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Dec 14, 2021 21:49
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OwlFancier posted:Except for any job where you have to keep up a certification, you don't get to say "well I learned the regs in 1963 and I don't see why I need to learn anything else" echoing this, I work in the electrical trade and every revision of every regs book is a 'do this to keep yourself compliant or you're fired' situation. also when I was involved in groundwater pumping work I had to have injections for polio, tetanus and hep. B, or I'd be kicked off the project.
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Dec 14, 2021 21:49
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I'll go against the thread trend and say that vaccination should be compulsory: the needs of society take precedence over your bodily autonomy just like the needs of society take precedence over any of your other freedoms when it comes down to it. I imagine most Western countries are going to continue to go the route of encouraging vaccination by inconvenience, where unvaccinated people can't go on public transport or to the shops or to the pub without a negative test from that day and probably can't travel internationally at all without a very, very good reason. At that point you might as well just go with compulsory vaccination for everyone who is medically able to get it and house arrest for those who refuse, because those people are effectively prevented from participating in society anyway.
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Dec 14, 2021 21:50
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smellmycheese posted:Yikes Is that the Downing Street xmas party?
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Dec 14, 2021 21:52
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fuctifino posted:Is that the Downing Street xmas party? Tory HQ 
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Dec 14, 2021 21:53
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I think there should be carrot and stick involved. The stick is obviously Fash Saj threatening you with the sack, but I'm not sure where the carrot is besides "keep doing this job you probably burned out on months ago". Many NHS staff - particularly patient-facing staff - have had an appallingly bad time of it in the last 21 months and this is yet another thing they're expected to cop and go on without complaint.
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Dec 14, 2021 21:56
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big scary monsters posted:I'll go against the thread trend and say that vaccination should be compulsory: the needs of society take precedence over your bodily autonomy just like the needs of society take precedence over any of your other freedoms when it comes down to it. I imagine most Western countries are going to continue to go the route of encouraging vaccination by inconvenience, where unvaccinated people can't go on public transport or to the shops or to the pub without a negative test from that day and probably can't travel internationally at all without a very, very good reason. At that point you might as well just go with compulsory vaccination for everyone who is medically able to get it and house arrest for those who refuse, because those people are effectively prevented from participating in society anyway. My big rebuttal to this is that a large part of my political ideology says the needs of capitalist society are wrong and need to be destroyed. The capitalist state is only going to handle the pandemic to the extent that it allows the stable return of the accumulation of capital and the trajectory we're currently heading on is that the costs of the pandemic is paid entirely by the working class, in terms of health and freedoms. So gently caress being manipulated to that extent just to return the 1% back to their stable comfortable position.
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Dec 14, 2021 21:58
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But low vaccination rates only kill the working class, and while death does solve all problems, I am generally in the minority in applying this thinking so universally.
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Dec 14, 2021 22:03
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namesake posted:The capitalist state is only going to handle the pandemic to the extent that it allows the stable return of the accumulation of capital and the trajectory we're currently heading on is that the costs of the pandemic is paid entirely by the working class, in terms of health and freedoms. I won't argue with this part, but I don't think I agree with the implied conclusion of "so let it all burn" (apologies if I've misread you). It is unfortunate that preventing hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths props up the existing and bad regime, but it feels a bit like the argument that letting the poor starve is all worthwhile in the service of fomenting an appropriate revolutionary spirit. You could effectively destroy capitalism by converting the surface of the planet to radioactive glass, but I feel like the side effects might not be worth it.
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Dec 14, 2021 22:11
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Raucous! That one guys is wearing suspenders and laying down
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Dec 14, 2021 22:13
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OwlFancier posted:But low vaccination rates only kill the working class, and while death does solve all problems, I am generally in the minority in applying this thinking so universally. The rates here aren't low. The question is how good are high rates. The working class are the workers though and capitalism spends most of its effort making sure there's an appropriate supply of labour to fuel that accumulation because otherwise it all goes to poo poo. Capitalism and the ruling class would be absolutely fine with having 6 summer months of the year as the work hard, play hard, spend hard baccanal and the other 6 months under heavy antivirus lockdowns as they work remotely from the other hemisphere which just happens to be in its 6 months of partying. big scary monsters posted:I won't argue with this part, but I don't think I agree with the implied conclusion of "so let it all burn" (apologies if I've misread you). It is unfortunate that preventing hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths props up the existing and bad regime, but it feels a bit like the argument that letting the poor starve is all worthwhile in the service of fomenting an appropriate revolutionary spirit. I'm not saying the way out is through a wave of covid deaths, I'm saying the way out is resistance. Schools have to be in person so parents can work better, work safety has to be a minimum to maximise profits, all recreation has to be crammed full to maximise income. Those are rules of capitalism, not human society. namesake fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 22:13
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I am still not seeing how not getting vaccinated is revolutionary activity. Because disease isn't a capitalist invention, vaccinations would still be very important in a non capitalist society unless that society were so atomized that nobody ever interacted with anybody else.
