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I suppose the main problem I see with the game's easy inputs and neutered footsies and other attempts like Fantasy Strike (removing crouching) is that it teaches bad habits and produces a neutral and conditioning that won't help them if they decide to jump directly into something like Darkstalkers or Alpha. These make people worse at FGs, not better
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Dec 19, 2021 15:02
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 12:33 |
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Dishwasher posted:I suppose the main problem I see with the game's easy inputs and neutered footsies and other attempts like Fantasy Strike (removing crouching) is that it teaches bad habits and produces a neutral and conditioning that won't help them if they decide to jump directly into something like Darkstalkers or Alpha. lmao where's the quote about Daigo and Nuki getting poo poo for playing Alpha because it's a dumb baby game and REAL GAMERS only play ST
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Dec 19, 2021 15:34
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Games in every genre play differently, and getting good at them does not make your worse at the other games beyond the universal "oh wait that doesn't work like this in this game." The problem with simplified inputs is you do need to balance your game around them, you can't just copy what you've been doing and expect it to work just fine.
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Dec 19, 2021 15:39
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the problem with simplified inputs is that they do zero to actually help new players get in. if anything they put new players off because they hit the realization that it isnt an execution barrier, they just suck at the game.
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Dec 19, 2021 15:41
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Tekken 7 is easily the most popular fighting game among casual crowd and that game is obtuse as gently caress.
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Dec 19, 2021 15:44
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Jack Trades posted:Tekken 7 is easily the most popular fighting game among casual crowd and that game is obtuse as gently caress. Twenty moves where the inputs are "Right and The A Button" or whatever are more preferable to a casual player than even one move that's "okay so you have to press Right and then Down and then roll from Down to Forward to like Diagonally Up and Forward and then press the A Button and if you press the button too early it won't work and you'll eat poo poo and if you press it too late it might still work but you'll do it right over your opponent's head and then you eat poo poo."
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Dec 19, 2021 15:51
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Arzachel posted:lmao where's the quote about Daigo and Nuki getting poo poo for playing Alpha because it's a dumb baby game and REAL GAMERS only play ST Definitely not trying to be weird. I do feel like removing crouching and the whole crouching attack meta wholesale is a pretty massive change and will be the primary thing to get used to upon moving to another 2d fighter. The crouch and sweep is in almost every other 2d fighter. I don't think its too unreasonable to think there would be some resistance if someone is coming off 2000 hours of Fantasy Strike and has little exposure to other ones. Or maybe I'm just an idiot, that's cool too. Dishwasher fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 15:53
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Bleck posted:Twenty moves where the inputs are "Right and The A Button" or whatever are more preferable to a casual player than even one move that's "okay so you have to press Right and then Down and then roll from Down to Forward to like Diagonally Up and Forward and then press the A Button and if you press the button too early it won't work and you'll eat poo poo and if you press it too late it might still work but you'll do it right over your opponent's head and then you eat poo poo." The poster boy(s) that's on the cover of Tekken 7 has way more complex inputs for their stuff than Ryu for example.
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Dec 19, 2021 15:58
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Jack Trades posted:Tekken 7 is easily the most popular fighting game among casual crowd and that game is obtuse as gently caress. Tekken is popular, by my anedotal observations, because, a) it’s “realistic” and like actual martial arts and thus not for children like all those cartoon games, and b) you can mash with every character and cool poo poo comes out.
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Dec 19, 2021 16:00
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also i think a 3d fighting game just makes more sense to casual people than a 2d one. like sidestepping/dodging back is easier to parse than blocking and whatever a 'crossup' is. and since tekken is largely lacking in projectiles you kinda just run into each other's faces and mash at a casual level.
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Dec 19, 2021 16:02
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I don't really see the slippery slope argument here. Good players will adapt to succeed at any game whether or not it's got one-button ultimates or 360 inputs. Who can succeed might shift a little bit at the margins depending on the complexity of the game, but any fighter requires a whole lot of time, practice, and muscle memory to intuit. Very simple games can have a lot of depth, highly technical games can be ultimately shallow, the most important thing is keeping enough players involved so that strategies have time to be explored and your online isn't fukken dead in a week.
