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I feel like you're implying the Ancients were inherently bad people here and that doesn't track for me at all, sorry.
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Dec 20, 2021 19:57
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Meteion has tons of empathy for people! Her problem is not a lack of empathy it's that her reaction to the inextricable fact that existence begets suffering, that life is fundamentally meaningless, is to fall victim to nihlism and despair.
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Dec 20, 2021 19:59
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Did you actually read anything that happened in Elpis or did you just decide it's bad and skip reading any of it. Elpis is a horror show. People making, altering, and discarding life, even life clearly capable of intelligence and emotions. It's the very reason why Hermes cracks, he sees and understands how horrible Elpis' work is, and he can't hide behind his creation magic or the bland assurances of 'it's for the greater good.' And trapped in Amaurotine society, he doesn't have a healthy way to come to grips with those feelings. NPCs even warn you, thinking you're a familiar who happens to be sentient and have a soul, that you'd best be obedient or you'll be deleted. Arist posted:I feel like you're implying the Ancients were inherently bad people here and that doesn't track for me at all, sorry. The Ancients were just people. Amaurot is one of the more horrifying dystopias I've ever seen in fiction.
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Dec 20, 2021 19:59
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Cythereal posted:I think it accords perfectly. If you have empathy for other people, you will help them when they need help. I can count the number of times in the MSQ we put down our weapon against enemies in one hand I'm pretty sure. Usually it's after we've already beaten them up, in fact. The rolling up your sleeves and helping people out thing yeah, but often the way you help out is in fact fighting things they need you to fight. Also yeah no the idea that the Ancients lacked empathy is laughable, they have a relatively strange culture, but they spend all of Elpis being empathetic.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:00
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I think it's fair to say that Amaurotine empathy is dampened by the fact they're incapable of realizing the suffering non-Amaurotines are going through. They're not bad people but like Hermes says, death is a beautiful thing for them and they have difficulty adjusting to the fact it's not so for their creations. edit: Like there's a good reason Hydaelyn forbade the loporrits from using creation magic to make anything with a soul.
TGLT fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Dec 20, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 20:01
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Cythereal posted:Elpis is a horror show. People making, altering, and discarding life, even life clearly capable of intelligence and emotions. It's the very reason why Hermes cracks, he sees and understands how horrible Elpis' work is, and he can't hide behind his creation magic or the bland assurances of 'it's for the greater good.' And trapped in Amaurotine society, he doesn't have a healthy way to come to grips with those feelings. NPCs even warn you, thinking you're a familiar who happens to be sentient and have a soul, that you'd best be obedient or you'll be deleted. I guess this is what happens when you read a plot synopsis to get angry about, and then don't engage with the text at all. Remarkable.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:01
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Lord_Magmar posted:This mission statement doesn't really track with the thing you stated as what Meteion represents. But I do agree that it's pretty clear this is a major statement the game is making. It does also constantly make statements about hope in the face of despair, not giving into the feelings of pain and loss and moving forward. Estinien's line about having the bravery to look your enemy in the face and see yourself in him was also really good. the story is constantly pushing empathy and the importance of recognizing the humanity and shared experiences between people. it's why we go to Elpis and see that the ancients were all just normal people who think sharks are cool and have their own struggles and issues coming to terms with the world around then. its why G'raha looks a genocidal robot in the face and says he doesn't have the right to judge them, and instead expresses his shared experience in the quest for the understanding of the self while offering a path forward. when people look at the ancient society and go "wow, theyre insane inhuman Others no wonder they brought doom onto themselves" I have to wonder what they're getting out of the rest of the story
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Dec 20, 2021 20:02
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Vitamean posted:I was thinking of the one in Sharlayan near the end. There is. Every single bit of non-crafting side content except for ShB's two raid series gets called back to during that scene. The way you cleared out the internment hulks in the Coils of Bahamut, Roundrox from Alexander, the Sky Pirates from Mhach, the theater company from Ivalice, Alpha and Omega, Ejika sends along some stuff and a grumpy message from Eureka, Gaius sends a chunk of a Weapon from Sorrow of Werlyt, the Bozjan Resistance and its allies send you one of the relics, and I think even the Sons of Saint Connach send something. It was incredibly indulgent and made me grin like a child because that was it. That was the thing I was hoping would happen and was here for.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:04
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YES bread posted:when people look at the ancient society and go "wow, theyre insane inhuman Others no wonder they brought doom onto themselves" I have to wonder what they're getting out of the rest of the story In my eyes, you're conflating the Ancients the people with Amaurot the civilization, society, and culture. One I don't think deserved the Final Days. The other, I think brought the Final Days on itself by its own sins.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:05
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Cythereal posted:In my eyes, real strength is to be found when you put down your weapon and extend your hand, and that that is the highest and best state of the Warrior of Light and what being an adventurer means: when you stop fighting and start talking or just rolling up your sleeves to pitch in with whatever problems people have. I mean, for better or worse, FFXIV is a game that literally lets you level up as a fighter or level up as a crafter/gatherer, but you can't complete the storyline as a Carpenter or a Botanist. Even when fighting has a partially metaphorical/symbolic quality to it, like against Primals or Sineaters (which are effectively Ideas made physical, rather than people or animals), there's a genuine Fighting Can Be Good throughline. Either "fighting as dialectic against false ideologies" like with the Endsinger, or "fighting as literally going to war against oppressors" like in Stormblood. i feel like the Warrior of Light has no real leg to stand on telling Zenos "actually, fighting is bad and I don't like it and no good can come from it." Just from the sheer reality of the game being a fantasy superhero war story where 95% of the content involves fighting people.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:07
