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It's the internet, so there's always a counter-example. But the perception that any social imperfection is damning is what helps leverage Trump voters into Capitol rioters. The notion is widespread, and intentionally propagandized by RWM to explain social progress as a sinister plot. Instead of viewing "controversial" topics and figures as examples of society arcing towards compassion, it's presented as a nefarious coordinated effort by "the SJWs" or the "woke mob" to make you look bad. Maybe the end goal is to help usher in an era of satanic socialism, keep God out of schools, or somehow make things weird and unfamiliar and bad. But the point is that imagined persecution has been weaponized by conservatives. That's more relevant than the fact that examples of it exist. Assholes exist across the political spectrum, but the manufactured fear of persecution is only leveraged by conservative institutions. The organized persecution myth is part of the deliberate escalation of every conflict into a battleground in some imagined culture war. It's an effort to strengthen support in a shrinking demographic. You can see the endstate of this in Qanon supporters; These are people whose social bonds have been deliberately broken in a cynical bid for red votes. It's admittedly a bigger topic than fits the boardgame business thread, but it's pervasive by design. You had elements of this in 4e when empowering martial classes was decried as socialism. Everything is political when you're completely invested in your political identity. People have been sold the idea that their opinions are being attacked, when really they're just becoming outdated. This ultimately becomes half of a false equivalence: Oh you think it's hard being trans? Well look at how conservatives are demonized. It's how you win a national election and hold mainstream representation, while still maintaining that you're some kind of persecuted minority.
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Dec 28, 2021 09:46
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moths posted:It's admittedly a bigger topic than fits the boardgame business thread, but it's pervasive by design. You had elements of this in 4e when empowering martial classes was decried as socialism. Everything is political when you're completely invested in your political identity.
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Dec 28, 2021 11:37
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90s Cringe Rock posted:Caster supremacy is literally fascism, yes. I mean set specific D&D editions aside and "what if we could drag the culture war into the elfgameosphere and make RPG-gate" is a thing that people have tried to do repeatedly, and it's only really failed to metastasize into an actual movement as far as I can tell because A). tabletop RPGs are generally much more niche even today than video games or comic books and B). the individuals in question who would love to be the masterminds behind the movement are so abjectly pathetic that even other assholes are embarrassed to rally around them.
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Dec 28, 2021 12:40
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90s Cringe Rock posted:Caster supremacy is literally fascism, yes. It's more that a lot of folks have invested heavily in the idea of a world where some people are just better than others. Any challenge to that is a subtle cry for Marxism and another opportunity to talk about Rush's loving song about trees.
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Dec 28, 2021 14:16
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moths posted:This is kind of a right-wing myth, though. https://www.theonion.com/man-always-gets-little-rush-out-of-telling-people-john-1819578998
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Dec 28, 2021 17:14
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moths posted:It's more that a lot of folks have invested heavily in the idea of a world where some people are just better than others. Well, any RPG with stats carries that. And heck, it's true, it's just that the better people aren't segregated by race or gender or pretty much anything else clear. Caster supremacy was always revenge of the nerds and the 80s obsession with tech/software as a skill that let you do anything. See also cinematic hacking. Either that or it was a badly resolved holdover in the transition from a mini skirmish game.
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Dec 28, 2021 17:20
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While wizards and to a slightly lesser extent clerics always got the ridiculous goodies, I believe that if you sit down and play through some AD&D 1E and 2E, the gap is a lot smaller there, especially since many of the material components for big magic are a. explicitly stated and b. would, at least, cost money to get hold of. Spellcasting was also a lot more tenuous and there were various other levers that would make being a wizard shittier, as well as a system which I believe worked better in terms of "accomplishing in-game goals" for martial types even if it may have been relatively boring. The thing is that most of this poo poo was always technically optional and easily ignored, and I think 3E just DID ignore a lot of it, while also removing various other petty annoyances and regulations and somewhat squashing on fighters. In a certain sense, of course, this was just making very common house rules into the default, but even so...