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Dec 19, 2021 16:02
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Jack Trades posted:The poster boy(s) that's on the cover of Tekken 7 has way more complex inputs for their stuff than Ryu for example. If you don't know fighting games you sit down with Ryu and put out a couple of stubby punches and kicks. You sit down with any Tekken character and at least 20 different cool moves come out easily
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Dec 19, 2021 16:03
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Tonfa posted:If you don't know fighting games you sit down with Ryu and put out a couple of stubby punches and kicks. You sit down with any Tekken character and at least 20 different cool moves come out easily It's this, Tekken have incredibly accessible cool (and extensive) movelists, and most of the hard input stuff is on specific characters for specific uses.
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Dec 19, 2021 16:19
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I think the idea that simple inputs exist to make casual players lose less to veterans (and thus devs are stupid because that wont happen and vets will just use their new tool to win more) is wrong. It seems way more likely to me that simple inputs exist because it makes it easy easier to do flashy cool stuff when mashing with your other casual friends. Especially in a game based off DFO where a major part of three spectacle was huge roomwide attacks that you could bind to a single press.
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Dec 19, 2021 16:28
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Also release is summer 2022 and they confirmed ghostblade, f mech, and troubleshooter https://twitter.com/AFGCNews/status/1472543936732352514
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Dec 19, 2021 16:31
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Dec 19, 2021 16:32
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Dishwasher posted:Definitely not trying to be weird. I do feel like removing crouching and the whole crouching attack meta wholesale is a pretty massive change and will be the primary thing to get used to upon moving to another 2d fighter. The crouch and sweep is in almost every other 2d fighter. I don't think its too unreasonable to think there would be some resistance if someone is coming off 2000 hours of Fantasy Strike and has little exposure to other ones. Or maybe I'm just an idiot, that's cool too. If someone wants to play a trad fighting game after playing Fantasy Strike (or Lethal League or Nidhogg or whatever) they'll learn the mechanics. It's not like playing Street Fighter makes you unable to grasp what an airdash is. The bigger issue with Fantasy Strike is that it's real bad
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Dec 19, 2021 17:20
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Simplified inputs+gatlings are great and not just for babby's first FG or trying to give a 7 year old a chance to beat Daigo or whatever - I don't have much time this weekend so I'm playing more DNF than KOF while I can cause I can jump in and press buttons to do the cool stuff the character does instead of basically only using normals and sometimes doing a fireball motion to see if something comes out. I also wanna juggle game time with Halo, Forza, Ninja Gaiden and stuff and those games are great cause I can hop in and out with minimal muscle memory to do cool stuff. But there's room for both! When I do have time to grind it out I'm totally more interested in BBCF and KOF over DNF cause learning and executing all the moves and combos is also fun and surely offers more variety, like I can't imagine Guile/Ryu/Chun-Li existing together the way they do in a game with simple inputs. Graphics are disappointing but I'm hype for the KOF release! Pressing buttons feels awesome and chunky and the roster is groovin. DNF seems cool - kinda just makes me wanna play more BBCF/Strive but could use more time in it to see what it's got goin on.
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Dec 19, 2021 17:31
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So I am fighting game baby, and I really do appreciate the simplified inputs because it means my mind is less on pushing what feels like arbitrary commands and more on getting the move I want in the situation is needed in. Like, if I want to use an anti air special when the opponent is in the air, I can press down and X in DNF Duel rather then try and do a Z motion in the span of like half a second, when the timing for that is probably gone. Really more then anything, I had a big problem with the motion inputs just straight up not working consistently when I tried them in certain games. FighterZ had no problem taking my quarter circle inputs (though I have never gotten the half circle to work in that game), but SFV had a giant stick up its rear end whenever I tried, and wouldn't accept it. Haven't had much issue with Strive's inputs either, though I am using a character with no Z motion (Anji). Knowing the guy will do the thing when I tell him to, instead of really having to force the input, makes me a lot more likely to continue playing. Oddly enough I bought Centralfiction recently and it seems to accept my Z motion inputs better than my quarter circles, and the half circle back + forward motion has worked every single time I've tried. There's clearly something more going on under the hood then it seems. Also as far as Fantasy Strike, that really did help me feel more comfortable playing more advanced games. I'm still pretty bad at it, but it did help teach me about stuff like spacing and punishing whiffs.
