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Collateral posted:It was an unnecessary change that breaks a lot of in-universe world building. Nynaeve is even the wrong age, but Moiraine must have forgot about that. Moiraine asks about her age and uses it to disqualify her, I don't think show-Moiraine considered Nynaeve to be a possible Dragon after episode 1 or whenever their talk in the pools was. The darkfriend comment about "the five" of them was because the darkfriend didn't know about this disqualification for whatever reason.
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Dec 20, 2021 17:13
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Skyl3lazer posted:Moiraine asks about her age and uses it to disqualify her, I don't think show-Moiraine considered Nynaeve to be a possible Dragon after episode 1 or whenever their talk in the pools was. The darkfriend comment about "the five" of them was because the darkfriend didn't know about this disqualification for whatever reason. Tbh I assumed the other person the darkfriend was talking about was Logain since he was calling himself The Dragon, so he might have just been clumped into the list.
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Dec 20, 2021 17:19
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Collateral posted:I must have missed that bit of exposition (that the The Dragon Reborn would be born on the Dragonmount) in a previous episode. I'm fairly sure that would have narrowed it down immediately to Nynaeve or Rand, and Nynaeve isn't the right age. I'm pretty sure it got mentioned when Moirainne gave them the blind seer speech at the end of episode 1. I could be wrong, though. She didn't know then that Rand wasn't born in the Two Rivers, either. For all she knew, any of them could have been born elsewhere. She wasn't there when they were born, and only has what the villagers say to go by. The insular villagers who aren't going to air their laundry to a random outsider.
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Dec 20, 2021 17:20
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She specifically brings it up during her pillow talk with Siuan and notes she's too old but she's hella powerful and the prophecies have been retranslated a dozen times so maybe the dates were wrong (obviously they weren't)
Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Dec 20, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 17:21
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Gaz-L posted:Legit question from non-reader: is that actually true or are you giving the books a pass on account of having been an angsty teen when reading them? The books are not good. They aren't so bad as to be unreadable, but the characters are one-dimensional, the prose is verbose and repetitive, and the dialog and internal monologue is frequently atrocious. Nyneave, to use an example, has shown more humanity and tenderness in 7 episodes of this show than she has in 5 (or 6?, I can't remember what number I'm on) books. Like she loving sucks in the books, she's just this heinous, aggro shrew of a woman. This is a series that gets by on its world-building and plotting - though there are entire character subplots in the books that you could ignore completely without losing anything. I'm talking hundreds of pages of stuff.
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Dec 20, 2021 17:28
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Collateral posted:It was an unnecessary change that breaks a lot of in-universe world building. Nynaeve is even the wrong age, but Moiraine must have forgot about that. She doesn't forget about it, she just doesn't know what parts of prophecy she can rely on. There's an entire scene of her and Nyn together in the first episode where Moiraine grills her about the circumstances of her birth and clearly dismisses her from consideration on the basis of age. Then in episode 4 we see her express doubt to Lan on how much faith they can put in age as a sign after meeting Logain, shortly before Nyn drops a spirit bomb on the party. It's not hard to infer that Moiraine puts her back on the list after seeing that. (e: Oh, and she also notes to Siuan in E6 that only four of the five are the right age. So no, definitely not forgotten about.) Don't get me wrong, I'm still not certain the narrative has gained anything of value making show!Moiraine so ignorant of, well, everything, but I don't think you can argue that they haven't laid foundation for it. Collateral posted:The biggest tells that a person is the Dragon Reborn is that they can channel. Which Nynaeve and Egwene can both do, so how does Rand (and Moiraine for that matter) know for sure that he is the dragon? This is pretty funny, though, because the show establishes immediately in its opening voiceover that they "don't know what power the Dragon will wield" and, unlike the age thing, hasn't revisited that thought since. So channelling isn't evidence of jack poo poo, as