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Cythereal posted:I think it accords perfectly. If you have empathy for other people, you will help them when they need help. Yeah, but sometimes you just have to kill someone to get rid of them. This has just come up in Sanguinia's LP thread, but the story already has several examples of diplomacy not winning out, even when it's attempted in good faith. Nidhogg was never going to stop tormenting Ishgard, he had to die. It's the same with Zenos, he's a wild dog you have to put down to make the world a better place. You know that trying to talk down Zenos won't work. At best, it will only delay and give him more opportunities to hurt people. The game never asks you to have respect for him, except as a person who is good at doing violence. You can see Zenos as a sad and twisted result of Garlean ideology who nevertheless deserves empathy, or just as a problem that needs to be solved. Either way, there's one actual response that makes any sense: you gotta fight him!
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Dec 20, 2021 20:09
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Anything good is worth fighting to get it. Just as life is a struggle in itself sometimes, one has to fight to continue sometimes - and that fight is always worthwhile. In this game, you just happen to fight with giant swords and explosions, which is Rad.Cythereal posted:In my eyes, you're conflating the Ancients the people with Amaurot the civilization, society, and culture. One I don't think deserved the Final Days. The other, I think brought the Final Days on itself by its own sins. I get what you're saying, but I don't agree that they brought upon the Final Days by any virtue or lack of virtue inherent to their society. Hermes' curiosity about the world outside, partially helped by his own inherent depression and dissatisfaction with how society viewed its creations, resulted in him sending Meteion out there to get the answers he so desperately wanted. You can certainly say one led to the other, but then take Venat - someone wholly committed to seeing the light of the life that they had, in spite of its flaws, despite knowing it could be cruel. Hermes - and Meteion by extension - couldn't handle it, and that confluence of circumstances and Meteion's hyper-empathy led to the final days. Hermes wanted a good answer out there, and he didn't get it. Neither did his creation.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:14
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Also outright all Ancients are part of that Society, it looks like at this point it was a global society who all believed the same things (which checks out with some of the other stuff in this expansion and previous ones, in terms of disparity being born of the sundering).
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Dec 20, 2021 20:17
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Cythereal posted:That is what I wish we had the option to at least express to Zenos, that I - and my concept of the WoL - will never have a shred of respect for him as long as he thinks strength involves a weapon in hand. If we did, he wouldn’t bite. That’s Zenos’ entire thing. By the end of the story, it’s extremely clear that he is not receptive and just wants to fight.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:17
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Saying the game is about lack of empathy being bad, then saying that an entire culture and society of people deserved death is really loving funny to me. Even if Amarout was a single isolated city it changes nothing.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:18
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Cythereal posted:Whereas my feelings are just the opposite. I felt that Meteion, half baked as she was, was a fine end boss who summoned up the feelings and story well. If the credits had just rolled after killing her, or if the final showdown with Zenos was optional, I think I'd be a lot more forgiving towards Endwalker. The problem with it just ending without a final Zenos fight is that would mean he's still out there, thinking about you. Like him or hate him, and I didn't like him very much, he's better off dead, the rest of the universe is better off with him dead, and you're the only being strong enough to make that happen.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:18
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Endwalker has exactly the ending it needed. Either way there’s no pleasing everybody so just let people who don’t like Endwalker continue not liking it, it affects nothing.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:19
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Also Zenos literally says I realise now you have other forms of strength and reasons for doing what you do, but "I can offer but one sole pleasure, and one sole purpose". He's outright saying he understands the difference between the two of you now, but still doesn't think he's got anything else worthwhile for you except his own martial prowess, and so he asks to share the one thing in the world he understands and knows with you again.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:19
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Harrow posted:That final showdown is banking on a few things, yeah. It's banking on the idea that you want that I gotta say though, choosing option one made the end fight feel really drat cool. But that’s my WoL, who would definitely take that option. She wanders around for fun and helps everyone she can, but when there’s not someone left to help, she’s still there for the adventure. That kind of character also served as a nice mirror to Zenos. Where he was single-minded in his pursuit of that challenge no matter the cost, my WoL sought out adventure for fun only as it helped people/didn’t hurt anyone. The final battle was one not of anger or justice or righteous rage, but just because the day was won, so sure, we can have our epic battle now. I can see how it wouldn’t feel as great for other people’s characters, though.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:20
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duel to the death at the end of the universe (as a player), and also on the idea that the three choices given will probably include at least something you think your WoL would agree with. You're either fighting him because "gently caress it, y'know what, adventure is fun and I do on some level seek this out for its own sake" or because "I cannot in good conscience let you leave here alive because you're too dangerous," or finally because "I'm just tired of you and you need to be dead for real this time."