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Dec 19, 2021 17:55
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yeah there's something more going on under the hood, every game is gonna have its own rules and timing for how it interprets inputs. snk games are famously strict for instance. there's not really any set exact timing leniency and input reading system at play across the whole genre, it varies from game to game. think of it like how every racing game has different physics for drifting. its a common mechanic across every racing game but the timing on how you're expected to do it varies slightly from game to game.
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Dec 19, 2021 18:29
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Momomo posted:Oddly enough I bought Centralfiction recently and it seems to accept my Z motion inputs better than my quarter circles, and the half circle back + forward motion has worked every single time I've tried. There's clearly something more going on under the hood then it seems. centralfiction is really lenient with z motions yeah. if you go into training mode you can see how your motion and button press are interacting to figure out what's up with your quarter circles. the thing i've noticed is that you can hit the button early on a z motion (during the down portion rather than the down-forward portion) and as long as you do follow through into down-forward it'll come out, whereas the QCs don't have assistance like that (so that when you do a down normal -> down-forward normal the QC move doesn't accidentally come out instead). the half-circle back + forward motions might be easier for you to time correctly because there is a very obvious cue for when to hit the button (simultaneously with slamming forward)
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Dec 19, 2021 18:50
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Arzachel posted:lmao where's the quote about Daigo and Nuki getting poo poo for playing Alpha because it's a dumb baby game and REAL GAMERS only play ST I don't get it, I'm pretty sure they competed in ST
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Dec 19, 2021 19:00
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Games should really warn you before you can queue up on a game with rematch set to “unlimited”
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Dec 19, 2021 20:26
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poe meater posted:I don't get it, I'm pretty sure they competed in ST Not until later, both of them got their start in Alpha and VSav
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Dec 19, 2021 20:27
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I feel like the unified field theory of why Fighting Games Are Hard and Not As Popular is that to get good you have to Lab. And Lab a lot, and not just in a mindless practice way but literally setting up specific scenarios and learning how to react to and punish them, because Being Good is both a huge knowledge test and a reaction test. I don't know if there's another genre of game that functions in this way. I think Tekken is popular because it's easy to make your character do stuff (simple inputs, relatively easy combos due to generous buffering) and there's a lot of cool stuff you character can do (huge movelist)--the other side, defense, is incredibly byzantine, but new players don't care because they can make their character do cool stuff.
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Dec 19, 2021 20:28
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I think its because theyre fast. things happen all the time with very little notice in fighting games. makes people feel stressed out. dotas and so on are very obtuse and complicated but they have pretty leisurely pace mostly
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Dec 19, 2021 20:55
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Gutcruncher posted:
Why do you care if this is enabled? If you're a good enough player to never engage with the mechanic you should never be mashing enough to even notice its existence. This is even dumber than people complaining about TL's auto combos.
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Dec 19, 2021 21:14
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mashing owns and i mash out stuff whenever possible. especially in melty blood, where crouching and hitting 2a for a solid minute is the pinnacle of the gameplay experience. but also its not about 'good' or 'bad' or 'needing it' or w/e. for some people it just feels like complete dogshit. they care because it makes the game feel worse to play.
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Dec 19, 2021 21:16
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It's less that getting good means you have to lab and more that having fun means you have to lab. It doesn't even have to actually be true, the impression they have to grind to have fun might be enough to make them bounce off. The niche genre problem is that the people playing online are typically going to be the most hardcore, which perpetuates the stereotype of Needing to Grind. Simplifying inputs always seems like such a huge trap, autocombos tend to be worse than real combos and don't really have a middle ground to transition to them, and arcsys seems to have a hardon for making directional specials worse in some way compared to their equivalent command special
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Dec 19, 2021 21:29
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Good matchmaking fixes like, 75% of the problem you are discussing no matter the actual input methods of the fighting game.