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Dec 28, 2021 17:24
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Nessus posted:While wizards and to a slightly lesser extent clerics always got the ridiculous goodies, I believe that if you sit down and play through some AD&D 1E and 2E, the gap is a lot smaller there, especially since many of the material components for big magic are a. explicitly stated and b. would, at least, cost money to get hold of. the big thing is magic resistance, it's like THAC0 if the latter never scaled with stats or levels, and there are plenty of monsters in the 75-100% range. it's not an elegant solution but "yeah magic just literally doesn't work on this monster" certainly limits the impact of casters a bit e: a lot of creatures also have comprehensive lists of immunities (check out the AD&D 2E Lich entry for a laugh), and there's always the Globe family of spells for making your NPC wizard boss enemy functionally immune to low-level magic Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Dec 28, 2021 |
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Dec 28, 2021 17:42
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Nessus posted:While wizards and to a slightly lesser extent clerics always got the ridiculous goodies, I believe that if you sit down and play through some AD&D 1E and 2E, the gap is a lot smaller there, especially since many of the material components for big magic are a. explicitly stated and b. would, at least, cost money to get hold of. Yeah, this is absolutely what happened. For all that people decried 4e as "video gaming" D&D, 3e actually reflected a LOT of little bits and changes in video game adaptations of 2e that, in the aggregate, made wizarding a lot easier and more powerful. But, as you said, very common house rules as well. But if you played hard and fast with the rules, back in 2e wizards had a lot of stuff meant to encourage them to husband their casting resources rather than unload and get it all back after the next night's sleep. For example, spell prep time. 10 minutes of prep time per spell level per spell, on top of the need for 8 hours of sleep. A low-level wizard could refresh their whole stock of spell slots relatively quickly. A mid-to-high level wizard was tacking hours on to resting time, hours which could provoke more wandering monster checks which would screw with their ability to finish restocking. So the wizard was supposed to only fully recharge in a safe situation, because trying to memorize everything was a huge risk in the field or in a dungeon. If you're only getting like 6 spell levels' worth of spells back after you rest because you can only really afford an extra hour's prep time, even if you're Wizard Lord Fauntleroy the Magnificent, you better make your spells count. And then a bunch of people and video games went, not unreasonably, "Hot drat that's unfun to keep track of," about that and a lot of other fiddly bookkeeping, and eventually D&D followed suit.
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Dec 28, 2021 17:45
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hyphz posted:Well, any RPG with stats carries that. And heck, it's true, it's just that the better people aren't segregated by race or gender or pretty much anything else clear. I don't mean stronger or better looking - there's always going to be a variation in ability and that's fine. The idea that some people are better is separate. It's the notion that some human lives are more valuable than others, that certain people's suffering and struggles are less meaningful. They'll bristle at talk of equality because, to them, "equality" is something that's inflicted on the betters (ie: them) to make them more like their lessers. With axes and saws, like the song. Or handicapped like in Harrison Bergeron, that lovely Vonnegut short story. These are the shitheads who'll post a tall, fit blonde next to an ancient toothless African woman and quip "Same species?  " as if we all aren't in this together.It's hateful as gently caress, but it's a staple of fascist thought. People won't guiltlessly exploit or impose their will on their equals, which necessitates the lie that the others are somehow "less." The other is less valuable and worse, or the acting group is superior and better. I realize this is a long way from a shitpost about caster supremacy being fascism, but the fantasy that "some people are just better" isn't harmless.
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Dec 28, 2021 18:00
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disposablewords posted:Yeah, this is absolutely what happened. For all that people decried 4e as "video gaming" D&D, 3e actually reflected a LOT of little bits and changes in video game adaptations of 2e that, in the aggregate, made wizarding a lot easier and more powerful. But, as you said, very common house rules as well. But if you played hard and fast with the rules, back in 2e wizards had a lot of stuff meant to encourage them to husband their casting resources rather than unload and get it all back after the next night's sleep. I love how in the Eye of the Beholder games you could just find a place without immediate monsters nearby and rest for in-game days with no consequences.
