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soviet nationality policy was built along the idea that recognizing and integrating nationality into the soviet system could disarm the destructive forces which ripped apart the old empires of europe. identities existed among the highly literate, but republics became domestic nation states via policy. there were utopian reasons for this, as the historical determinism of marxism suggested stages of development that would lead from premodern state to nation, to an eventual withering away of the nation, but also practical -- to turn nationalism from a destructive force into something that could be constructive for soviet power.
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Dec 23, 2021 21:17
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No way will Russia invade Ukrane this winter imo. It will be a disaster for Putin regime, unless his standing troops manage to accomplish the whole whatever it is they want to do (which is honestly unclear), conscription to fight there will be "gently caress that" attitude among common population. E: according to Meduza interviews there is a "gently caress that" attititude even among contractors who are ok to go to Syria or Africa Sekenr fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Dec 23, 2021 |
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Dec 23, 2021 21:46
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FishBulbia posted:Romantic nationalism of the 1848 strain =! passport nationality. addressed this above Interesting how nations don't exist if you disregard their existence for no good reason.
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Dec 23, 2021 21:53
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steinrokkan posted:Interesting how nations don't exist if you disregard their existence for no good reason. Romantic nationalism had no where near the societal depth of state nationalization campaigns. Like not even close. You're comparing a literary and artistic movement to a mass education campaign.
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Dec 23, 2021 22:25
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Are you getting this from Gellner, per chance? I hoped that strain of theory of nationalism had been thoroughly superseded.
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Dec 23, 2021 22:35
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steinrokkan posted:Are you getting this from Gellner, per chance? I hoped that strain of theory of nationalism had been thoroughly superseded. I'm not a pure functionalist like Gellner. But these are foundational observations and if they have been superseded I would love to know by what? Rehabilitated Herder?
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Dec 23, 2021 22:36
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Something like Anthony D. Smith's symbolism where the fact that pre-modern communities didn't necessarily have a formalized understanding of their nationhood in the modern sense didn't preclude them from being part of a continuum of nationhood in a way that authors like Gellner who emphasize revolutionary changes deny.
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Dec 23, 2021 22:42
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In Polish news, seems like the leader of opposition campaign staff has been hacked with Pegasus during last parliamentary elections. Also totally unrelated - at the same time the contents of his SMS and phone records were being reported on in state TV in a smear campaign.
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Dec 23, 2021 22:53
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Smith is just an attempt to rehabilitate debunked primordialism by adding an extra step. "Nations haven't existed forever, by ethnie has!" Yet he also seemingly accepts modernization theory, always placing the French revolution as a keep step in transforming ethnie into nation. He mainly engages with a complete strawman argument that Hobsbawm and Anderson supposedly say nation emerges from nothing. This is false. And he argues against this strawman by saying that tradition and ritual (not to mention language) always existed, something that no modernist denies. Indeed his main contention with Anderson seems to be the book's title, I seriously wonder if he read past it as he also accuses Anderson of being "western-centric." Among serious nationalism scholars modernization is still predominant. Although primordialism certainly dominates the public sphere. The mobs that will literally assault anyone expressing uncomfortable constructivist views show this.
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Dec 23, 2021 23:05
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Sekenr posted:No way will Russia invade Ukrane this winter imo. It will be a disaster for Putin regime, unless his standing troops manage to accomplish the whole whatever it is they want to do (which is honestly unclear), conscription to fight there will be "gently caress that" attitude among common population.
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Dec 23, 2021 23:13
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Sorry, what exactly is the point of this discussion on national states? Is it getting some place relevant to current events?
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Dec 23, 2021 23:24
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Strong as Kansas fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Dec 23, 2021 |
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Dec 23, 2021 23:28
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FishBulbia posted:Smith is just an attempt to rehabilitate debunked primordialism by adding an extra step. "Nations haven't existed forever, by ethnie has!" Do you have anything from anyone with a background in history for this, or is it just tedious sociologists? Because I'd suggest Serhii Plokhyy's works.
