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I don't have any faith of it happening in Warhammer 3 unfortunately, but I really hope at some point they just rework how ranged attacks work. I'd like to see: Damage, especially armor piercing damage, falling off at range, with missile damage being noticeably reduced and relatively ineffective against armor at max range. this would also really need different profiles for that dropoff for different weapons to work fully sense. A toggle to not fire beyond half range, and close to that distance if needed when given an attack order, would also be in order Screening being actually viable. One way I could think of making that work is to apply a sizeable accuracy penalty based on the number of possible targets you have that are closer to the ranged unit than the one it's shooting. This would make focus fire less viable as ranged attacks would be less efficient if they are attacking their closest target, and also make it possible to provide some degree of protection for valuable units as your army advances. Restrict the number of ranks in a unit that can actually fire, which would encourage deploying them in thin formations to get the most out of them. Yeah even for non-gunpowder units, though again weapon profiles and possibly unit abilities that determine the number of ranks a unit can fire with would be appropriate here. And then a personal bugbear, I'd like to see arced "indirect" archer fire just go away. The idea that that is how archers were used in historical warfare is actually just plain wrong and has been perpetuated in media for way too long, it would be great if the Total War games decided that they're going to move away from that in order to correct that false image. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Dec 17, 2021 |
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Dec 17, 2021 11:55
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Foul Fowl posted:yeah but what are their options with how the game is built now? ranged is king. until they do a big balance sweep it's going to stay that way. looking at where total war 1 started and where total war 2 ended up i hope they just re-balance everything. Very optimistically, in WH1 ranged was useful but not as dominant as it is in WH2. In 2, they changed how arcing fire targets enemies and changed (increased) the angle archers can fire over friendly units. They also gave more factions SEMs. The former choice was seemingly done to make more ranged-heavy armies possible because that's really just the elf power fantasy. Also they made darkshards for some reason which kicked off an arms race. In WH3 three of the six factions are very melee heavy. Of the three remaining, one has a lot of ranged firepower but it seems to come in the form of short-range, AOE direct fire flamethrower attacks with minimal ammo, so a very different paradigm. A second has a faction effect that buffs ranged units near melee units and vice versa, but they might still be very "WH2" in feel. Finally, Kislev seems like their ranged units are split between direct-fire AP and arcing slowing archers. If the ice guard don't deal that much damage, especially AP, then they will still be different from WH2 with how trivial stacking ranged damage is. Maybe. Hopefully. Anyway a big point is that from 1-> 2 they were willing to make a targeting change that shifted power pretty significantly. They might be willing to do similar things in 3. And with 2, they made it clear they were balancing for 2 only and then went back to look at how 1's armies fit within that paradigm, because gunpowder units were completely broken for a month+ post ME launch and would charge into melee trying to target the enemy because of the targeting changes. So 3 might generally launch with weaker ranged in general because they plan on changing how ranged works for the 1 and 2 races. Probably not much, because that is an insane amount of work, but it's possible. I don't know how you'd do it, but limiting the ability of range to focus on a single unit at a time is really what you need. Limit their ability to fire over friendly units is my preference (and actually wouldn't hurt the WH2 units that much given how many of their good ranged units have decent melee stats) but there are other ways. Ranged damage falloff at long range. Some kind of scaling ranged damage resistance the more units are shooting at you simultaneously (I don't like this as much). Damage resistance for units engaged in melee negated by ranged units having clear direct LOS. Significantly decreased accuracy with arcing fire encouraging you to move your ranged units about instead of just sitting behind spears. AI change to make them bunch up less on a SEM. And no, I think Slaanesh getting insane charge bonuses on everything sounds really fun and a nice change from "line up archers behind spears" and "at higher levels just ditch the spears for heroes or SEMS". I don't think they will suck either, at least on campaign. Beastmen sure don't. E: but yeah overall just remove arcing ranged fire in almost all respects from the game and all future warhammer games. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Dec 17, 2021 |
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Dec 17, 2021 12:10
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Messing about with firing arcs and damage falloff would be a good way to increase unit and faction diversity; crossbows could split the difference between and gunpowder units in terms of their ability to arc their fire, and higher tier units/more archery focused factions could pull off shooting at a 170⁰ angle while still hitting more easily. Of course doing that would involve some pretty major over hauls of both the UI, because units refusing to fire without clear reason is incredibly frustrating, and the battle map design, because a lot of the maps have this weird undulating geography that makes direct fire kinda wonky. The former could be fixed in part by greying out the range indicator past the point where it is obstructed (this would be a nice change even without any rework considering how opaque LoS is currently), but the latter would be a fairly huge peice of work.
