taking Hermes's points to heart. You do your WoL thing through Elpis if you explore there, inspiring others to update their thinking and see things from another perspective and improve. Hermes's points were valid. He was being offered a seat of the highest power in his society, and imagine all the good he could have done if he had wanted to put in the work of making things better. Instead, he wrapped himself up in his own misery, isolated himself and convinced himself no one could understand based on the mood ring flowers, and then sent his untested creation to brave the horror of space alone to give him some peace of mind.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:50
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TGLT posted:See I think that's partly a mistaken reading. There was suffering in Amaurot, see the "flawed" creations of Elpis or Hermes, and they instead refused to engage with it. For a while they could get away with that but with the coming of Meteion - the embodiment of "why keep living" - they no longer had that luxury even as they tried to pretend they did. I mean hell they were about to engage in a whole lot more suffering making of their own. I mean... If I cut your guts open and stole a bunch of your organs, making you chronically unhealthy and cutting your lifespan down by decades, I'm pretty sure I'd still be a huge rear end in a top hat even if I said "now you can no longer hide from the pain inherent to the world, go forth and truly begin to live" afterwards. Suffering existed before the sundering, and it existed afterwards. Venat increased the % of suffering the average person experiences by a lot. And yes, the narrative threw reasons out there for why this was okay/for the best, but that isn't my point. The point is they wrote a scenario where it seemed like we were meant to view hurting a huge amount of people tremendously as totally justified and cool, even though that would never be justified and cool anywhere else in the game. PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 18:52
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Actually now I am curious, given the nature of FFXIV as a somewhat self insert fiction. Are there any story beats where your internal characterisation, whether it be from being a Hrothgar during ARR and hearing the words Beastmen said straight to your face, or all the assumptions of your character being a young fresh adventurer for those playing what they want to be older heroes, either simply mature or as I showed in my case playing with the Viera having a lifespan of 300 years; led to an interesting experience of the story. My own internal character’s response to Emet-Selch for example feels like it’s a kind of neat idea. How does a Viera who will outlive the Scions react to Emet’s whole spiel about watching mortals die. Or the more comedic examples of being treated as fairly young by most people, only to get incredibly funny reactions when he reveals he’s older than the rest of the Scions combined and could have been Louisox’s grandfather. I wonder how old Erenville actually is, given the amount of respect and power he has over the Gleaners narratively. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 18:52
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TGLT posted:Like if people forgot, Emet was pretty ready to let a whole species get unmade rather than see anyone suffer the indignity of a little transformation magic. Hythlodeus had us break down two butterflies to give us some very neat robes for... kind of no reason? None of the other familiars wore robes like that. They say poo poo like this to you in the side quests. This whole argument is always really strange to me considering that we go around every other FATE or sidequest culling animals or killing them to get materials for someone, or ourselves, while we the players sit at home wearing clothes often made with animal products and chowing down on animal-based foods that we certainly don't necessarily need. Like, you can absolutely mitigate the cruelty and suffering of the necessity of culling beings for the sake of the environment or for our own desires, and Hermes was in a position to do so and make change - people were willing to hear him out - but he instead had a self-destructive meltdown because he could not accept suffering or death on any level. Also, that Ancient was loving hilarious and did nothing wrong and I love him. Do the honorable thing and die.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:53
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Lord_Magmar posted:Actually now I am curious, given the nature of FFXIV as a somewhat self insert fiction. Are there any story beats where your internal characterisation, whether it be from being a Hrothgar during ARR and hearing the words Beastmen said straight to your face, or all the assumptions of your character being a young fresh adventurer for those playing what they want to be older heroes, either simply mature or as I showed in my case playing with the Viera having a lifespan of 300 years; led to an interesting experience of the story. I don’t have much to add besides that an npc in Elpis says that they know I’m a familiar because I have the head of a cat. I wish more stuff like that would come up more often
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Dec 13, 2021 18:54
