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Smith states that everything must have a purpose. And throughout reloaded and revolutions he comes to the conclusion the purpose of life is to end. We know he takes over most if not all of the matrix through his possession, which neo described as the same feeling as dying. Including in his takeover are all programs he can find. So Smith wants to bring about the death of all humans, programs, and machines. This is definitely a form of liberation, but there's also not much future with this path either. Neo and the oracle though are hopeful that they can bring about a new future in which program, machine, and human all live in harmony. There is obviously some utopia idealism here, and I will agree that from an economic point of view, its not really clear how this will all fallout and function. Matrix 4 says Utopia didnt happen easily, with a machine civil war from starvation and then killing off old Zion as the revolutionary machines did not honor the same treaty. IO is made to be more of the utopia city, but they still hide and seem to be ruled by a General. A new modern matrix is formed, and even during all of the events its not toppled. But then the machines still need some power sources. So Neo and Trinity promise then to make the matrix a better place through their power of love. So I think we just have that Wachowski optimism. An ideal nation like IO where all kinds can live and work together will not come easily, but it can be achieved. And as for the capitalist structures, well those are still needed, but with love they can be made more humane.
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Dec 30, 2021 08:44
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Alchenar posted:Yeah if they knew they were fighting a doomed battle to buy time for Neo to do his thing then I would care about their struggle more, but as it is the whole sequence to open the gate and get the Hammer in falls a bit flat because none of the characters really know why it matters that they buy a bit of time. Matrix 1: "An EMP is our only defense against the machines." Matrix 3: "Or, y'know, bullets. Those work too."
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Dec 30, 2021 11:39
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It was so weird, after Mouse in the first movie talks about how nobody can be sure if anything in the Matrix is authentic because they rely on machine interpretation, that the General gleefully exclaims they have recreated tasty fruits based on Matrix DNA code.
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Dec 30, 2021 11:46
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The fruits they eat in the real world are still tasty. Who knows or cares if they’re accurate.
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Dec 30, 2021 11:47
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SolarFire2 posted:Matrix 1: "An EMP is our only defense against the machines." Retcon but the Neb seemed to actually only have the EMP (because it made it more dramatic in the context of that movie). They weren't giving information for 'oh yeah we can just shoot them. And by we I mean humanity. We can't. By that we I mean us specifically."
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Dec 30, 2021 11:47
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Shiroc posted:Retcon but the Neb seemed to actually only have the EMP (because it made it more dramatic in the context of that movie). They weren't giving information for 'oh yeah we can just shoot them. And by we I mean humanity. We can't. By that we I mean us specifically." I wonder if the rebels are concerned with the machines recapturing escaped humans, as well as the issues with speed and maneuverability that would come up if you loaded the ship with turrets and the 550,000 bullets necessary to repel a squid attack, which can close distance in the endless sewer system that is Earth really fast.
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Dec 30, 2021 11:54
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Finally had a chance to watch it. I thought the movie was too long and bloated (the Mets joke stuff at the beginning goes on too long) but I liked the story and loving loved the ending.
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Dec 30, 2021 11:54
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Bedshaped posted:It was so weird, after Mouse in the first movie talks about how nobody can be sure if anything in the Matrix is authentic because they rely on machine interpretation, that the General gleefully exclaims they have recreated tasty fruits based on Matrix DNA code. The machines not being inherently untrustworthy or antagonistic is a pretty big theme in this one.
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Dec 30, 2021 12:24
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josh04 posted:The machines not being inherently untrustworthy or antagonistic is a pretty big theme in this one. Even at the very end the Analyst is all 'okay so we're going to bargain now?'
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Dec 30, 2021 12:30
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Bedshaped posted:It was so weird, after Mouse in the first movie talks about how nobody can be sure if anything in the Matrix is authentic because they rely on machine interpretation, that the General gleefully exclaims they have recreated tasty fruits based on Matrix DNA code. Yeah it's so weird it's almost as if the person who wrote it was just kind of half-assing it
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Dec 30, 2021 12:50
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Bedshaped posted:It was so weird, after Mouse in the first movie talks about how nobody can be sure if anything in the Matrix is authentic because they rely on machine interpretation, that the General gleefully exclaims they have recreated tasty fruits based on Matrix DNA code. I mean, he was very clearly just bringing up the philosophical concept of qualia, not having any sort of actual practical issue with the food.
