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selec posted:The problem is that they aren’t real realities. There are plenty of things Biden could do via executive order that he doesn’t. They could fire the parliamentarian but they don’t. These are fake guardrails. they don't even need to fire the parliamentarian. you can pass any bill you want with a majority in the senate and the house. legislative rules are convention, not law. there is not a senate majority for changing those conventions, though. firing the parliamentarian, carve-outs, and the nuclear option are all effectively the exact same maneuver: the abolition of the filibuster. and they all still need the entire democratic senate caucus onboard to do. to be clear, i think the filibuster is idiotic. even if you want to only care about good governance it is absolutely inane for the primary means of change being through budget reconciliation, which is incredibly messy and ends up creating lovely bills with budgeting gimmicks. that said, for some reason a small number of very dumb senators believe that it's a good thing rather than a rule that is slowly destroying the country. Concerned Citizen fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Dec 20, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 22:53
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Concerned Citizen posted:they don't even need to fire the parliamentarian. you can pass any bill you want with a majority in the senate and the house. legislative rules are convention, not law. there is not a senate majority for changing those conventions, though. firing the parliamentarian, carve-outs, and the nuclear option are all effectively the exact same maneuver: the abolition of the filibuster. and they all still need the entire democratic senate caucus onboard to do. Thanks for pointing that out—point still stands though, the administration is hamstringing itself on wins it could have, because they’re not actually in favor of those policies, like student loan relief or drug policy changes. Which is fine, I guess, but I don’t know why I’d vote for a party so out of alignment with my own vision for the country. The democrats are governing much closer to what the GOP is like than anywhere near my preference for what the country would look like or the party should fight for. At a certain point it’s like asking me to vote for Libertarians in terms of the distance they are from me and the relative distance between them and the GOP.
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Dec 20, 2021 22:58
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CommieGIR posted:Uh, you are aware of what the GOP's larger goal is, right? And how they've pushed their response to the Biden agenda? Like, Biden is a moron, but they are not passing bills in the Senate and Congress in a vacuum unopposed 19 Republican senators just helped pass an infrastructure bill a few months ago. Looks like "GOP's larger goal" is not the end all be all because a bunch of individual senators chose to vote for a smaller and more focused bill that didn't have a ton of other unrelated stuff in it. They voted for this smaller and more focused bill despite Trump himself telling them not to and threatening to support primary challenges against the ones who vote yes. VitalSigns posted:BBB is massively popular Then it should be an easy lay up for Swearengin. She just needs to scream about how Manchin killed BBB and she supports the massively popular BBB!
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Dec 20, 2021 22:59
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We're all stuck on the Manchincycle so strap in and hold on for another 6 months of gut wrenching terror!
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Dec 20, 2021 23:06
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Push El Burrito posted:We're all stuck on the Manchincycle so strap in and hold on for another 6 months of gut wrenching terror! It sucks! I hate it.
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Dec 20, 2021 23:07
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haveblue posted:So now we're back where we were 48 hours ago, just everyone's blood pressure is now that much higher. Business as usual. The manchin cycle is evolving.
