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Quake wasn't much competition for Duke3d; looking up the dates it may have only come only a year and bit later, but in practice none of us kids had PCs with fancy voodoo cards in them so Quake might as well have been a lifetime away. Seriously, the software rending mode of the demo ran like a slideshow on any family PC. And the Duke3d demo was there, it spread like wildfire and could run on any PC that had a cd tray or web browser. By the time family/school PCs could be expected to run that sort of stuff it was already the era of Quake3 and Unreal. (In my experience, obviously) Redneck Rampage was a nasty shock, games just being generically bad wasn't something my friends group was really capable of grasping yet, despite being High Schoolers. Shooty games are good, right?
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Dec 19, 2021 07:33
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I played Body Count and I'm willing to consider that worse than Tekwar
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Dec 19, 2021 07:41
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ZogrimAteMyHamster posted:It was in such an awkward position; presenting itself as being way ahead of the aging Doom/idTech1 (which was of course true) This is kind of only half true. Build was certainly more dynamic than idTech1, but only through brute force. Forgoing any compiled information for just having the data and blasting it to the renderer with a bunch of arcane assembler code held together with bubble-gum. Doom notably can actually do more visually complex environments faster on weaker/lesser hardware (especially with less CPU cache) than Build can. In terms of actually modifying their engines from where they left off, idTech1 will take a lot of punishment until the cracks start to show, Build however starts to fail almost immediately. For example between myself and AlexMax (Odamex dev and another netcode developer at Nightdive, she did the high framerate rendering for the Unity Doom port joined us for Quake's multiplayer), when doing updated netcode designs we've found between us that while Doom's limitations simply come out to be informational efficiency (how and how often level information needs to be synced), Build (Blood notably) had the single worst time doing any kind of netcode at all, noting that right up to and even after launch the whole portal system was still not syncing to clients properly at all, and was extremely order of operation dependent or they would just break entirely, not to mention the numerous issues of having to sync every single piece of level and object information that existed just so it could all render properly. Rocket Pan fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 07:45
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Fair point. Should have been clearer on Build being unreasonably volatile/demanding in general compared to idTech1. The netcode stuff is new to me, however. I'm hardly versed in netcode magic (i.e. not at all) but just reading that reveals that in more ways than one, Build was generally some loving horrible garbage under the hood.
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Dec 19, 2021 08:05
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david_a posted:You guys are triggering me. Unreal Tournament 3 Yeah I was confused - I knew Unreal 2 wasn't very good but I was thinking when the gently caress was there an Unreal 3?
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Dec 19, 2021 09:14
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Serephina posted:Quake wasn't much competition for Duke3d; looking up the dates it may have only come only a year and bit later, but in practice none of us kids had PCs with fancy voodoo cards in them so Quake might as well have been a lifetime away. Seriously, the software rending mode of the demo ran like a slideshow on any family PC. And the Duke3d demo was there, it spread like wildfire and could run on any PC that had a cd tray or web browser. By the time family/school PCs could be expected to run that sort of stuff it was already the era of Quake3 and Unreal. (In my experience, obviously) Quake didn't require a 3d card, most people played it in software mode. That said, it required a nice Pentium, so it's true some people had to wait one or two years until having a new computer. Ironically the same happened to me with Duke 3d, my 486 66mhz/4mb ram could run Doom without problems but it was a bit too slow for Duke 3d, so I had to wait until my next computer to play it.
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Dec 19, 2021 09:22
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The main selling point of Build games was they would run great on your 2 year old PC vs Quake which needed a Pentium. Edit: missed the final page of the thread where everyone else already said this 
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Dec 19, 2021 11:07
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Angry_Ed posted:I played Body Count and I'm willing to consider that worse than Tekwar OP BODY COUNT: BETTER THAN TEK WAR?? + Rats + Middle eastern terrorists + Excellent sewer levels + Soundtrack actually stabs you in eardrums with a screwdriver + Featuring guest spritework from id software’s mega-hit Doom - No pre-mission briefings from William Shatner - No psychedelic pit traps - Soundtrack does not trigger acute existential anxiety
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Dec 19, 2021 11:15
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You guys clearly haven't played janky Eastern European FPS games for the Amiga 600: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay654E1wz98 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL5OJq4IfEw&t=408s
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Dec 19, 2021 15:12
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szary posted:You guys clearly haven't played janky Eastern European FPS games for the Amiga 600: I wish we had more of this neat mixture of adventure game + first person shooter like Realms of the Haunting and to a lesser extent, System Shock. I suppose the later Resident Evils, 7 and Village, are the closest to this.
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Dec 19, 2021 15:52
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szary posted:You guys clearly haven't played janky Eastern European FPS games for the Amiga 600: You say that like it's a bad thing They do look objectively terrible, though for different reasons. What the hell is going on with the gunplay of the first one? That's not an awkward way to have to play fps games at all. The second one looks unremarkable aside from the practically unplayable framerate; if it was even half as smooth as the first game it probably wouldn't be a bad shooter. It wouldn't be much good, but at least tolerable. Perhaps.All the way from Russia, here's "Raising Dead": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNHBYQ3vHOg Nothing in this game makes any sense. It's also complete dogshit.