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Dec 28, 2021 18:00
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Kai Tave posted:I mean set specific D&D editions aside and "what if we could drag the culture war into the elfgameosphere and make RPG-gate" is a thing that people have tried to do repeatedly, and it's only really failed to metastasize into an actual movement as far as I can tell because A). tabletop RPGs are generally much more niche even today than video games or comic books and B). the individuals in question who would love to be the masterminds behind the movement are so abjectly pathetic that even other assholes are embarrassed to rally around them. And on a broader scale, the modern strain of right wing extremism drew a lot of its initial support from nerd spaces and used them as a testing ground for its tactics (see: Gamergate). I think one of the big reasons this worked is because a lot nerds are already really rooted in the rhetoric these extremists rely on, it just wasn't directed at politics. Like, the edition war backlash against 4e wasn't politically motivated in and of itself, but a lot of the rhetoric and arguments people dumping on 4e used was rooted in a lot of the same philosophies that underlie reactionary political movements, except, y'know, directed at a completely apolitical topic. That's why it doesn't surprise me a lot of nerds got led down the radicalization pipeline.
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Dec 28, 2021 18:19
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I mean, some of the reasoning behind caster supremacy is that people should be rewarded for their smart choices and casters are for smart people who posses greater skills and system mastery than others. This is the sort of reasoning that reminds me of those fucks that mock people that work menial jobs while they only got a university degree because their parents were able to ship them to another town, pay for the apartment and whatever expanses. Motherlover your good choices were provided for you
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Dec 28, 2021 18:28
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:the big thing is magic resistance, it's like THAC0 if the latter never scaled with stats or levels, and there are plenty of monsters in the 75-100% range. it's not an elegant solution but "yeah magic just literally doesn't work on this monster" certainly limits the impact of casters a bit Not to mention how much better Fighter and especially Dwarf/Halfling saves are. As an 11th level Magic User, Disintegrate only has a 33% chance of instakilling a Fighter of equal level and that's your ONLY 6th level spell for the day. Tying save progression to stats and allowing casters to hinder the saves of others really hosed with overall class balance.
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Dec 28, 2021 20:05
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Covermeinsunshine posted:I mean, some of the reasoning behind caster supremacy is that people should be rewarded for their smart choices and casters are for smart people who posses greater skills and system mastery than others. This is the sort of reasoning that reminds me of those fucks that mock people that work menial jobs while they only got a university degree because their parents were able to ship them to another town, pay for the apartment and whatever expanses. Motherlover your good choices were provided for you  If you know this and it was intentional, well, don't mind me.
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Dec 29, 2021 06:16
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KingKalamari posted:And on a broader scale, the modern strain of right wing extremism drew a lot of its initial support from nerd spaces and used them as a testing ground for its tactics (see: Gamergate). I think one of the big reasons this worked is because a lot nerds are already really rooted in the rhetoric these extremists rely on, it just wasn't directed at politics. Most people I knew who shitted on 4e usually just found really creative ways to tell me they never played the game, or any edition of DnD for that matter. Same with 5e actually. I remember seeing a channer having an apocalyptic meltdown because in 5e, a fighter cannot kill 1000 goblins by his lonesome. He literally wrote a math problem out for it and demonstrated that "fighters were poo poo in this edition" because they would, on average, be able to kill about 300 or so before dying, assuming plate armor and sword and board. When someone brought up the fact that he wasn't accounting for magical items, the fact that no dungeon master alive would be willing to actually run 1000 v 1 in a wide flat open space with no terrain features, etc, he stopped replying. I've met anti-4e people who also would say things like "UNLIMITED MAGIC MISSILES? WHY EVEN FOLLOW THE DUNGEON PATH AT ALL WHEN WE CAN JUST INFINITELY SPAM THIS SPELL AND TUNNEL STRAIGHT TO WHERE THE BOSS IS!??" which is literally just you screaming "I DONT KNOW HOW TO PLAY OR WHAT DND IS" basically. Modern reactionary movements tend to take something innocuous and make it sinister, at least that's what we've been dealing with the last few years with stuff like the anti-CRT backlash, which has parallels but the goal is different. The right is trying to build support among undecided people by implying evil acts, while most of the people described above seem to be just inventing a reason in their head to not play the game. I also think nerds, after many years of interacting with them online, tend to just feel the need to bitch and whine about stuff. There's that meme of the guy with 5,000 hours in a steam game and his review is just "its ok" but a lot of nerds I've met on and offline have this attitude, they will sink 250 hours into Stellaris "I dunno I wish it was better :/" they will buy every single 5e release in lockstep on day one "I kind of prefer X edition :/" etc etc. I used to think these people were idiots but they account for a massive number of really intelligent people I know now. I personally know three different PHD candidates that go "meh its okay I guess" over some nerd property while having tattoos of that poo poo on their bodies. It's wild. The world is wild! ERWs are much more goal oriented, their endgoal isn't to have people vote for democrats nonstop and go "meh i dont like democrats :/". If that makes sense.