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Dec 20, 2021 23:08
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Vorik posted:
No this is dumb. There are many examples of voters approving of individual pieces of legislation while reelecting politicians who oppose it, on the same ballot even. Manchin winning a primary does not disprove evidence showing the BBB is popular in his state, any more than Missourians reelecting the party that passed right to work disproved evidence showing Right To Work was unpopular in Missouri You are wrong, sorry. E: As well Manchin has said why he opposes BBB and it isn't because it's unpopular, he knows it's popular. It's for ideological reasons (he thinks parents will spend the child tax credit on drugs) and of course financial ones (donors have spent a lot of money on him and Sinema to defeat the bill because it contains provisions they don't like) VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Dec 20, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 23:09
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West Virginians love BBB and they love Joe Manchin. But if Joe Manchin ever voted for BBB? HOO BOY
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Dec 20, 2021 23:12
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It's amazing to me that the dude first tricked you all into trying to argue in good faith with him using claims that Defund the Police a) actually happened and b) directly caused the increased murder counts being reported. Now you are all trying to argue with him in good faith when he used "political reality" and "work with the Republicans" in the same sentence and it's making me glad the trump lol thread exists because at least there the obvious trolls don't derail the thread for multiple pages
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Dec 20, 2021 23:15
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🤔 So, immediately after a news cycle of Manchin throwing yet another Trumpian tantrum about people being SO MEAN just because he’s being a ignorant corrupt piece of poo poo, we get a story about Manchin’s definitely real and very serious private offer. Now stop being so mean to Joe “Dumber Than A Rock” Manchin, and Y’all are getting worse at this, christ selec posted:I would love to hear Vorik’s actual political desires. Say what you will about my posting quality, I will not shy away from my desires to nationalize Wal Mart and establish a sovereign wealth fund for starters. AmiYumi fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Dec 20, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 23:19
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WebDO posted:It's amazing to me that the dude first tricked you all into trying to argue in good faith with him using claims that Defund the Police a) actually happened and b) directly caused the increased murder counts being reported. I would love to hear Vorik’s actual political desires. Say what you will about my posting quality, I will not shy away from my desires to nationalize Wal Mart and establish a sovereign wealth fund for starters. What’s your actual vision for the country, Vorik? What changes would you like to see?
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Dec 20, 2021 23:20
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If Manchin doesn't like big bills with everything crammed into them passing through reconciliation on party lines, he should support filibuster reform. Then all of these things - SALT, paid leave, CTC, child care - can be their own standalone bills that can sink or swim with 50 votes. No reconcilation. Each would have an easily understood cost with no obfuscation caused by artificial cutoff points. The public can be polled on their approval of each bill individually, and discriminating Senators can support whichever ones they like. Some of those bills might even get a couple of Republican votes. Of course, the real reason Manchin likes the filibuster is because it's making things work out the way he wants them to - ie, lovely for almost everybody, good for donors and himself. But I think people forget just exactly how much the filibuster has contributed to our poo poo-rear end Congress and how much better things could be without it, not just in what gets passed but in making legislating make more loving sense than it does right now. Bills like the BBB should not even exist.
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Dec 20, 2021 23:23
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AmiYumi posted:🤔 So, immediately after a news cycle of Manchin throwing yet another Trumpian tantrum about people being SO MEAN just because he’s being a ignorant corrupt piece of poo poo, we get a story about Manchin’s definitely real and very serious private offer. Now stop being so mean to Joe “Dumber Than A Rock” Manchin, and i believe these are largely wh-driven stories as joe manchin has absolutely never given a poo poo about being the democratic party's villain
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Dec 20, 2021 23:23
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imo dems would've had a lot better chance naming the bill something good like bbq instead of stupid rear end bbb everyone likes bbq, that poo poo polls like 90%
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Dec 20, 2021 23:35
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Herstory Begins Now posted:imo dems would've had a lot better chance naming the bill something good like bbq instead of stupid rear end bbb agreed. i also think we'd win back the south if we sent in the military to kill all the feral hogs. imagine how bitchin' it would be to see an m1a1 abrams rolling through texas blowing up pigs. leaving a lot of votes on the table. Concerned Citizen fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Dec 20, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 23:37
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VitalSigns posted:Manchin winning a primary does not disprove evidence showing the BBB is popular in his state, any more than Missourians reelecting the party that passed right to work disproved evidence showing Right To Work was unpopular in Missouri Kyrsten Sinema's approval sank when she started playing hardball with dems and has stayed low ever since. Manchin's has only gone up. There seems to be a disconnect between what you believe people support after reading a provision phrased in a certain way in a certain poll, and what people actually support. You should remember this next time you try to cite a poll for what a senator's constituents say they "support" after being read a question. quote:Manchin has said why he opposes BBB Yes he did. Inflation and the national debt, to be specific. Mellow Seas posted:If Manchin doesn't like big bills with everything crammed into them passing through reconciliation on party lines, he should support filibuster reform. Then all of these things - SALT, paid leave, CTC, child care - can be their own standalone bills that can sink or swim with 50 votes. No reconcilation. Each would have an easily understood cost with no obfuscation caused by artificial cutoff points. The public can be polled on their approval of each bill individually, and discriminating Senators can support whichever ones they like. Some of those bills might even get a couple of Republican votes. Except you don't need to kill the filibuster to pass smaller individual bills. Again, dems and republicans did just that not long ago. Manchin's refusal to vote yes on filibuster reform is not due to his dislike of the BBB.