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You also would have just died if he didn't show up to save you. Both at the actual Endsinger fight, and then again after his dying wish makes the remote re-appear. Feels ok to throw him a bone and at the same time get rid of him so he doesn't kill more people trying to get at you. Leaving him alive would like, literally be one of the most morally wrong things you could ever do.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:20
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Begemot posted:Yeah, but sometimes you just have to kill someone to get rid of them.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:21
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I like how Cythereal and the Venat haters are the two extremes of views on the ancients
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Dec 20, 2021 20:23
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And I mean what turned me around on Zenos was that I could pick the "I have had enough of you" answer, and I feel finally seeing the WoL totally being willing to kill a bitch is just as great as when Captain Kirk says the same thing and kicks the rear end in a top hat who killed his son into a volcano.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:23
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HPanda posted:I gotta say though, choosing option one made the end fight feel really drat cool. But that’s my WoL, who would definitely take that option. She wanders around for fun and helps everyone she can, but when there’s not someone left to help, she’s still there for the adventure. That kind of character also served as a nice mirror to Zenos. Where he was single-minded in his pursuit of that challenge no matter the cost, my WoL sought out adventure for fun only as it helped people/didn’t hurt anyone. The final battle was one not of anger or justice or righteous rage, but just because the day was won, so sure, we can have our epic battle now. I can see how it wouldn’t feel as great for other people’s characters, though. Oh absolutely. I chose option #1 because ultimately I think a lot of the elements in the story--Azem's adventures, the joy Venat finds in adventure and sparring, all the talk about your life as an adventurer, whether your travels have been good--had me thinking a lot about finding the joy in all of these experiences. My WoL was like... yeah. I wouldn't be here in the first place if I didn't, on some level, seek out these thrills and challenges for their own sake. The "Footfalls" theme kicking in as your character smirks is just good as hell. For all of the emotions Endwalker plays on, one of the ones I felt like it was best at delivering was raw, unadulterated hype. Summoning back Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus to open a path forward? Hype as gently caress. Riding into the final battle on Shinryu's back? Hype as gently caress. Throwing down in a duel to the death at the literal edge of the universe while the trailer music plays? Hype as gently caress.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:24
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I don't like that Hydaelyn has an ice attack. All her other attacks are water, earth, wind, or light - white mage stuff. I hope someone got fired for that blunder.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:24
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HPanda posted:I gotta say though, choosing option one made the end fight feel really drat cool. But that’s my WoL, who would definitely take that option. She wanders around for fun and helps everyone she can, but when there’s not someone left to help, she’s still there for the adventure. That kind of character also served as a nice mirror to Zenos. Where he was single-minded in his pursuit of that challenge no matter the cost, my WoL sought out adventure for fun only as it helped people/didn’t hurt anyone. The final battle was one not of anger or justice or righteous rage, but just because the day was won, so sure, we can have our epic battle now. I can see how it wouldn’t feel as great for other people’s characters, though. I know for my Warrior of Light it was cathartic. His backstory as a bunboy is that very early on in Garlemald's expansion he found a force invading the forest, murdered them all (but took an injury, blind in one eye, cool scar), and realised that they wouldn't stop coming if he sat around in the forest only reacting to their direct invasions. So he went out into the world, spent decades watching as everyone everywhere failed to stop the Garlean expansion, finds out Eorzea did in fact hold them off, and heads there to find out how. His entire reason for exiling himself was to fight Garlemald. So the way Garlemald ultimately goes down leaves him feeling like he's kind of wasted his exile, Garlemald is gone but he's spent decades wanting to destroy them. Zenos is a great form of Catharsis, because he's so emblematic of Garlemald's greatest sins and failings. So yeah my WoL couldn't deny his love for the fight, but absolutely wanted to kill Zenos dead because at that point he really didn't have any other option for dealing with his general issues around Garlemald and his own self-exile. Countblanc posted:I don't like that Hydaelyn has an ice attack. All her other attacks are water, earth, wind, or light - white mage stuff. I hope someone got fired for that blunder. I don't think she has a wind attack actually? But also Ice is the closest element to Light (it's why Eden Shiva goes the way it does). This does of course mean Thunder is the closest to Dark (which fits).