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Dec 29, 2021 06:22
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:If you are a new user I am pleased to inform you that you are allowed to swear here - the "lover" thing is a word filter for unregistered users so google doesn't penalize the site. OP called some people “fucks” in the post so I think they’re hip to the scene.
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Dec 29, 2021 06:30
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Speaking of the dragon in the room, I've recently read two somewhat sobering posts in a series: Why No RPG Company Truly Competes with Wizards of the Coast and The Real Competition for D&D and Wizards of the Coast. tl;dr is that D&D is essentially a multimedia phenomenon and a brand, and its actual competitors are similar phenomena, like Marvel/Disney, even if they don't go into the RPG space. The closest thing to an RPG-focused competitor is Critical Role, because it's also a multimedia phenomenon. I feel like some of these arguments appeared in this thread, but it's convenient to have the whole thing collected. Subjunctive posted:OP called some people “fucks” in the post so I think they’re hip to the scene. What the gently caress?!
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Dec 29, 2021 06:39
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Most people I knew who shitted on 4e usually just found really creative ways to tell me they never played the game, or any edition of DnD for that matter. Same with 5e actually. I remember seeing a channer having an apocalyptic meltdown because in 5e, a fighter cannot kill 1000 goblins by his lonesome. He literally wrote a math problem out for it and demonstrated that "fighters were poo poo in this edition" because they would, on average, be able to kill about 300 or so before dying, assuming plate armor and sword and board. When someone brought up the fact that he wasn't accounting for magical items, the fact that no dungeon master alive would be willing to actually run 1000 v 1 in a wide flat open space with no terrain features, etc, he stopped replying. To be fair, this is an important consideration for D&D - OD&D, which basically no one these days is seriously playing or comparing the modern game to.
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Dec 29, 2021 06:45
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Absurd Alhazred posted:tl;dr is that D&D is essentially a multimedia phenomenon and a brand, and its actual competitors are similar phenomena, like Marvel/Disney, even if they don't go into the RPG space. The closest thing to an RPG-focused competitor is Critical Role, because it's also a multimedia phenomenon. this is how the world ends: the only competitor to D&D is Critical Role Plays D&D
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Dec 29, 2021 07:40
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Arivia posted:To be fair, this is an important consideration for D&D - OD&D, which basically no one these days is seriously playing or comparing the modern game to. what
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Dec 29, 2021 07:47
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OD&D, when you're using the Chainmail combat system (it has like three separate ones that work on different scales) is seriously a game of one fighter versus hundreds of goblins or whatever. In other words, the ability of a fighter to fight hundreds of opponents is actually a valid point for comparing different editions of D&D, just not one that's very common these days.