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Dec 23, 2021 23:31
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Sekenr posted:No way will Russia invade Ukrane this winter imo. It will be a disaster for Putin regime, unless his standing troops manage to accomplish the whole whatever it is they want to do (which is honestly unclear), conscription to fight there will be "gently caress that" attitude among common population. being a contractor in ukraine would be loving horrible 1) you're fighting regular army (which contractors typically get mulched by, to put it lightly) 2) you're fighting in ukraine in winter with poo poo supplies as a meat shield for regular russian army/incredibly undependable russian-affiliated ukrainian separtists 3) ukraine doesn't exactly have a ton of allies, but there are a lot of countries who are very interested in ukraine being able to put up at least some significant, costly resistance to Russian expansionism 3.1) those countries and interests have a ton of spare anti-tank launchers, manpads, and drone systems 3.2) ukraine has been buying the above as fast as anyone will sell them to them Like have fun getting shot at by snipers and drone striked while praying you don't get ordered into some absolute meatgrinder. No doubt russia could bully ukraine if interested, but it has seemed like they have made substantial progress destabilizing the zelenskiy government and setting things up to get more pro-russian factions in power, so idk why they wouldn't just finish that off versus take the risk of an invasion. According to zelenskiy himself, the former was nearly a fait accompli
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Dec 23, 2021 23:47
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Do you have anything from anyone with a background in history for this, or is it just tedious sociologists? Plokhy isn't a primordialist. "In the first decade of the nineteenth century, Napoleon and his soldiers brought the ideas of nation and popular sovereignty to the rest of Europe in their songs and at the points of their bayonets ... While the beginings of modern Ukrainian nation buildingsome scholars call it the heritage-gathering stagecame during and immediately after the Napoleonic Wars, the Polish uprising of 1830 influenced the next stage, which led to the formulation of the political program of the nascent national movement." This is however what you could define as romantic nationalism. The Ukrainization during the post revolutionary period delineated the territory of a Ukrainian nation-state as an entity. It turned heterogenaity into homogeneity as part of a process that Plokhy, if I recall, ingeniously compares the Byzantine christianization of Rus'. Make the new ideology indigenous. FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Dec 24, 2021 |
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Dec 24, 2021 00:09
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Grouchio posted:Where else can we read up on this Meduza? im guessing the article in question is https://meduza.io/en/feature/2021/12/23/a-road-to-nowhere
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Dec 24, 2021 00:25
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Paladinus posted:Sorry, what exactly is the point of this discussion on national states? Is it getting some place relevant to current events? In case you haven't heard, Ukraine isn't actually a nation, just a couple of breakaway Russian provinces who's good and true people crave nothing more than to be reunited with the motherland, but the CIA and its Nazi stooges won't let them.
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Dec 24, 2021 01:04
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Is it worth it to get whole rear end economy of the country blocked out of SWIFT for a chance to play real life map painting? Lets gently caress around and find out. Hi, I'm Vladimir Putin, welcome to Jackass
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Dec 24, 2021 12:15
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FishBulbia posted:national identity was a thing people did not care about for most of history. It wasn't until Soviet nationalities policy took hold that most normal people thought of themselves as Russian, Nenets or whatever. Rigidly defining and codifying it is recent, but regional identities and senses of difference were not totally invented wholecloth in all cases. The Soviet nationalities policies were created to address concerns about Great Russian chauvinism in the first place, which right off the bat would make absolutely no sense unless there was pre-existing senses of difference (even if yes those were also still relatively recent, just not Soviet recent).
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Dec 24, 2021 16:02
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Hannibal Rex posted:In case you haven't heard, Ukraine isn't actually a nation, just a couple of breakaway Russian provinces who's good and true people crave nothing more than to be reunited with the motherland, but the CIA and its Nazi stooges won't let them. Yeah if Ukrainians think they are a people/nation then they are. That's the only standard we should judge this issue by.