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Dec 14, 2021 22:16
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namesake posted:My big rebuttal to this is that a large part of my political ideology says the needs of capitalist society are wrong and need to be destroyed. The capitalist state is only going to handle the pandemic to the extent that it allows the stable return of the accumulation of capital and the trajectory we're currently heading on is that the costs of the pandemic is paid entirely by the working class, in terms of health and freedoms. Talk me through the chain of thought here, because from my reading it seems to go: 1: Someone's granny dies because the nurse changing their dressing read something about graphene oxide on Facebook 2: ???? 3: I mean I'm being flippant but I can understand arguments around bodily autonomy, and the need for a multi-layered approach of which vaccines are just one part, and am willing to go back and forth on them. But now you've suddenly switched to "Vaccines are only being used to help the 1% make more money", ignoring the fact that the 1% have been making out like bandits over the last two years and vaccines are completely unrelated to that, and also that even if what you were saying was true it's still indisputable that an unvaccinated person is a clear and present and unambiguous danger to those around them, and that danger is massively multiplied for anyone working in a healthcare role.
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Dec 14, 2021 22:18
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Resistance is revolutionary, except disease resistance.
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Dec 14, 2021 22:19
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Talk me through the chain of thought here, because from my reading it seems to go: big scary monsters was talking about house arrest or mandatory vaccinations for everyone, that's different from an inappropriate patient safety policy for healthcare safety. They are linked though because they are both tools used to create a certain kind of society and we know that the current form of society that will reproduce itself is capitalism. Either you let the currently ruling class shape society and control the people within it according to the needs of ever accumulating capital through shoving just enough labour into producing commodities or you take a stand somewhere. Socialists should be fighting for health and freedom and find a way to make both happen.
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Dec 14, 2021 22:25
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ro5s posted:Edinburgh seems really booked up, best I could get is the middle of january. FYI there's drop-in places that have just opened, no appointment needed. Two in Leith and I think some elsewhere. Friend went to the one at Ocean Terminal this afternoon, two hour wait but got their booster.
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Dec 14, 2021 22:27
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smellmycheese posted:Yikes Imagine winning the biggest oval office at the illegal tory hq xmas party with ease. Tears in my eyes.
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Dec 14, 2021 22:29
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Health and freedom are incompatible if "freedom" means that what you read on facebook is more important than other people's lives. Unqualified "freedom" is a stupid term because one person having unlimited freedom to do whatever they want is obviously incompatible with other people having the same thing, all freedom in a society of any sort is necessarily mediated.
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Dec 14, 2021 22:36
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HopperUK posted:Miniature rooms Some nice miniature greenhouses etc on this website you might like https://byanavrin.com/products/cathys-miniature-green-house
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Dec 14, 2021 22:37
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namesake posted:I'm not saying the way out is through a wave of covid deaths, I'm saying the way out is resistance. Schools have to be in person so parents can work better, work safety has to be a minimum to maximise profits, all recreation has to be crammed full to maximise income. Those are rules of capitalism, not human society. namesake posted:big scary monsters was talking about house arrest or mandatory vaccinations for everyone, that's different from an inappropriate patient safety policy for healthcare safety. They are linked though because they are both tools used to create a certain kind of society and we know that the current form of society that will reproduce itself is capitalism. Either you let the currently ruling class shape society and control the people within it according to the needs of ever accumulating capital through shoving just enough labour into producing commodities or you take a stand somewhere. Socialists should be fighting for health and freedom and find a way to make both happen. OK, I understand you now. I do agree with you that vaccination is being coopted by capital, for example through the vaccine certificates, to try to find a way back to the control and worker coercion that has slipped slightly through the pandemic. But, while I used examples of what capitalist states are or will likely be doing in my post, I am pretty actually uncomfortable with the two-tier system of people with vaccination certificates and an unvaccinated underclass. Particularly because already oppressed groups are the people most likely to be unvaccinated, whether by choice or not. One nice aspect of mandatory vaccination for all would be to prevent that. But in the face of a pandemic it would probably be a good idea almost no matter what your society's dominant ideology looked like. Obviously in an enlightened utopia you'd hope that the coercion would be unneccesary to achieving near-universal vaccination, but we aren't there and I don't think this helps us get there.