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Dec 17, 2021 12:31
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Vagabong posted:Messing about with firing arcs and damage falloff would be a good way to increase unit and faction diversity; crossbows could split the difference between and gunpowder units in terms of their ability to arc their fire, and higher tier units/more archery focused factions could pull off shooting at a 170⁰ angle while still hitting more easily. But another change that would certainly help with ranged superiority on the campaign level even if not on an individual balance level and more importantly wouldn't touch MP balance at all is make ammo subject to replenishment. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Dec 17, 2021 |
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Dec 17, 2021 12:40
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Playing warhammer 2 for the first time in a couple of years and have the traditional question: are there any no-brainer mods I should install? Especially graphical stuff? I went to the workshop and filtered by graphical, then looked at the collections that included the most popular mods. I was hoping for something like "graphical improvement collection" but instead it looks like basically all the most popular collections are based on a total overhaul called SFO? I was going to avoid any overhauls but maybe I should give SFO a whirl? The thing is I don't even really know the vanilla game that well...
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Dec 17, 2021 12:42
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Ravenfood posted:Very optimistically, in WH1 ranged was useful but not as dominant as it is in WH2. In 2, they changed how arcing fire targets enemies and changed (increased) the angle archers can fire over friendly units. They also gave more factions SEMs. The former choice was seemingly done to make more ranged-heavy armies possible because that's really just the elf power fantasy. Also they made darkshards for some reason which kicked off an arms race. yeah i hope they do all of these things, they seem like very good ideas. in general i'd like the factions to return to being more specialised (aside from explicitly generalist factions) and it seeeeems like TW3 is going for that so i'm cautiously optimistic after the insane power creep of the last few TW2 DLCs left me kinda cold.
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Dec 17, 2021 12:56
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Actually, minor anecdote that shows a bit what I mean about direct fire vs indirect. A little while ago, I played the Kislev mod that includes a unit called the guilder streltsi. They are a slight upgrade on normal streltsi, which in that mod are effectively a unit of Empire halberdiers who also happen to be Empire handgunners. The guilder variant gets 20 more armor (for a total of 50) and a onetime activated ability that halves range and increases damage by 30%ish. On paper, a near ideal unit. In practice also easily the best unit Kislev has in the mod, and my endgame stacks were basically a lord, caster hero, bear priest, maybe an artillery piece, and basically 15 streltsi. Maybe a cavalry unit or two. However, this stack was nowhere equivalent in terms of just steamrolling enemies like an all-shades or SoA stack or equivalent, for a few reasons. No SEMs like hydra or really durable heroes to act as anchors to protect your line was part of it. (Kislev is fairly hero limited). But the biggest part was that while the first few volleys could instantly delete a unit or two, it was a lot slower to really bring all that firepower to bear because the guns had to be moved around to the flanks to actually do that killing. And while that worked, thanks to the melee capability of the streltsi, it took noticeably longer (and so I took more casualties in the meantime) and getting decent firing angles took time. I also couldn't prioritize high value targets as much (like other archers) because of the direct fire and relatively short range, because ranges have been steadily increasing in WH2 as well. It still says something that the best way to play the modded Kislev is as close to 100% streltsi as possible, but it also showed some of the limitations caused by direct fire and I liked having those a lot.