far as the show is concerned. Same with all the other thoughts flashing through Rand's mind during the revelation scene. Tam had a fancy sword? Okay, well, what does that have to do with Dragonhood? The show's not even bothered to tell us what the heron-mark means, yet. Born outside the Two Rivers? So was Nyn. So was most of the world. Remembering Dragonmount? That's weird, but it's just a mountain, right? What does that have to do with anything? I don't think the show has established that there's any reason for Rand to imagine that any of these things are indicative of anything in particular. Even with Machin Shin putting the thought into his head, I think it's really only the channelling he should be thinking about. Min's viewing of the baby on Dragonmount gives significance to some of these things, but that conversation happens after Rand's freak out. Nice individual scenes, but garbled storytelling overall. Devorum posted:I'm pretty sure it got mentioned when Moirainne gave them the blind seer speech at the end of episode 1. I could be wrong, though. It's not mentioned then, I checked. It's not mentioned in the scene with Siuan post-coitus either, which definitely seems like a mistake to me. Establish the significance of Dragonmount there, so you can build on it in the reveal next episode. e: zoux posted:Nyneave, to use an example, has shown more humanity and tenderness in 7 episodes of this show than she has in 5 (or 6?, I can't remember what number I'm on) books. Like she loving sucks in the books, she's just this heinous, aggro shrew of a woman. lmao KOGAHAZAN!! fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Dec 20, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 17:30
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The two rivers in the show is not nearly as isolated or backwatered. After 20ish years anyone of age may or may not have a family originating there. I think the show could have gone another direction and had her just try to grab just Rand and have the party form more organically like in the books and avoid some of the other changes that I'm still iffy about to the Two Rivers folk. No mystery then and IDK if that is an actual hook for those who've never touched the books. I hope the show's doing well with that demographic. I personally rate witcher a lot higher then WOT so far, but I've not read witcher.
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Dec 20, 2021 18:00
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:The two rivers in the show is not nearly as isolated or backwatered. After 20ish years anyone of age may or may not have a family originating there. Me neither but from the show thread, non-readers are like "cool season  " and readers are like "ugh they made everything suck"
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Dec 20, 2021 18:01
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zoux posted:Me neither but from the show thread, non-readers are like "cool season I think a fair amount of "book readers" in that thread are actually the "played Witcher 3" kind of book readers
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Dec 20, 2021 18:12
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It may well have been a poor translation but the Witcher book I tried was extremely poor. W3 is a fantastic game though, I got the bad dad ending 
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Dec 20, 2021 18:21
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canepazzo posted:I think a fair amount of "book readers" in that thread are actually the "played Witcher 3" kind of book readers Haven't finished TW Season 2 yet, so haven't checked the thread but for the half I've watched they definitely did a weird job at adapting what's taken from the books.
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Dec 20, 2021 18:45
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zoux posted:Me neither but from the show thread, non-readers are like "cool season I’m a book reader who’s read the books several times and I’m loving the show. I lurk the hell out of this thread but tend not to post, since I just enjoy non readers conjecture about stuff. I’m assuming a bunch of readers who like the show are in the same boat, and there’s a large overlap of nerds raging that they hate the show that also physically can’t stop themselves from throwing book spoilers in the thread with “NO BOOK SPOILERS” in the title.
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Dec 20, 2021 18:58
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People are picky. 20 years ago it was a given that an adaptation would be 100% showrunners 0% source medium. 10 years ago 90/10. 5 years ago idk maybe 80/20? Now it’s maybe 70/30 and that’s kind of amazing compared to the sort of adaptation we used to get. Of the latest crop I like Expanse, WoT and Witcher, they all have a lot of charm and can be watched with Mrs Beefeater, who has exactly zero knowledge of the source material.