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Dec 14, 2021 22:43
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OwlFancier posted:Health and freedom are incompatible if "freedom" means that what you read on facebook is more important than other people's lives. Yet databases containing your medical and personal information have been created and are being held by the state or USA tech companies with an aim to require you to be on it to access certain bits of society, the LFT alternative in the legislation was a late addition! That's a real limitation to freedom which is fine to feel extremely bad about being put in place. The issue is that the pandemic is the result of the ruling class and the virus interacting through the working class as each tries to get what it wants, not society as a whole trying to resist the virus. If either the ruling class or the virus gets the upper hand in any moment in time then the working class loses, the only way out is a class conscious working class organisation able to change society to suit working class needs, beating back both the ruling class and the virus. big scary monsters posted:OK, I understand you now. I do agree with you that vaccination is being coopted by capital, for example through the vaccine certificates, to try to find a way back to the control and worker coercion that has slipped slightly through the pandemic. But, while I used examples of what capitalist societies are or will likely be doing in my post, I am pretty actually uncomfortable with the two-tier system of people with vaccination certificates and an unvaccinated underclass. Particularly because already oppressed groups are the people most likely to be unvaccinated, whether by choice or not. One nice aspect of mandatory vaccination for all would be to prevent that. But in the face of a pandemic it would probably be a good idea almost no matter what your society's dominant ideology looked like. Obviously in an enlightened utopia you'd hope that the coercion would be unneccesary to achieving near-universal vaccination, but we aren't there and I don't think this helps us get there. A pre-emptive requirement for a mandatory system will be having to appear on some sort of register though. Anyone with uncertain residence status (for example) will naturally not appear in most of them and really really not want to appear on a new one so the nature of capitalist society, with its borders and restrictions, is that there is going to be some number of people who either evade the system, defeating the purpose of it, or are caught and suffer simply from appearing on a system. There's also a wider question around while vaccination provides some level of protection it's not the only possible way of reducing cases, hospitalisations and deaths - we spent 9 months of 2020 trialling alternatives and while they were pretty bad attempts it's not like NPIs are suddenly not any use at all and the benefits of universal things like ventilation at work or masks everywhere is that they aren't individual, they are a collective defence. Even if you don't or can't partake you can enjoin the protection and that's a good thing. That's more in line with how things should change. namesake fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 22:43
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namesake posted:big scary monsters was talking about house arrest or mandatory vaccinations for everyone, that's different from an inappropriate patient safety policy for healthcare safety. They are linked though because they are both tools used to create a certain kind of society and we know that the current form of society that will reproduce itself is capitalism. Either you let the currently ruling class shape society and control the people within it according to the needs of ever accumulating capital through shoving just enough labour into producing commodities or you take a stand somewhere. Socialists should be fighting for health and freedom and find a way to make both happen. I don't even know where to start with this. At *best* it's the weirdest accelerationist argument I've ever heard, like someone heard about how the Black Death massively increased the bargaining power of the peasant farmers and destroyed feudal society as a result and thought "Huh, maybe that's what we need to do?" without really thinking through the ramifications. I'm just not seeing the connection here, or at least not a connection that can't also be applied to literally any other enforced health regulation.
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Dec 14, 2021 22:45
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smellmycheese posted:Yikes An entire room of perfect Backpfeifengesichter, astounding.