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Dec 17, 2021 14:17
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fuf posted:Playing warhammer 2 for the first time in a couple of years and have the traditional question: are there any no-brainer mods I should install? Especially graphical stuff? Nah, you def don’t need SFO to have a good experience, in some cases SFO actually makes it worse (overall a decent overhaul, don’t get me wrong). The best trick for the workshop is usually to sort by most downloaded all time and most for the last 1-3 months then skim the first 5-10 pages of those sections. You’ll see like 90% of the worthwhile mods that way
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Dec 17, 2021 15:03
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fuf posted:Playing warhammer 2 for the first time in a couple of years and have the traditional question: are there any no-brainer mods I should install? Especially graphical stuff? https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2427521558 Other stuff I like/recommend: WH1 VH Upkeep (reduces the massive penalty for supply lines on Very Hard): https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1161429251 Home region movement bonus (so enemy whack-a-mole/chasing armies that are afraid of you is less of a thing): https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1150214282
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Dec 17, 2021 15:05
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Are you guys using Ungor raiders with Taurox when you “delete the world in one turn”? Yes, Cygors rock but I tend to leave them home in my Taurox armies. A fast blender of an army doesn’t care about ranged in the enemy army. I’d probably worry more about spearmen.
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Dec 17, 2021 15:30
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You might have to pause or use slow mo more often so hopefully your mom doesn’t like walk into your room when you are because how embarrassing
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Dec 17, 2021 15:34
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Twigand Berries posted:Are you guys using Ungor raiders with Taurox when you “delete the world in one turn”? Yes, Cygors rock but I tend to leave them home in my Taurox armies. A fast blender of an army doesn’t care about ranged in the enemy army. I’d probably worry more about spearmen.
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Dec 17, 2021 15:48
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I have not tried to speedrun a Taurox game, but ungor raiders are extremely strong against early game armies and near worthless against late-game infantry. They have good model count and high speed, so they can quickly position themselves and take out enemy ranged (often having a 2:1 or 3:1 advantage) and then flank the front line to shoot spearmen in the back. Because they have such high speed, they’re great for practicing when you have a unit being chased by melee infantry and another unit free to shoot the pursuers. My early hordes for beastmen are ideally ~12 ungor raiders, lord, caster, rest melee. Ungor raiders are worse than worthless if the enemy has heavy cavalry you can’t stop, and cygors are essentially slightly weaker giants that have a massive trebuchet on their back. A couple cygors will trivialize anything less than a 5+ dragon stack as they can lob a boulder on any expensive heavy units so the rest of your army gets to fight 3/4 health greatswords or whatever. Ultimately, the perfect comp for taurox is ~17 plain minotaurs. They steamroll anything less than 20 vampires, and probably do OK against that.
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Dec 17, 2021 15:56
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KittyEmpress posted:The Slaanesh roster looks absolutely horrible for the current game, am I the only one that feels that way? In Warhammer 2, melee infantry can already turn (most of) ranged units to mincemeat and do some serious damage with little losses, if they charge an already engaged unit from the flank, even on VH. The issue is that melee infantry units usually have around 30 speed, which prevents them from effectively doing either. From a brief glance, the Slaaneshi roster gets around that issue by almost all of the units on it (outside of Marauders, who look like being the disposable anvil of the roster) having anywhere from 50 to 120 Speed. Honestly, Slaaneshi actually looks like a really fun and viable roster, although it will probably turn into micromanagement hell on higher difficulties
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Dec 17, 2021 15:58
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:, so for example there is a mod that rolls the city growth numbers back to how they were before CA did the most recent change: quote:The Rakarth Update prompted me to make it as the absurdity of increasing growth point cost by 60% each level made the prospect of playing Dwarfs or Tomb Kings look like a painful experience. As a casual player and not careful notes reader, this is explaining a lot about my experience of a current Khalida campaign.