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Dec 30, 2021 14:59
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Ferrinus posted:In reality, you can't simply walk up to someone, put your hand on their chest, and turn them into your duplicate. Aren't both Witchowskis huge libertarians? A lot of strange decisions in the series make more sense if you consider that they were written through that filter. Like Trinity, becoming aware of new information, making the flawless emotionless rational decision to turn on her family. Or how the freedom movement is just waiting for a Big Man to show up and lead them to victory. Or how most people are NPC bots.
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Dec 30, 2021 15:03
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There's no reason to eat a strawberry when a bowl of grey snot provides everything the body needs. Maybe more important than the qualia of consuming a machine strawberry is the implications of sourcing your produce from a regime you are wholly morally opposed to for their exploitative practices. Liberalism analogy etc Accompanying image: machines torturing people to figure out their brains from animatrix
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Dec 30, 2021 15:26
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moths posted:Or how most people are NPC bots. I think the "bots" in Resurrections are, I don't know, more like troll bots on social media like Facebook or Twitter, just empty representations of people who can all be turned at a moment's notice into a force for negative social upheaval. Yes, in the original movie there was the line that went like "some people are so tied to the system that they'll fight to protect it", and that was about that rightwing libertarian idea of "NPC"s (or "sheeple" as they called them back then). I think Lana has softened her political views since then, hence why some of the machines are benign now. I think Lana is probably still anti-Space Communism with automated machines working for us instead of their corporate creators, but maybe she's less against it now? Kinda?
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Dec 30, 2021 15:57
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Neo was inspired to create nuMorpheus after watching a bunch of YouTube videos of people torturing their sims by trapping them in doorless houses and poo poo.
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Dec 30, 2021 16:07
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I think there's some confusion in how the bots are presented - until "swarm mode" turns them into zombies they're equal to and indistinguishable from humans. They're capable of independent thought, and presumably love - yet they're less than human because the author tells us so. That's, to me, a huge red flag that we're getting into some fash-adjacent poo poo.
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Dec 30, 2021 16:13
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King Vidiot posted:I think Lana has softened her political views since then, hence why some of the machines are benign now. I think Lana is probably still anti-Space Communism with automated machines working for us instead of their corporate creators, but maybe she's less against it now? Kinda?
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Dec 30, 2021 16:34
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VROOM VROOM posted:The Matrix is not a computer simulation; the Matrix is control. The comforts of Io are the result of their acceptance of the existence of the Matrix and their refusal to liberate those still trapped by it. After Neo escapes to go rescue Trinity, Niobe admits to being scared of losing what they have as a result of disrupting the status quo (but also as Freya notes she is grateful that the crew of the Mnemosyne took the leap that she has been too scared to - very appropriate that the ship named after the goddess of memory is the one to remind Niobe of the fighting spirit that she had forgotten). The strawberry being derived from Matrix code is just a particularly on-the-nose representation of this. They're "quite excited about the blueberries" while people are still trapped in the Matrix, and so on. Also the strawberry is genetically engineered beyond its retro-conversion from Matrix code, so it's hardly a reclaiming of the original, more of a tempting illusion if anything. The first film is about as explicit as it can get that many people would not prefer a life of living in the sewers eating gruel.
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Dec 30, 2021 16:49
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SUNKOS posted:He kills Neo. I'm referring to the character in the sequels: the 'unplugged' Smith. In Matrix 3, Smith does not kill Neo. Neo kills himself, with the assistance of the giant robot baby head, in order to perform a suicide attack on Smith. Shiroc posted:That's why Bane, the most devoted Smithist of all, sabotages the intended Zion counter attack, helping the machines speed along to the destruction of Zion, along with murdering a ship doctor. Bane-Smith is a distinct character, disconnected from the Smith collective. He consequently, obviously behaves very differently from the others - effectively becomes 'all too human'. That being said, Zion are the 'villains' - a libertarian cult compound whose members are striving to destroy the matrix and Smith along with it (recall that Smith is, collectively, six or seven billion people). As noted before, Smith is literally depicted as a spirit or angel. So, while it may be scary to be overtaken by the bad spirit, it's "not so bad when you get to know him." Similar imagery is employed in films like Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance (and gently parodied in Venom). moths posted:I think there's some confusion in how the bots are presented - until "swarm mode" turns them into zombies they're equal to and indistinguishable from humans. They're capable of independent thought, and presumably love - yet they're less than human because the author tells us so. The right-wingery was really dissapointing after the promising detail in the opening scene - that "blue pills" (in the form of the blue sunglasses) are beneficial in reducing the red pill's awful side effects. The hint is that blue isn't 'bad'; it's just about maintaining your sanity.