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Dec 24, 2021 16:11
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Well some if them, in particular in Crimea and the east, probably don't all think that. But I think regardless, invading on that premise kind of rude
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Dec 24, 2021 16:24
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Numlock posted:Yeah if Ukrainians think they are a people/nation then they are. That's the only standard we should judge this issue by. A counter argument is that is that this would mean recognition to any group who claim national identity, which would cause a wave of separatism and instability around world as every Transdnistria in the world would claim sovereignty in choir. And since ethnic, religious and political borders are not always straight lines, the end result would be tragic.
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Dec 24, 2021 16:25
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Nenonen posted:A counter argument is that is that this would mean recognition to any group who claim national identity, which would cause a wave of separatism and instability around world as every Transdnistria in the world would claim sovereignty in choir. And since ethnic, religious and political borders are not always straight lines, the end result would be tragic. Obviously it's a messy process, but should be done peacefully and by the consent of the people. Not by old white guy academics or Gangsters trying to prop up their failing kelptostates.
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Dec 24, 2021 16:39
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https://twitter.com/SputnikInt/status/1474407509624594435?t=uBkdeeoWtxFNHP8gHrcy9w&s=19
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Dec 24, 2021 16:54
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Well poo poo
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Dec 24, 2021 17:21
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Cugel the Clever posted:https://twitter.com/SputnikInt/status/1474407509624594435?t=uBkdeeoWtxFNHP8gHrcy9w&s=19 winter for Poland and France.
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Dec 24, 2021 18:13
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A lovely petrol bomb with no casualties? Nothingberger
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Dec 24, 2021 18:33
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Preoptopus posted:A lovely petrol bomb with no casualties? Nothingberger 
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Dec 24, 2021 18:55
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Preoptopus posted:A lovely petrol bomb with no casualties? Nothingberger
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Dec 24, 2021 18:58
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Grouchio posted:50/50 a false flag op for the shittiest casus belli imaginable. The other fifty is someone maddened by Russia's provocations and general uncertainty. Which could be anything from an unstable citizen to literal nazis. You'd think there'd be a lot of surveillance around the consulate.
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Dec 24, 2021 19:09
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Russians throwing some corpses in Ukrainian uniforms and copies of mein Kampf in the pockets out of the embassy windows to really lend some credibility to the scene
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Dec 24, 2021 19:11
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https://twitter.com/guardiannews/status/1474443387336069125 WW III started with a molotov cocktail.
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Dec 24, 2021 19:23
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Lol nobodies going to fight for Ukraine at best theyll send weapons . WW3 is over stuff like Poland or Lithuania.
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Dec 24, 2021 19:51
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Al-Saqr posted:Lol nobodies going to fight for Ukraine at best they’ll send weapons . WW3 is over stuff like Poland or Lithuania. Yeah, Ukraine will get our strongest thoughts and prayers. If the sanctions are actually effective on their elite this time, theyll maybe retaliate with drilling for oil in Antarctic.
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Dec 24, 2021 19:57
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Yeah, Ukraine will get our strongest thoughts and prayers. If the sanctions are actually effective on their elite this time, theyll maybe retaliate with drilling for oil in Antarctic. Well, they might be more effective if they sanction elites and not former Rostov gas station worker war criminals.
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Dec 24, 2021 20:00
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OddObserver posted:Well, they might be more effective if they sanction elites and not former Rostov gas station worker war criminals. Thats going to be up to the Americans, Im not holding my breath about Germany sticking its dick into boiling water quite yet, with the ongoing energy situation. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Dec 25, 2021 |
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Dec 24, 2021 20:27
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A french frigate has parked in Odessa. Jets being parked in Crimea by southern Russian air force. 4 Ceasefire violations in the border January is coming
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Dec 24, 2021 22:21
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bodycam footage of operations aboard the ship https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE6Jv6-ikOw
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Dec 24, 2021 22:37
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i say swears online posted:bodycam footage of operations aboard the ship I appreciate this.
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Dec 24, 2021 23:21
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(Why am I reacting to every bit of news like Russia's gonna drag NATO into direct conflict over ukraine when that's 'unlikely?' Too much coffee?)
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Dec 25, 2021 00:13
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