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Dec 20, 2021 20:24
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I chose option 1 cause I'm a savage raider and zenos is right
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Dec 20, 2021 20:25
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I think she has a wind attack when you fight her as Venat but maybe I'm mistaken
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Dec 20, 2021 20:26
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I chose option 3 because I also immediately thought of Captain Kirk kicking that Klingon in the face
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Dec 20, 2021 20:29
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Unfortunately defeating Meteion without mortal combat was never possible because Hermes neglected to give her a digestive system. And due to her empathic abilities, she really loving enjoys eating, but can never eat.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:37
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Argas posted:Unfortunately defeating Meteion without mortal combat was never possible because Hermes neglected to give her a digestive system. You know what, of all the ways Hermes hosed up, this is one of the most upsetting to me. I get why she shouldn't need to eat, given her and her sisters mission. But I cannot understand the idea of not giving her the ability to eat, it's such a vital part of so many cultures that how you partake in food matters.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:38
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Countblanc posted:I think she has a wind attack when you fight her as Venat but maybe I'm mistaken She does, and as a trust she uses True Aero if Healer. Unfortunately the Sundering patch removed all wind spells from Ancient White Mage.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:40
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Lord_Magmar posted:You know what, of all the ways Hermes hosed up, this is one of the most upsetting to me. I get why she shouldn't need to eat, given her and her sisters mission. But I cannot understand the idea of not giving her the ability to eat, it's such a vital part of so many cultures that how you partake in food matters. Then we could have had the final days #2 triggered by Archon Loaf!
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Dec 20, 2021 20:40
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The WoL clutches the crystal of Azem to their breast and summons forth that one food critic from the HW culinarian quest so Meteion can experience the joy of cooking again
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Dec 20, 2021 20:40
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:She does, and as a trust she uses True Aero if Healer. Unfortunately the Sundering patch removed all wind spells from Ancient White Mage. Maybe she's just to the point where she knows Glare now. 
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Dec 20, 2021 20:42
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Honestly it sounds like as Hydaelyn her access to Dark aligned elements might have weakened. So she loses Aero.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:45
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Lord_Magmar posted:You know what, of all the ways Hermes hosed up, this is one of the most upsetting to me. I get why she shouldn't need to eat, given her and her sisters mission. But I cannot understand the idea of not giving her the ability to eat, it's such a vital part of so many cultures that how you partake in food matters. Making an empathic being unable to eat, and then exposing her to the joy of your candy apple habit. Torture.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:45
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Lord_Magmar posted:But I cannot understand the idea of not giving her the ability to eat, it's such a vital part of so many cultures. this is true but the amaurotines are very explicitly Weird About Food as a matter of their stewardship of the star and view the eating of food as wasteful in itself and justifiable only by the need to maintain one's health, even if they recognize food can also be tasty. designing a familiar that can eat, which is such a ghastly inefficient way to consume aether, is probably a major faux pas. this is why sharlayans and loporrits are the way they are, to boot. terrible civilization, deserved to fall e: okay actually: food is a running motif in endwalker, and the stagnancy of culinary culture in Sharlayan, Amaurot, and Ea is a thread linking these cultures which prize reason to such a degree that they attempt to deny their earthly desires entirely. The Amaurotines and Sharlayans reach it only imperfectly: it's clear that while the Ancients are weird about food culturally, individual Ancients obviously enjoy eating in itself. The same is true in Sharlayan, where the Last Stand is nobly preventing the entire country from subsisting solely on Valentin fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Dec 20, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 20:47
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FuturePastNow posted:Making an empathic being unable to eat, and then exposing her to the joy of your candy apple habit. Torture.   The Final Days were caused by too many sweets 
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Dec 20, 2021 20:50
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| # ? Jun 12, 2024 07:53 |
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Lord_Magmar posted:You know what, of all the ways Hermes hosed up, this is one of the most upsetting to me. I get why she shouldn't need to eat, given her and her sisters mission. But I cannot understand the idea of not giving her the ability to eat, it's such a vital part of so many cultures that how you partake in food matters. It's interesting that Ancients only eat to restore their aether and consider it wasteful to indulge in it otherwise, but then the foods they still make very enjoyable foods like candied apples, sweet fruit smoothies, and confections. Contrast to Sharlayan collectively deciding to only eat for nutrition, and also make it miserable.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:50
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