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Dec 30, 2021 17:04
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ruddiger posted:They’re just cut/pasted into a sub directory in another part of the matrix until Smith gives them back control of their simulacrums. When Smith’s done with them, they have no memory of what happened, violent or otherwise. They don’t come out of being Smithed saying “who was in my body?” or “why did you shoot me?” They wake up wondering where they are and why they’re leaking body fluids. "My hand was where?"
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Dec 30, 2021 17:40
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RBA Starblade posted:"My hand was where?" Between two pillows.
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Dec 30, 2021 17:58
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:In Matrix 3, Smith does not kill Neo. Neo kills himself, with the assistance of the giant robot baby head, in order to perform a suicide attack on Smith. Smith literally kills Neo with his own bare hand.
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Dec 30, 2021 18:08
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The hero of the next Matrix film is a Russian guy whose job is to post fake comments on the internet and by degrees he becomes aware that his coworkers are automatons designed to create the illusion that keeps him under control.
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Dec 30, 2021 18:24
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The bots are not real people or even real AIs. They are artificial constructs who exist to keep the real people in the Matrix is a constant state of depression and discomfort. They are an extrapolation of bots that exist on current social media who mimic real people to either sow discord or make money. They are those dudes who post about how they love working at Amazon and totally don't pee in bottles, just taken to a horrifying extreme where they have replace real interactions as well.
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Dec 30, 2021 18:47
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SUNKOS posted:Smith literally kills Neo with his own bare hand. No, that's the 'possession by evil spirit' move that he used to radicalize everyone else. Smith asks Possessed Neo "Is it over?", then Deus Ex Machina pumps a bunch of nonspecific energy into Possessed Neo, killing both Neo and the Smith-spirit, exorcising all the possessed humans.
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Dec 30, 2021 18:49
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I'm referring to the character in the sequels: the 'unplugged' Smith. While Smith says he is not so bad, Neo distinctly says that the Smith infection process is the same as when he was shot by smith. And this Smith states that his goal is to fulfil the purpose of all life: to end. He may be giving them the most pure freedom, but this is death. In the algorithm controlled internet analogy of this matrix, the swarm mode can be the fact that anyone can be manipulated by the perceived pop culture and be used to vote down new ideas or even people. Here it has more to do with corporate control than right wingers. But agreed, if you wanted a direct statement against the right wing red pill movement, then the film doesnt really do that. Lana has told red pillers to gently caress off, but it seems she did not want to even acknowledge it in this film. It was not even mentioned during the game sequel pitch meeting. I guess its one of those things where if you make it officially part of the film do you give it more credibility? Because others co-opted it does she need to?