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Raelle posted:This is demonstrably untrue, both through the MSQ and the sidequests. Hythlodaeus, Emet-Selch, and Venat were all happy to hear Hermes out (well, Emet-Selch will grumble at first, as he does with everything, but.) The Ancients absolutely were capable of taking Hermes's points to heart. You do your WoL thing through Elpis if you explore there, inspiring others to update their thinking and see things from another perspective and improve. Yeah like... Venat's Sundering is not a judgment of Ancient society. It's not a "well, Elpis was monstrous and unsustainable," or "mortality is good actually." She hates what she did, she loves her society, and she loathes that had to sit back and watch people in agony that once would have been easily curable. It's a desperate Venat, after having tried every argument to dissuade an escalating cycle of sacrifices to pursue an idealized golden age that never actually existed, choosing the only option that cuts that possibility off at the pass. Ancient society had suffering, and it had tools to deal with that suffering. Once the Final Days occurred, the traumatized survivors forsook those tools in favor of rosy-colored nostalgic memories of a time that by contrast seemed utterly idyllic but could never truly be brought back. So Venat keeps them from being able to act on those desires, even though it inflicts horrible loss and tragedy. Ancient society was good - it was not doomed to the same end as the Plenty even if Meteion thinks it was. Sundered society is also, in its way, good. The game is not saying that a better past did not deserve to exist, only that circumstances and tragedy ended it and bringing it back at the cost of countless lives is an insult to its memory.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:54
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Also, regarding an earlier point that Hydaelin is given the 'she was right' thing. I feel that is perhaps a bit nuanced. In that Hydaelin, at her exist, engages with the suffering she caused. While Emet, even without the Tempering, even having full knowledge of how it played out, clearly states that he feels he made the right decisions. So I think the game does offer some shades of gray there.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:55
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I hope the fact that people are throwing out wildly different interpretations of how the narrative meant Venat to be seen, even among those who didn't have any problems with that part of the narrative, goes some way to illustrating the inherent jank to it I'm kinda fundamentally complaining about.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:56
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Whenever Zenos' not on screen, all the other characters should be asking, "Where's Zenos?"
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Dec 13, 2021 18:57
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thetoughestbean posted:I don’t have much to add besides that an npc in Elpis says that they know I’m a familiar because I have the head of a cat. I wish more stuff like that would come up more often Agreed, it’s something I fondly remember from WoW, even if it wasn’t actually as prevalent as it is in my mind. WoW often had small comments or mentions of your character’s chosen race, Mists had an entire questline about the history of various Horde races for example that even got updates for races that were added after Mists. It’s be a lot to ask, but even a small recognition of the Beastman thing for Hrothgar would be neat. Or the Au Ra thing in Ishgard or Yugiri hiding it when you can be right there in the open. One of the things I noticed playing Endwalker is they actually had way more male Viera than I expected given their supposed scarcity, but I realised their long lives mean that even with that scarcity, all of them look the same age but we have no idea when they left the forest or were born. Erenville could be older than everyone on Old Sharlayan and we would not be able to tell. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 18:58
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I feel strongly about this, as an aside, because I actually really appreciate FF14 for, in my view, avoiding the all-too-common read of "well the utopian precursors were bad and wrong and needed to be destroyed due to a secret Omelas-esque monstrous sin." Which it does not do. Elpis is a good place full of good people that deserved to thrive, even if they were different from some of our values. That the people of the Unsundered World undergo a metaphorical diasporic expulsion from a prior past glorious age does not mean that glorious age was not glorious. It just means that sometimes tragic poo poo happens, and in the aftermath of that tragedy some harsh steps were necessary to avoid things getting worse. I really love the sidequests where Ancient researchers sincerely ask for your opinion "as a familiar" on their actions and behavior, and show great concern for your well-being. It's really just further nails in the coffin for just how badly trauma hosed up the Ascians that they forgot how most of them had treated their supposed "lessers." I also wonder if, honestly, there's really any difference between "stabilized" familiars and Sundered people. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 18:58
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Vitamean posted:Whenever Emmanellain's not on screen, all the other characters should be asking, "Where's Emmanellain?"
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Dec 13, 2021 18:59
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multijoe posted:Zenos is cool Piggybacking off this to comment on how much I appreciated Zenos just...not interfering with your business with Meteion at the very end. loving with that would have stoked some incredible rage and...he just lets it play out and makes his challenge once you're finished. And my WoL was happy to accept! It's not exactly incredible character growth but it worked well for me.
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Dec 13, 2021 18:59
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I like that I put off the Firmament storyline quests until the week before Endwalker and my big little buddy shows up in the Ul'Dah branch love him
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Dec 13, 2021 19:00
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Oh Snapple! posted:Piggybacking off this to comment on how much I appreciated Zenos just...not interfering with your business with Meteion at the very end. loving with that would have stoked some incredible rage and...he just lets it play out and makes his challenge once you're finished. And my WoL was happy to accept! It's not exactly incredible character growth but it worked well for me. Zenos figured out how to be a good friend and I found his arc in Endwalker unironically kind of touching and sweet.
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Dec 13, 2021 19:01
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