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Dec 29, 2021 07:48
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Arivia posted:OD&D, when you're using the Chainmail combat system (it has like three separate ones that work on different scales) is seriously a game of one fighter versus hundreds of goblins or whatever. In other words, the ability of a fighter to fight hundreds of opponents is actually a valid point for comparing different editions of D&D, just not one that's very common these days. I have yet to hear of someone actually reporting a session of DnD where they just fought a thousand guys in a flat open space with zero GM fiat, handwaving, terrain features, magic items, etc. Alone. The point I was making is that it's not a realistic expectation of DnD and never really has been. You can spike higher in odd74 and kill stronger enemies, but every play report I've read of those games usually reports a blood bath or tacticool OSR dungeon sneak adventures
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Dec 29, 2021 07:55
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:I have yet to hear of someone actually reporting a session of DnD where they just fought a thousand guys in a flat open space with zero GM fiat, handwaving, terrain features, magic items, etc. Alone. The point I was making is that it's not a realistic expectation of DnD and never really has been. You can spike higher in odd74 and kill stronger enemies, but every play report I've read of those games usually reports a blood bath or tacticool OSR dungeon sneak adventures And Arivia is pointing out that while this is true of just about all versions of D&D done now, it wasn't back in the day and there's probably some people still doing it because sufficiently large groups of people always get idiosyncratic.
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Dec 29, 2021 07:59
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Absurd Alhazred posted:
For the record that was not aimed at anyone in this thread/forum
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Dec 29, 2021 08:40
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Speaking of the dragon in the room, I've recently read two somewhat sobering posts in a series: Why No RPG Company Truly Competes with Wizards of the Coast and The Real Competition for D&D and Wizards of the Coast. tl;dr is that D&D is essentially a multimedia phenomenon and a brand, and its actual competitors are similar phenomena, like Marvel/Disney, even if they don't go into the RPG space. The closest thing to an RPG-focused competitor is Critical Role, because it's also a multimedia phenomenon. This is what I’ve been saying about DND, Magic and Warhammer for awhile, they’re not competing with other games in their genre, they are the genre and everything else is drafting off of them. Their real competition is other types of entertainment like streaming video, video games, social media and film. Which is why I find it so frustrating that they’re still being run like it’s 1995. I work in mobile games and there are so many things that we do to build, maintain and monetize our audience that the big TTGs could be taking advantage of and are just ignoring it. For instance, one of the big concepts in mobile games is reducing friction, which means streamlining the First Time User Experience (FTUE) so that they can easily pick up the game and want to continue coming back to play. None of the big TTGs are doing that. All other thing being equal If somebody is faced with a choice between playing Candy Crush with its frictionless entry point, or with playing DND with its relative huge barrier of entry they’re going to pick up their phone and forget that pile of books and funny dice.
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Dec 29, 2021 09:23
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It's a nerd hobby, the barrier to entry is in itself a selling point. Edit: Not to mention that being a multimedia empire, D&D et al. already have frictionless entry points, they're just not the actual printed game of D&D. Edit: Lmao look at Starfinder losing to D&D 3.5. 
Siivola fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Dec 29, 2021 |
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Dec 29, 2021 09:25
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Hello all!I recently completed ]my Tabletop RPG, DEAD IN THE WEST! It was funded on Kickstarter a while back, and earlier this year all the physical copies for backers finally shipped after a long delay due to COVID. I guess, as someone totally green to the industry, I'd like to ask if anyone has any advice on shifting copies of my little indie game? I have about 25 books left from the first run. I really have no idea where to start - a few local stores are carrying it, and I made a big long effortpost on these forums that seems to have slipped by unnoticed.         For those curious, you can hear some folks playing my game on this cute little actual play podcast. Additionally, if anyone is interested themselves, digital and physical copies are available here. Code "goonsgowest" will also give you a lil' discont! any advice and help welcome!
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Dec 29, 2021 10:04
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I think 'uncategorized' just means you didn't pick a system when you made the Roll20 game - which you might not bother to do if you've already got your players set up and you don't need to post an ad. So a fair bit of that 20ish% uncategorized is probably D&D as well.