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Dec 19, 2021 21:56
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Endorph posted:mashing owns and i mash out stuff whenever possible. especially in melty blood, where crouching and hitting 2a for a solid minute is the pinnacle of the gameplay experience. mashing 2a wouldn't give you an autocombo!!!!
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Dec 19, 2021 22:02
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dangerdoom volvo posted:I think its because theyre fast. things happen all the time with very little notice in fighting games. makes people feel stressed out. dotas and so on are very obtuse and complicated but they have pretty leisurely pace mostly I think also a big part of it is that in a moba you can blame other people for losing/rely on other people to carry you to a win, while in a 1v1 fighting game if you lose you can't scapegoat anybody, you have to accept that it was your fault
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Dec 19, 2021 22:02
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Mashing Charlotta's easy mode EX antiair when its normally a [2]8 charge input was always worth it.
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Dec 19, 2021 22:08
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Faffel posted:Why do you care if this is enabled? If you're a good enough player to never engage with the mechanic you should never be mashing enough to even notice its existence. This is even dumber than people complaining about TL's auto combos. In KOF It’s far from game breaking and doesn’t usually get in the way and overall the game is still extremely good, but as was mentioned before a “stylish mode combo” does nothing to help onboard the players that it’s supposed to, but they’re still just building it into games anyways even if it’s detrimental. Type Lumina being a huge recent example that even you brought up. It has total dogshit autocombos to give a helping hand to new players, but in the process making the game much worse. It’s especially egregious here because this is a series that up until now anybody could just mash buttons and it would probably do cool poo poo. Would you really not prefer a Type Lumina that allows you to switch that off?
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Dec 19, 2021 22:17
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Just make games with easy to use, fast, stable matchmaking and and people will play online. No one has done this yet.
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Dec 19, 2021 22:29
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Xad posted:I think also a big part of it is that in a moba you can blame other people for losing/rely on other people to carry you to a win, while in a 1v1 fighting game if you lose you can't scapegoat anybody, you have to accept that it was your fault You can always blame lag, unfortunately with rollback netcode this is quickly becoming a less plausible tactic.
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Dec 19, 2021 22:33
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Smoking Crow posted:ok so here's my real take: my take stays the same
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Dec 19, 2021 22:42
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porfiria posted:I feel like the unified field theory of why Fighting Games Are Hard and Not As Popular is that to get good you have to Lab. And Lab a lot, and not just in a mindless practice way but literally setting up specific scenarios and learning how to react to and punish them, because Being Good is both a huge knowledge test and a reaction test. I don't know if there's another genre of game that functions in this way. absolutely not for games with long combos yeah you need to lab the combos. that's often a very small time investment for two or three combos that can honestly see you through forever if you're not shooting for tournament-level skill, though obviously ymmv depending on game and character. all of the "learning how to react" stuff can be done in real matches, is best done in real matches instead of the lab. yes it means eating losses while you figure things out but at least you aren't in the goddamn lab. obviously if you enjoy labbing then whatever, figure out every single scenario in the lab if you want. but if you don't, then just play and build your instincts through real fights of course if people perceive "you have to lab every scenario" as true, then many of them are going to be turned off by that even if it isn't the case
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Dec 19, 2021 22:42
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Gutcruncher posted:Would you really not prefer a Type Lumina that allows you to switch that off? We've been over this a thousand times, the autocombo in Lumina lets you confirm even if you've spent all your normals and the unique autocombo normal has great reach and gets used for actual good combos. Like, type Lumina has more blockstun and pushback than old Melty. You can't physically chain more than 3 jabs even if the game would let you, why is this even an issue?
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Dec 19, 2021 22:52
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I have some theorycraft stuff on why Stylish modes are actually bad, but, I've never been able to play video games with my now 5 year old and she keeps asking if we can play BBCF where she beats me up using stylish mode while I dink around and practice the real stuff so I changed my mind it's actually good
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Dec 19, 2021 23:56
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