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Dec 17, 2021 15:59
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Today’s thing is a Fiends spotlight: https://mobile.twitter.com/totalwar/status/1471857721162956803 Look at ‘em go 
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Dec 17, 2021 16:16
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The animations on those things are amazing, holy poo poo.
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Dec 17, 2021 16:23
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Its like watching a weird mascot do a dance. I can't look away.
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Dec 17, 2021 16:31
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Fancy Tomb Scorpion
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Dec 17, 2021 18:46
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Dr Christmas posted:Today’s thing is a Fiends spotlight: Lol holy poo poo, those animations are absolutely incredible. Every single reveal has me thinking "oh poo poo, THAT is gonna be my first faction at launch!" How the hell am I ever gonna choose?
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Dec 17, 2021 18:50
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https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/rim9l8/potential_leak_map_with_all_missing_parts/ Potentially real "leak" of the WH3 map. Nothing really TOO shocking, but note that they managed to squeeze Wissenland onto the map, so there's definitely potential for an Elspeth von Draken start. Also the thread is full of people not understanding how projections can warp the look and size of things on the map.
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Dec 17, 2021 19:16
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Gonkish posted:https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/rim9l8/potential_leak_map_with_all_missing_parts/ I suppose Nippon or Khuresh always had about as much chance of happening as Amazons, even after the Cathay reveal. But what we're getting still has me wondering what CA is going to do for the inevitable fire & water dragons.
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Dec 17, 2021 20:08
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Raygereio posted:But what we're getting still has me wondering what CA is going to do for the inevitable fire & water dragons. Hopefully somewhere far from Cathay. It’s boring when every member of a race starts in the same general area.
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Dec 17, 2021 20:11
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I imagine the first major DLC's are going to expand the map east and south, adding Nippon DLC and Nagashizzar for the undead apocalypse, they probably aren't keeping Nagash as a secret and are just saving him for a 20$ DLC. Have a TW2-3 graphical comparison for the campaign map by the way  You'll have to ignore the motion blur, I like 3 defining the terrain better and looking less messy. Ra Ra Rasputin fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Dec 17, 2021 |
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Dec 17, 2021 20:45
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Ravenfood posted:Very optimistically, in WH1 ranged was useful but not as dominant as it is in WH2. In 2, they changed how arcing fire targets enemies and changed (increased) the angle archers can fire over friendly units. They also gave more factions SEMs. The former choice was seemingly done to make more ranged-heavy armies possible because that's really just the elf power fantasy. Also they made darkshards for some reason which kicked off an arms race. This is a good post and I really want to emphasize that "ranged units are infinitely better and are a no-brainer choice even in non-tryhard play" was largely a TWW2 invention. TWW1 ranged massing was so comparably ineffective that when Wood Elves came out people threw loving tantrum fits because blobbing archers with them was a terrible losing strategy that would get you dumpstered even by the AI. They had to hotfix buff their archers like three times so people could play prototype versions of the ranged massing that came to dominate TWW2(which still weren't remotely as strong). The changes to how arcing fire worked, coupled with the release of insanely overtuned spammable ranged units like Darkshards and Shades, basically led to the situation we have now.
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Dec 17, 2021 21:04
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The thing is that for a static, close up image I will not be surprised if WH2's map actually looks better than WH3 from like a "realistic graphics" perspective, but when zoomed all the way out or constantly moving around, i.e. the way you interact with the map while playing 99% of the time, the art style of WH3's map will look vastly better because it won't alias to poo poo all the time. Just look at the trees in the background and towers of the city to see what I mean. I think it won't take very long for the part of the community who currently don't like the new map style to come around after playing WH2 and WH3 side by side. vvvv very much agreed, there are a handful of games I can think of where that is definitely true. Mazz fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Dec 17, 2021 |
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Dec 17, 2021 21:11
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Realistic graphics also tend to age really poorly. If they plan on supporting the third installment for a long time stylized graphics will be better in the long run.