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Dec 20, 2021 19:12
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My biggest knock is I think the season could use more episodes. It's probably inevitable to feel like things are being rushed when you're adapting a 14 book series into a show that'll last maybe 60 episodes. Lan and Nynaeve felt rushed and something that would benefit from a few more episodes of build-up. That love triangle insinuation came out of nowhere and seemed weird. Is Perrin adhering to the way of the leaf or was that just a line he tossed out at the tavern? I still don't really get what Loial has to do with everything or why he was with them in the Ways. I guess my question is why is each season only 8 episodes like it's some tightly wound limited series with a few characters? Wouldn't a show like this with so many characters and stories benefit from a few extra episodes a season? The only character that I feel has any depth so far is Moiraine, and that may just be because Rosamund Pike is so good.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:05
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My hope is that because the show is such a big hit for Amazon they will up the budget and give the production team 10 episodes per season going forward. Give em what they need, Bezos you coward.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:12
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Niwrad posted:The only character that I feel has any depth so far is Moiraine, and that may just be because Rosamund Pike is so good. It's because Moiraine has as much screen time and speaking lines as all five characters from two rivers put together.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:20
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Pyromancer posted:It's because Moiraine has as much screen time and speaking lines as all five characters from two rivers put together. Yeah it feels like they're relying on Pike to carry initial interest in the show because of her experience/name value to give the other actors time to establish themselves but I think they're doing it a little bit too much.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:29
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Pyromancer posted:It's because Moiraine has as much screen time and speaking lines as all five characters from two rivers put together. They clearly made her the main character of season 1 to drive the plot and keep the Dragon's identity hidden. I suspect she will take more of a backseat now that we have more of a clear identity of why each person is special. Although so far mat's special quality is "touched a spooky knife" so here's hoping things go better for him in season 2!
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Dec 20, 2021 20:33
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She's an EP and #1 on the call sheet, I'd expect her to be a protagonist throughout
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Dec 20, 2021 20:40
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zoux posted:She's an EP and #1 on the call sheet, I'd expect her to be a protagonist throughout I suppose her role is very similar to Sean Bean's in that regard to use a big name actor to start. Worked for GOT.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:49
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Yeah, she's going to be the series co-protagonist along with Rand. They've made that pretty clear in the first season
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Dec 20, 2021 20:50
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But the books dont have a single protagonist (in the sense that its seen from a sigular point of view) so that cant work. Theres other logistical reasons if they follow the books. By comparison, who is the protagonist of GoT? Like there isnt one.
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Dec 20, 2021 21:09
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Burns posted:But the books dont have a single protagonist (in the sense that its seen from a sigular point of view) so that cant work. Theres other logistical reasons if they follow the books. Yeah, the Wikia has a breakdown of the point of view characters for every book, along with how much of the book is told from their point of view and while it starts out quite simple in the first book or two, by the fourth book you're looking at nearly 30 odd characters who have had point of view sections, though a lot of them only have a point of view for a few pages or maybe a chapter. Not only are there dozens of people who are protagonists at times, no-one in the current cast even has the largest single share of that in multiple books. Edit: Having just checked out of curiousity, the 6th book alone has 47 different point of view characters at various times. And it's not alone in being told from so many points of view. Within that book though, 6 of those points of view make up roughly 82% of the book, with the other 41 spread across the remaining roughly 18% remaining. That's still a half dozen people to divvy up the "protagonist" role however. Multiple books have two or three characters with nearly the same amount of point of view content, and even if you picked out one or two people to be the protagonist by looking at who has the most overall throughout the entire series, then multiple books barely feature that character's point of view. As in, there are multiple books where they might only account for 2 or 3 percent of the overall point of view. tsob fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Dec 20, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 21:42
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Niwrad posted:I still don't really get what Loial has to do with everything or why he was with them in the Ways. Moiraine needed him to translate the guiding stones so they would know which way to go
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Dec 20, 2021 21:44
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I think the prologue of book 6 has 10+ pov. It's enormous.
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Dec 20, 2021 23:00
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Collateral posted:I think the prologue of book 6 has 10+ pov. It's enormous. I counted 11 points of view across 73 pages in the prologue alone, just looking at it now. Most of whom are pretty important characters, from what I remember of the books. I'm only just coming up on the finale of the first book now, having not read any of them in 15 odd years; and never finishing them when I did read them, leaving off around book 10 I think. Almost none of the characters in that prologue have even been introduced yet either; if they will even be in the show.