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Dec 19, 2021 16:20
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Convex posted:The main selling point of Build games was they would run great on your 2 year old PC vs Quake which needed a Pentium. That and swear words.
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Dec 19, 2021 16:20
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ZogrimAteMyHamster posted:You say that like it's a bad thing The first one looks like a couple fps mechanics grafted onto a dungeon crawler RPG (like Dungeon Master), which there were plenty of on the Amiga already. The whole point and click to attack, orthogonal grid environment, inventory in the center of the screen status bar stuff is all extant in that subgenre.
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Dec 19, 2021 16:26
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Hank Morgan posted:That and swear words. Redneck Rampage had a special downloadable cuss pack. A true pioneer that no future fps has ever caught up to.
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Dec 19, 2021 17:00
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ponzicar posted:Redneck Rampage had a special downloadable cuss pack. A true pioneer that no future fps has ever caught up to. Blood on the Sand had curse upgrades, but then, it was not DLC nor an FPS so it's disqualified either way.
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Dec 19, 2021 17:31
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I loaded up Timesplitters 2 to see if I was forgetting something, and literally all you have to to is go into the options and turn off lookspring and it's fine? It's very autoaim reliant as you might expect of a pre-Halo console shooter, but as long as you're willing to accept that you can look around and shoot guys without much issue. The precision aiming mode is a bit of an awkward throwback, but just... don't use it? 
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Dec 19, 2021 18:03
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Lork posted:I loaded up Timesplitters 2 to see if I was forgetting something, and literally all you have to to is go into the options and turn off lookspring and it's fine? It's very autoaim reliant as you might expect of a pre-Halo console shooter, but as long as you're willing to accept that you can look around and shoot guys without much issue. The precision aiming mode is a bit of an awkward throwback, but just... don't use it? The only time it should ever be used is when you're sniping some mook, especially that fucker (and his twin) high up in the dam on the Siberia mission. There's literally no good reason to use it outside of sniping.
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Dec 19, 2021 18:50
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtpqv2YmSb4
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Dec 19, 2021 20:15
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Hell yeah, 3D skyboxes.
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Dec 19, 2021 23:53
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The worst FPS I ever played for more than 1 minute was probably "Alien Cabal." 
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Dec 19, 2021 23:56
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Another strong contender: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Onrr4Z_xZwQ
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Dec 20, 2021 00:17
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Linguica posted:The worst FPS I ever played for more than 1 minute was probably "Alien Cabal." That has big "Wolf3D engine game released in 1995" energy.
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Dec 20, 2021 00:42
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Lork posted:I loaded up Timesplitters 2 to see if I was forgetting something, and literally all you have to to is go into the options and turn off lookspring and it's fine? It's very autoaim reliant as you might expect of a pre-Halo console shooter, but as long as you're willing to accept that you can look around and shoot guys without much issue. The precision aiming mode is a bit of an awkward throwback, but just... don't use it? Where is this option, its exactly what I was asking for when I had trouble Edit: Went back through all the control options as far as I know, nothing is called lookspring Barudak fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Dec 20, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 00:44
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You should be playing it like goldeneye and not using the "zoom" button.
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Dec 20, 2021 01:12
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Squeezy Farm posted:You should be playing it like goldeneye and not using the "zoom" button. When I turn, it snaps back slightly in the opposite direction of where I was going. So if I want my crosshair to naturally rest on something, I have to aim past it (but not too far) and then when it fights back against you to create its new resting place it'll be in the area you want it to be. Its awful.
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Dec 20, 2021 01:18
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Just wait for a remaster. It’s probably coming and will have more modern control options.
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Dec 20, 2021 01:42
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Idk how you're playing it but I don't remember ts2 having a cross hair unless you're in aim mode. It was like Goldeneye where there's heavy auto aim when hip firing and you only need to zoom for sniping. The zoom is where you get the Goldeneye style floaty crosshair that snaps like that.
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Dec 20, 2021 02:21
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Squeezy Farm posted:Idk how you're playing it but I don't remember ts2 having a cross hair unless you're in aim mode. It was like Goldeneye where there's heavy auto aim when hip firing and you only need to zoom for sniping. The zoom is where you get the Goldeneye style floaty crosshair that snaps like that. Im playing the original xbox release on my series console. I feel like Im gonna have to record what is happening so we all align what Im complaining about, because I continue to hope that much like look inversion being on by default there might be some way to fix this.