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Dec 20, 2021 23:40
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Vorik posted:Except you don't need to kill the filibuster to pass smaller individual bills. Except, come on, yes you do. Is this a bit? Republicans were able to come together to tepidly support "bridges shouldn't fall down I guess" (when they were able to use it to help kill a wide swathe of Biden's agenda, with Manchin's cooperation). They are every bit as united in saying "no" to everything as they were in the Obama years. Nothing in the BBB could get 60 votes for cloture.
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Dec 20, 2021 23:44
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Vorik posted:Kyrsten Sinema's approval sank when she started playing hardball with dems and has stayed low ever since. Manchin's has only gone up. Even if this were true it wouldn't prove your claim that BBB is unpopular. But of course it isn't true, Manchin's net approval rating has not gone up, it has gone down by three points (just slightly out of the MoE of +/- 2%) as his cratering approval from WV Democrats is somewhat compensated by rising approval from WV Republicans 
VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Dec 21, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 23:46
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eviltastic posted:I mean, if we're just talking about hypothetical things Democrats could do different, they could've tried to extort some concessions before giving Republicans the defense budget increase (and unfathomably huge piles of money beneath it) and the vaccine opt-out for people in the armed services that monsters like Inhoffe were crowing about and gotten some components of it that way. That didn't happen because of political realities within the Democratic caucus, not the Republican one.  and well-put. I wish the progressives had gone that route, but if they were willing to do that, they probably wouldn't have allowed for the split bill or voting on the infrastructure bill before BBB or the rest of it.Vorik posted:It's either working within the political realities of not having a filibuster proof majority, or, well, you could continue putting your hopes on bloated bills like the BBB and then collapsing into despair as soon as 1 senator disagrees, I guess. lol Again, claiming that the Democrats could get Republicans to support the BBB is not working within political realities. It is a fantasy. Also lol at calling the BBB bloated when we just passed a $768.1 billion (in one year) defense appropriations bill, which is $25 billion more than the White House requested. Mellow Seas posted:Except, come on, yes you do. Is this a bit? It is, they're a really blatant troll.
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Dec 20, 2021 23:53
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WebDO posted:It's amazing to me that the dude first tricked you all into trying to argue in good faith with him using claims that Defund the Police a) actually happened and b) directly caused the increased murder counts being reported. If the mods are just going to allow people to openly lie and double down endlessly with nonsense when confronted with proof (which it appears they are), I'm going to continue to correct misinformation. If they don't want the thread to be endlessly pages of a troll going "nuh uh" to sources and data that contradict claims from his rear end, mods have the tools to deal with that.
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Dec 20, 2021 23:58
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VitalSigns posted:Even if this were true it wouldn't prove your claim that BBB is unpopular. Ooof, not sure that rising Republican approval means much. They're not going to vote for him when the time comes, is there a slightly better Dem WV can run or are the Republicans gonna take that one back? Edit: Yeesh, Sinema is really underwater.