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Dec 29, 2021 13:31
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GreenMetalSun posted:I think 'uncategorized' just means you didn't pick a system when you made the Roll20 game - which you might not bother to do if you've already got your players set up and you don't need to post an ad. So a fair bit of that 20ish% uncategorized is probably D&D as well. Been a while since I tinkered with Roll20, but does picking a system give you access to system-specific tools (like character sheets etc.)? Because if so I imagine most people using a system which has specific support on Roll20 would make sure to pick a system when setting up the campaign because why wouldn't you give yourself access to those tools if they're available, even if you decide later to switch to bespoke character sheets or something?
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Dec 29, 2021 13:49
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Warthur posted:Been a while since I tinkered with Roll20, but does picking a system give you access to system-specific tools (like character sheets etc.)? Because if so I imagine most people using a system which has specific support on Roll20 would make sure to pick a system when setting up the campaign because why wouldn't you give yourself access to those tools if they're available, even if you decide later to switch to bespoke character sheets or something? Yeah, it does.
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Dec 29, 2021 14:13
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When I still used roll20 I basically never used the internal sheets or whatever because they were pretty terrible so all my games would have been "uncategorized"
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Dec 29, 2021 14:20
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Siivola posted:It's a nerd hobby, the barrier to entry is in itself a selling point. The full version of this report is pretty interesting too:  
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Dec 29, 2021 14:33
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Imho in Warhammer (wfrp, soulbound and W&G) case those % would probably be higher if Foundry did not exist.
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Dec 29, 2021 14:37
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Covermeinsunshine posted:Imho in Warhammer (wfrp, soulbound and W&G) case those % would probably be higher if Foundry did not exist. From my impression (and I could be totally off base, I have no actual data on this) a lot of PF 2nd ed is being played on Foundry instead of Roll20 as well.
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Dec 29, 2021 14:38
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Warthur posted:Been a while since I tinkered with Roll20, but does picking a system give you access to system-specific tools (like character sheets etc.)? Because if so I imagine most people using a system which has specific support on Roll20 would make sure to pick a system when setting up the campaign because why wouldn't you give yourself access to those tools if they're available, even if you decide later to switch to bespoke character sheets or something? Yes. All Roll20 reports are heavily skewed by how much support Roll20, the company, has made available for the specific game, so it's actually not a great barometer for the industry.
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Dec 29, 2021 14:42
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Warthur posted:Been a while since I tinkered with Roll20, but does picking a system give you access to system-specific tools (like character sheets etc.)? Because if so I imagine most people using a system which has specific support on Roll20 would make sure to pick a system when setting up the campaign because why wouldn't you give yourself access to those tools if they're available, even if you decide later to switch to bespoke character sheets or something? I think, but I could be wrong (been a while since I made a Roll20 game), that 'what type of character sheet are you using' and 'what system are you advertising for' are separate decisions.
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Dec 29, 2021 14:54
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GreenMetalSun posted:I think, but I could be wrong (been a while since I made a Roll20 game), that 'what type of character sheet are you using' and 'what system are you advertising for' are separate decisions. Yeah, you get the options for a game when you select the sheet, but it doesn't fill in the drop down for what system a game is for. And there are systems that have sheets, but don't have an option to say that that's the game you're playing. Like I'm planning a one shot of the old Bubblegum Crisis RPG by R. Talsorian Games, and while there's an Interlock/Fuzion character sheet, there's no Fuzion or BGC label available for the game itself. So chances are, a huge chunk of those unlabeled games are just more 5e games that didn't bother setting that.
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Dec 29, 2021 15:43
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Thinking about it more, I get more and more glad all my games have moved to Foundry other than one.
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Dec 29, 2021 16:00
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ShallNoiseUpon posted:The full version of this report is pretty interesting too: What the gently caress are Tormenta and inSANe? TheDiceMustRoll posted:[snip] While this is a good point, you also have to keep in mind that the recent strategies of the ERW have involved two groups: The smaller demographic of ERW ideologues who are actively directing efforts, and the more apathetic masses that they can get to nominally support them. The latter group are usually not die-hards in their own right, and might not even care about the ideology they're supporting, but are key to the efforts of the ERW. As people who can easily get worked up about a perceived change to the status quo, nerds are an ideal breeding ground for the latter group.
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Dec 29, 2021 16:33
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