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Dec 14, 2021 22:48
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https://twitter.com/Coldwar_Steve/status/1470855294674776072
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Dec 14, 2021 22:49
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smellmycheese posted:Tory HQ Lol Shaun Bailey, up until about an hour ago the chair of the London Assembly police & crime committee e: haha https://twitter.com/wsussexdan/status/1470858694032248837?s=21
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Dec 14, 2021 22:54
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I don't even know where to start with this. At *best* it's the weirdest accelerationist argument I've ever heard, like someone heard about how the Black Death massively increased the bargaining power of the peasant farmers and destroyed feudal society as a result and thought "Huh, maybe that's what we need to do?" without really thinking through the ramifications. I'm just not seeing the connection here, or at least not a connection that can't also be applied to literally any other enforced health regulation. You seem to be confusing 'fight the ruling class' with 'letting the virus spread unchecked'. I'm saying that we need a revolutionary communist party that rejects the current needs of capitalist society and its tradeoff between keeping the virus at bay through increasing invasive individual monitoring and restrictions according to the needs and wants of businesses or letting the virus tear through populations.
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Dec 14, 2021 22:56
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Noxville posted:Lol Shaun Bailey, up until about an hour ago the chair of the London Assembly police & crime committee got one
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Dec 14, 2021 23:01
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namesake posted:You seem to be confusing 'fight the ruling class' with 'letting the virus spread unchecked'. I'm saying that we need a revolutionary communist party that rejects the current needs of capitalist society and its tradeoff between keeping the virus at bay through increasing invasive individual monitoring and restrictions according to the needs and wants of businesses or letting the virus tear through populations. That's nice but it still doesn't explain why healthcare workers should be allowed to go unvaccinated.
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Dec 14, 2021 23:06
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you're just in a strop cos they won't let you point at chairs anymore
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Dec 14, 2021 23:10
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goddamnedtwisto posted:That's nice but it still doesn't explain why healthcare workers should be allowed to go unvaccinated. 1. With the majority of the rest of the workforce being vaccinated and adequate PPE and training the risk of transferring the virus to a patient is lower than increased patient harms through inadequate supervision, delays in treatment, patient safety incidents, etc which increase when staffing levels are low. 2. Patient outcomes also depend on non-medical factors like speed of discharge to safe environments, morale boosting visitors from relatives, etc. Patient safety starts and ends in the community so keeping community spread low and allowing society to generally function virus free is vastly more important to patient outcomes than potential infection vectors from staff. The government should start there before pressuring overworked healthcare staff and staffing levels. 3. Forcing staff to quit will increase the crisis in the NHS and encourage people to find private alternatives as they cannot afford to wait but can afford to pay, this undermines the whole system and should be fought. Plus the whole class war thing.
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Dec 14, 2021 23:19
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big scary monsters posted:An entire room of perfect Backpfeifengesichter, astounding. That lad at the front left with the wooly jumper is definitely lusting after the buffet table, he wants it all!
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Dec 14, 2021 23:25
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namesake posted:1. With the majority of the rest of the workforce being vaccinated and adequate PPE and training the risk of transferring the virus to a patient is lower than increased patient harms through inadequate supervision, delays in treatment, patient safety incidents, etc which increase when staffing levels are low. You can cite sources on that I assume
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Dec 14, 2021 23:27
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Just Another Lurker posted:That lad at the front left with the wooly jumper is definitely lusting after the buffet table, he wants it all! I did want to give him some credit for what at first glance looks like a decent Christmas jumper. But looking closer I think those are royal lions marching around the chest and possibly parliamentary portcullises a bit lower down. Is this official governmental festive attire?
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Dec 14, 2021 23:32
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Failed Imagineer posted:You can cite sources on that I assume The RCN consider the impact of loss of staff to be part of the justification for objecting to the mandate https://www.rcn.org.uk/about-us/our-influencing-work/policy-briefings/conr-12421 and no vaccine is completely sterilising so some risk of transmission exists even with vaccinated staff unless there's good PPE usage (probably even then).
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Dec 14, 2021 23:39
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smellmycheese posted:Yikes Everything in that photo other than the lanyards and a few haircuts look like they're from 1982. The food and crockery especially.
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Dec 14, 2021 23:46
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The guy in the red party hat looks like Jeff Winger if he was British and had done a mountain of coke
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Dec 14, 2021 23:52
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Have any of the other people been ID'd yet?
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Dec 14, 2021 23:53
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It's incredible how much of this stuff is coming out now all the right wingers are in positions of power in Labour. Edit: https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1470825725305442306 Gonzo McFee fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 23:55
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namesake posted:The rates here aren't low. The question is how good are high rates. 
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Dec 15, 2021 00:03
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fuctifino posted:Have any of the other people been ID'd yet?
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Dec 15, 2021 00:10
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