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Dec 21, 2021 00:04
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Ooof, not sure that rising Republican approval means much. They're not going to vote for him when the time comes, is there a slightly better Dem WV can run or are the Republicans gonna take that one back? They're 100% gonna take that one back, unfortunately. The WV Democratic Party is exclusively Manchin's plaything and the national party has not exactly been supportive of the few rising stars in the state who could possibly challenge him down the line. Thus, they end up with Paula Jean Swearengin types that Manchin swats down easily. \/\/\/ Vorik posted:Good thing that's not what I claimed. You are correct that republicans would not support the current BBB, because it is an oversized and bloated bill with no focus. It is the antithesis of the Infrastructure bill. Republicans said from the very beginning they would support a smaller and much more focused bill for infrastructure, and what do you know, that's exactly what they did and helped pass. They would not support a smaller and more focused version of the BBB, which is what you are implying. Again, if you think there is a greater-than-zero amount of social welfare spending that the Dems could propose that the Republicans would support, you are not operating within the bounds of political reality. Majorian fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Dec 21, 2021 |
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Dec 21, 2021 00:07
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Mellow Seas posted:Except, come on, yes you do. Is this a bit? Republicans were able to come together to tepidly support "bridges shouldn't fall down I guess" (when they were able to use it to help kill a wide swathe of Biden's agenda, with Manchin's cooperation). They are every bit as united in saying "no" to everything as they were in the Obama years. Nothing in the BBB could get 60 votes for cloture. 19 republicans voted for that bill, far more than the 60 required to overcome the filibuster. I don't really see how you can classify that as 'tepid' support. What would non-tepid support even look like to you? Should they just not try if they have anything less than 70 votes? The rest of Biden's agenda is currently in limbo because it's a much bigger bill that has all kinds of provisions. They'd have a much better chance at passing stuff in it if they hadn't tried to force everything through in this one giant bill. There was another poll I was looking at but this one is probably better, and this one has Manchin dropping 1 point, compared to sinema's 6 point drop. Majorian posted:claiming that the Democrats could get Republicans to support the BBB is not working within political realities. Good thing that's not what I claimed. You are correct that republicans would not support the current BBB, because it is an oversized and bloated bill with no focus. It is the antithesis of the Infrastructure bill. Republicans said from the very beginning they would support a smaller and much more focused bill for infrastructure, and what do you know, that's exactly what they did and helped pass. quote:It is, they're a really blatant troll. Majorian posted:They would not support a smaller and more focused version of the BBB We will never know because dems pushed everything they could into one bill, thus ensuring that any kind of bipartisan effort would not be possible. Vorik fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Dec 21, 2021 |
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Dec 21, 2021 00:09
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If Voriks a troll they've been doing the exact same never trumper bit for over a year.
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Dec 21, 2021 00:11
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Sedisp posted:If Voriks a troll they've been doing the exact same never trumper bit for over a year. Wait is Vorik actually a real believing never Trump Republican? Because that’s even more delusional than the Khive, didn’t realize they existed in the wild. Vorik is this true
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Dec 21, 2021 00:21
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Vorik posted:We will never know because dems pushed everything they could into one bill, thus ensuring that any kind of bipartisan effort would not be possible. There would never have been any kind of bipartisan cooperation on any social welfare spending bill, because Republican legislators' primary voters would have raked them over the coals if there were.
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Dec 21, 2021 00:23
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Majorian posted:They're 100% gonna take that one back, unfortunately. The WV Democratic Party is exclusively Manchin's plaything and the national party has not exactly been supportive of the few rising stars in the state who could possibly challenge him down the line. Thus, they end up with Paula Jean Swearengin types that Manchin swats down easily. Yeah, as it is I'm still firmly of the belief that Manchin loses in 2018 if the Republicans hadn't insisted on a man who had ties to pharma/opiate lobbying that Machine could score free hits on.