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Dec 20, 2021 02:30
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ZogrimAteMyHamster posted:Sure, since the source release stuff like eDuke32 has made the engine workable and not the absolute minefield of bugs and crashes it used to be, but there's a reason why id's older engines have gone on to much greater things post-source release while Build sits in the corner kicking its heels with mere stability (and safe door mechanics) as something to shout about. Doom was open sourced more than 2 years before Build and the Duke3D game code wasn't open sourced for another 3 years after that, so I don't think it's too surprising that Doom has had a lot more development. There's only so many people working on old 3D engines and once people have focused their efforts on one there's not much point in redoing it on another.
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Dec 20, 2021 07:21
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Barudak posted:Im playing the original xbox release on my series console. I feel like Im gonna have to record what is happening so we all align what Im complaining about, because I continue to hope that much like look inversion being on by default there might be some way to fix this.
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Dec 20, 2021 08:42
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Barudak posted:Where is this option, its exactly what I was asking for when I had trouble
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Dec 20, 2021 11:26
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pairofdimes posted:Doom was open sourced more than 2 years before Build and the Duke3D game code wasn't open sourced for another 3 years after that, so I don't think it's too surprising that Doom has had a lot more development. There's only so many people working on old 3D engines and once people have focused their efforts on one there's not much point in redoing it on another. I'm a build defender, but doom's engine is efficient and elegant in a way that lends kept very well to modding. Doom's engine is flexible and straightforward. Build is neat and I love it's quirks but there's a reason Carmack's code has had the longevity of appearing in games decades later.
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Dec 20, 2021 12:05
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pairofdimes posted:Doom was open sourced more than 2 years before Build and the Duke3D game code wasn't open sourced for another 3 years after that, so I don't think it's too surprising that Doom has had a lot more development. There's only so many people working on old 3D engines and once people have focused their efforts on one there's not much point in redoing it on another. The real reason, beyond the relatives dates of release of the source code, is that Doom/Quake were more popular than Duke 3d/Shadow Warrior/Blood. id software was famous for more years, same with J.C., etc. It's that simple.
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Dec 20, 2021 12:22
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Ken Silverman releasing BUILD under some bizarre homegrown license didn’t help either. Yes, Doom was also first released under a custom license, but I feel like it wasn’t as weird as BUILD, plus it was re-licensed as GPL less than two years later.
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Dec 20, 2021 14:55
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It doesn't help that BUILD is fairly, uh, weird, under the hood, and each game is entirely different code-wise, while the Doom engine is fairly clean and well organized and every game inherits from the same core Doom codebase so there's a lot of common ground on things like actor definition etc. Graf has been dealing with a lot of BUILD's eccentricities lately with Raze, and between that and one of the AMC TC guys I've heard a lot of fascinating stories...
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Dec 20, 2021 15:13
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I got Timesplitters 2 kind of working but for a game with such abhorent controls, starting with a level that hinges on headshots and stealth aiming is a bold choice. I had to look up a guide online to finish it too, as the health bars for objectives don't seem to work right and explosions seem to have a radius of 0
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Dec 20, 2021 15:16
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The Kins posted:It doesn't help that BUILD is fairly, uh, weird, under the hood, and each game is entirely different code-wise, while the Doom engine is fairly clean and well organized and every game inherits from the same core Doom codebase so there's a lot of common ground on things like actor definition etc. Yeah, i understand the reason Doom has so many ports and whole 'oh look I put Doom in a fridge!' viral videos comes not only thanks to Doom popularity, but thanks to Doom was a MSDOS game originally developed in NeXT computers. So John Carmack HAD to make the code structured in a way that OS and game layer were separated and modular. Which years later, made it ideal for new platform ports.
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Dec 20, 2021 15:26
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Yeah there's a bunch of x86 assembler under the hood which makes porting it troublesome, but it doesn't help that BUILD is one of the worst codebases I've ever seen in my entire life. The engine code: https://github.com/fabiensanglard/vanilla_duke3D/blob/master/SRC/ENGINE.C Duke3D code: https://github.com/fabiensanglard/vanilla_duke3D/blob/master/SRC/GAME.C Yes they are each a single massive file, bursting at the seams with easily maintainable code like this: code:
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Dec 20, 2021 15:39
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Volte posted:I've never really checked out the codebases for any of the ports but if they aren't functionally total rewrites then yikes Duke3D is also weird since actor code is weirdly split between Hardcoded Stuff and CON Scripting stuff, so some monsters are completely moddable, others are completely off-limits native code, and some straddle the line in weird ways. eDuke32 doesn't so much make things better as it lets CON scripting hijack the native systems in weird and un-wise ways. Whenever you see a "new" weapon in an eDuke32 mod, it's not actually a "new" weapon, it's hijacking an existing Duke3D weapon and telling it to pretend to be something else. Lots of weird poo poo like that.
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Dec 20, 2021 15:54
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I don't know how any of us can narrow down FPSes by quality when we have so many Valusoft, Sunstorm, Wizardworks, etc titles out there. Many a time spent browsing the bargain shelves at Staples or Walmart and randomly stumbling across gems like Civilization 4 Complete, Rise of Legends, Tribes Vengeance, or Impossible Creatures. 
Deakul fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Dec 22, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 16:06
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