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Dec 17, 2021 21:12
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Total Warhams is pretty stylized honestly. Someone did a side by side comparison to the faction equivalents in TESV and you can tell it's stylized. Not to the levels of Warcraft 3 perhaps but stylized all the same.
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Dec 17, 2021 21:15
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Ultra-quick heavy chargers sound like a pretty good counter to endless archers, honestly.
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Dec 17, 2021 21:18
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The simplified terrain also is likely a sign it's something they had to do to make it easier to have corruption textures for the many, many different types in the game now.
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Dec 17, 2021 21:26
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Might also run a little nicer especially when we get the big map
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Dec 17, 2021 21:32
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The Chad Jihad posted:Might also run a little nicer especially when we get the big map Yeah, that's what I'm hoping too.
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Dec 17, 2021 23:02
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Kanos posted:This is a good post and I really want to emphasize that "ranged units are infinitely better and are a no-brainer choice even in non-tryhard play" was largely a TWW2 invention. TWW1 ranged massing was so comparably ineffective that when Wood Elves came out people threw loving tantrum fits because blobbing archers with them was a terrible losing strategy that would get you dumpstered even by the AI. They had to hotfix buff their archers like three times so people could play prototype versions of the ranged massing that came to dominate TWW2(which still weren't remotely as strong). E: actually the wardancer spam kind of reminds me of how drycha plays now, tbh. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Dec 17, 2021 |
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Dec 17, 2021 23:14
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The Chad Jihad posted:Might also run a little nicer especially when we get the big map I suspect they essentially rebuilt their campaign map tech from the ground up with the lessons learned from the previous games. The level of sophistication they want to bring to bear, and if they want that full world map eventually at the end of tw3 for IE, is going to demand it. Nerds with nothing better to do will bitch about it now and completely forget about it once we're all playing the game and have new hills to die on. Much like those nasty elf archers will die when my Slannesh units neatly flank them and crush them faster than they can target and their screens can respond.
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Dec 17, 2021 23:16
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i would really like a campaign map that doesnt make my graphics card fans go apeshit
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Dec 18, 2021 02:15
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i reinstalled 2 in anticipation of 3 and played through the sisters of twilight campaign for the first time. it is a fun campaign, but it seems to have some pretty serious bugs - e.g. the game doesn't acknowledge that *i won the campaign*, and they wouldn't give me the dragon quest because i had a wizard in my army when i reached level 10 or 12 or whatever it was. i suspect that the reason the game didn't accept that i had, in fact, won was because i left the high elfs keep gaean vale until i killed throt since it seemed incredibly inconvenient to attack and didn't want to piss off the entire remaining game world. still good faction. good idea with daith, good ideas with the teleportation thing. would play again.
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Dec 18, 2021 02:22
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juggalo baby coffin posted:i would really like a campaign map that doesnt make my graphics card fans go apeshit Same. Hitting "next turn" shouldn't be the ONE thing that sends my graphics card nuts.
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Dec 18, 2021 02:31
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Ravenfood posted:E: but yeah overall just remove arcing ranged fire in almost all respects from the game and all future warhammer games. Restoring a lot of arcs to WH1 (excepting elves) would be great. Straight up removing 100% of AP for tier 1 archers would also be great - it's fine for an empire archer to "hit" his heavily armored target and not damage it. WH1 crossbowmen didn't even really pack a punch vs shields/heavy armor, it really made them feel different to quarrelers. Now even skaven slingers can even damage tier 3 end game armored demi-god melee. Skaven ww1 style armies with machine guns snipers artillery and nukes is 100% okay to remain op as gently caress.
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Dec 18, 2021 02:35
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Ultra-quick heavy chargers sound like a pretty good counter to endless archers, honestly. On my Ikit runs the hardest army I run into is when the AI manages to poop out a proper Brettonian army.
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Dec 18, 2021 02:50
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Playing around with dwarves for the first time in a while. What are people’s preferred rune setups or go to equipment load outs? Thorgrim for what it’s worth.
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Dec 18, 2021 03:34
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