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Dec 30, 2021 18:52
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ImpAtom posted:The bots are not real people or even real AIs. They are artificial constructs who exist to keep the real people in the Matrix is a constant state of depression and discomfort. They are an extrapolation of bots that exist on current social media who mimic real people to either sow discord or make money. So in this account is tiffany's husband a bot or something different? To me it strains plausibility that the father of your two kids could serve in that role but not qualify as a "real AI"
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Dec 30, 2021 19:00
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moths posted:Aren't both Witchowskis huge libertarians? A lot of strange decisions in the series make more sense if you consider that they were written through that filter. It's still really funny to me that poor Neo is surrounded by hostile NPCs and seething at the fact that the woman he knows is meant for him has been taken by Chad. Unfortunately, there's no way around the fact that NPCs - Chad included - are people, and have reasons for doing what they do. The good news is, icing normies is justifiable as far back as Matrix 1. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Bane-Smith is a distinct character, disconnected from the Smith collective. He consequently, obviously behaves very differently from the others - effectively becomes 'all too human'. That being said, Zion are the 'villains' - a libertarian cult compound whose members are striving to destroy the matrix and Smith along with it (recall that Smith is, collectively, six or seven billion people). I'm really enjoying the "actually Bane-smith doesn't count, but even if he does they deserved it" here, but Smith isn't six or seven billion people. Smith is a phenomenon replacing and suppressing the consciousness of seven billion people. Killing Smith is, in fact, the only way to allow those people to continue to live. If I jump into your body such that you cease to perceive reality or think at all, and then I just stay there indefinitely, I've as good as killed you. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Dec 30, 2021 |
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Dec 30, 2021 19:17
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checkplease posted:While Smith says he is not so bad, Neo distinctly says that the Smith infection process is the same as when he was shot by smith. And this Smith states that his goal is to fulfil the purpose of all life: to end. He may be giving them the most pure freedom, but this is death.  Stunned by Chuang Tzu's foolishness, the skull replied, "How do you know that it is bad to be dead?"
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Dec 30, 2021 19:20
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Ferrinus posted:It's still really funny to me that poor Neo is surrounded by hostile NPCs and seething at the fact that the woman he knows is meant for him has been taken by Chad. Unfortunately, there's no way around the fact that NPCs - Chad included - are people, and have reasons for doing what they do. The good news is, icing normies is justifiable as far back as Matrix 1.\ I agree it pretty much boils down to this. I don't know why people are doing this embarassing cope about some ludicrous distinction between artificial constructs and AIs, just own it that the movie is pretty OK with blowing away sheeple
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Dec 30, 2021 19:24
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They’re robots morty
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Dec 30, 2021 20:03
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Between two pillows. "There is no pillow."
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Dec 30, 2021 20:05
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The film goes out of its way to show us that a bot can be "one of the good ones," and the only difference between a sheeple NPC and a life to celebrate and protect seems to come down to whether they agree with the protagonists. They even draw an equivalence between the humans who prefer Matrix living and the pro-matrix bots, and the film seems pretty loving ok with killing anyone who doesn't agree with uh, eating strawberries in a sewer?
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Dec 30, 2021 20:06
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Yeah, I mean this is basically a neil breen movie. You don't watch his films trying to invent elaborate excuses at every step for how he isn't really murdering anyone. That he's murdering them is kind of the point???
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Dec 30, 2021 20:08
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moths posted:The film goes out of its way to show us that a bot can be "one of the good ones," and the only difference between a sheeple NPC and a life to celebrate and protect seems to come down to whether they agree with the protagonists. Basically, the Matrix is the US, and Io is the DPRK.
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Dec 30, 2021 20:12
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I think you can circumvent some of this just by deciding to love the 'NPC's. I found Jude charming personally, it made me sad that he disappeared after facetiming Neo. A lot of his lines feel weirdly potent too, like the joke about calling Are You Alone a sexy question feels aimed at all the individuals in the movie who are dyads of some kind or other. I half wonder if he got sublimated into Bugs, since the bible verse on her ship's refers to Judas... and I half-half wonder if the bullet train sequence is a dumb pun on bullet time (one word)
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Dec 30, 2021 20:12
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I wish the DPRK had mech parades.
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Dec 30, 2021 20:17
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No Mods No Masters posted:So in this account is tiffany's husband a bot or something different? To me it strains plausibility that the father of your two kids could serve in that role but not qualify as a "real AI" I thought all of them were real AI/programs and that them being "bots" just means they have the extra script/whatever that lets the Analyst dumb them down so he can directly have basic control over a ton at once.
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Dec 30, 2021 20:24
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moths posted:I wish the DPRK had mech parades. 
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Dec 30, 2021 20:25
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No Mods No Masters posted:So in this account is tiffany's husband a bot or something different? To me it strains plausibility that the father of your two kids could serve in that role but not qualify as a "real AI" He isn't the father of two children. He and the children are artificial constructs. They don't have to be plausible because the Matrix reconfigured itself if things get too wrong. They only need the surface level of feeling human and if Trinity feels depressed or unhappy or like something is wrong that is a feature, not a bug.
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Dec 30, 2021 20:26
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