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Dec 20, 2021 23:07
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it's also more broadly just a stylistic thing Jordan indulged in more and more as the series progressed, by the later books it's sometimes a struggle to remember why you're in a particular person's head and what their importance to the story is i think a lot of that stuff will translate much better to tv
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Dec 20, 2021 23:16
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People are over complicating this. There are lots of pov's in the books but the protagonists are still Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene and Nynaeve. With a couple of exceptions all the major plots revolve around or involve them.
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Dec 20, 2021 23:18
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Moiraine is by far the most interesting character on the show to watch and it is mostly because of Rosamund Pike. I think it's also pretty clear that the younger cast are being developed to take over, especially Rand, but knowing nothing about the books I hope that Moiraine doesn't loving die in book 2 or something and then Rosamund Pike is off the show. I want her to still be a focused main character for a long time. Without her in this, I don't know if I would have latched on to the show at all, so they made a good choice there.
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Dec 20, 2021 23:30
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roomtone posted:Moiraine is by far the most interesting character on the show to watch and it is mostly because of Rosamund Pike. I think it's also pretty clear that the younger cast are being developed to take over, especially Rand, but knowing nothing about the books I hope that Moiraine doesn't loving die in book 2 or something and then Rosamund Pike is off the show. I want her to still be a focused main character for a long time. Without her in this, I don't know if I would have latched on to the show at all, so they made a good choice there. Don't count your chickens, she's not survived book 1 yet 
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Dec 20, 2021 23:31
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sweet geek swag posted:People are over complicating this. There are lots of pov's in the books but the protagonists are still Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene and Nynaeve. With a couple of exceptions all the major plots revolve around or involve them. No, they're not, because the point was not "there are dozens of POVs therefor there are dozens of protagonists"; it was "there are multiple protagonists, and the percentage of POV for those characters throughout the story and the fact that all of those characters barely feature in multiple books supports that". The fact you have to name 5 characters to list the primary protagonists kind of makes the point on it's own.
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Dec 20, 2021 23:34
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Rarity posted:Don't count your chickens, she's not survived book 1 yet But yeah, I agree that she seems to be a span above the rest of the cast, while most of the protagonist are not as exciting (I do like Lan's and Mat's actors though). GoT definitely had a wider group of talented actors thanks to the HBO pool; each of the Lannister family members alone could probably be the star of their own shows and that's difficult to top.
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Dec 20, 2021 23:38
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Niwrad posted:I guess my question is why is each season only 8 episodes like it's some tightly wound limited series with a few characters? Wouldn't a show like this with so many characters and stories benefit from a few extra episodes a season? The only character that I feel has any depth so far is Moiraine, and that may just be because Rosamund Pike is so good. I can only assume it's because episodes cost money.
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Dec 20, 2021 23:47
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zoux posted:Nyneave, to use an example, has shown more humanity and tenderness in 7 episodes of this show than she has in 5 (or 6?, I can't remember what number I'm on) books. Like she loving sucks in the books, she's just this heinous, aggro shrew of a woman. She is the the character in the show closest to the book character imo. It helps a lot that she's probably putting on the best acting performance -- I don't think the writing is doing any of the characters any favors but she has found something to work with.
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Dec 21, 2021 00:08
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Bongo Bill posted:I can only assume it's because episodes cost money. Im worried that it's more because Amazon has some internal numbers that show 8 episodes gives a show more Bingeability and has a higher Finish Rate
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Dec 21, 2021 00:41
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until they have metrics that might tell them otherwise, amazon is going to err on the side of giving the show people less than what they ask for every single time purely to cut on costs
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Dec 21, 2021 00:50
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Also, goons, they're not gonna make 18 90 minute episodes every year or whatever you think is somehow possible. I mean, gently caress, I was surprised when every episode so far has been almost a solid hour. They've basically gotten like 12 episodes of regular TV to work with.
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Dec 21, 2021 01:24
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You say that like there aren't lots of 60 minute television shows too.
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Dec 21, 2021 01:28
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Except a constant refrain in the thread has been 'the episodes should be longer' and there are definitely NOT many shows that run more than an hour.
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Dec 21, 2021 01:36
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Hyperbole or strawman...YOU DECIDE!
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Dec 21, 2021 01:38
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