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Dec 21, 2021 00:29
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Ooof, not sure that rising Republican approval means much. They're not going to vote for him when the time comes, is there a slightly better Dem WV can run or are the Republicans gonna take that one back? Oh yeah does not seem like a good trade, especially when you look at how he barely hung on in the Democratic wave year in 2018 (Manchin+3, down from Manchin+23(!!!) in 2012). Are the Republicans happy that he's blocking a dirty Democrat's agenda going to pick him over a Republican who will also block a dirty Democrat's agenda? All of them? Enough to overcome Democrats giving up on him? Ehhhh Vorik posted:19 republicans voted for that bill, far more than the 60 required to overcome the filibuster. I don't really see how you can classify that as 'tepid' support. What would non-tepid support even look like to you? Should they just not try if they have anything less than 70 votes? Non-tepid support to me would be Republicans voting for a bill that didn't have enough Democratic votes to pass anyway. For example, the way the Iraq War vote or the federal partial birth abortion bills did not get 51 Republicans and only passed thanks to Democrat support. I wouldn't read much into Republican senators just putting their names on a popular bill that was going to pass no matter what. If you truly think Republicans are reasonable common-sense legislators who just want to work across the aisle to do what's best for the country, then it shouldn't matter to you that Democrats are going to lose their majorities. Republicans are still going to be reasonable and help Biden pass popular legislation with bipartisan support ahead of his reelection right? (lol)
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Dec 21, 2021 00:36
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imagine manchin having to go back to WV and tell people that he voted against bbq
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Dec 21, 2021 00:37
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I am just amazingly awestruck that Vorik not only bought Manchin's "Bipartisanship" bullshit, but is repeating it here in this thread.
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Dec 21, 2021 00:38
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Majorian posted:There would never have been any kind of bipartisan cooperation on any social welfare spending bill, because Republican legislators' primary voters would have raked them over the coals if there were. I believe this was the same thought process of many dems, and now their agenda is on the verge of collapse. Political realities!
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Dec 21, 2021 00:40
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Vorik posted:I believe this was the same thought process of many dems, and now their agenda is on the verge of collapse. Political realities! There was never any scenario where the GOP was going to cross the aisle in a big way even if BBB was broken up. Have you been asleep for the past ten years or ignored the entirety of the GOP's rallying cries around ensuring Democratic initiatives fail? There is no bipartisanship to be had with the Trump era GOP. Any semblance of bipartisanship is almost entirely followed up by bait and switch to either diminish or entirely neuter the bills. The ONLY bills the GOP will ever be bipartisan on is defense spending and maybe government continuity bills. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0123507#sec008 
CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Dec 21, 2021 |
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Dec 21, 2021 00:42
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CommieGIR posted:I am just amazingly awestruck that Vorik not only bought Manchin's "Bipartisanship" bullshit, but is repeating it here in this thread. Isn’t this the same guy who used to CalmHitler.jpg the cop threads until mods were “forced” to shut them down because gosh D&D just can’t be civil? Or was that a different V username?
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Dec 21, 2021 00:44
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Concerned Citizen posted:https://twitter.com/samstein/status/1473044891936698379 Yeah, lucy will definitely let us kick the football this time.
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Dec 21, 2021 01:35
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Can't stop giggling over "a sense of" talks resuming, like it's smoke coming from an oracle's fire or something, rather than just smoke being blown out of white house butts.
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Dec 21, 2021 01:45
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Vorik posted:Just outright assuming republicans would ruin any bill kind of already says where you stand on that issue though. LMAO, what the actual gently caress makes you think Republicans are willing to make a deal in good faith on any issue that doesn't involve killing brown people?
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Dec 21, 2021 01:46
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Under these circumstances “three people familiar with the call” means there’s an attempt to undo the damage from the blowup, but not much else can be identified.
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Dec 21, 2021 01:59
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Yea sure. I believe Democrats will work to pass multiple reconciliation bills with policies many of them don't support without any leverage or reason for them to do so. They, and the dem leadership, won't find a million rules-lawyer reasons not to do this so they don't have to go on record as being against the policies. Republicans, who also don't support these policies and vote lock-step against any progressive or even centrist legislation, will work with dems to pass these things presuming passing cloture is needed. The US national legislature is functional for the the american people and not corporate interests. They work for the people. America.
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Dec 21, 2021 02:22
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really missed an opportunity to build back queerer
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Dec 21, 2021 03:39
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Build Back Qanon
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Dec 21, 2021 04:01
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