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I really loved the "Dad, you've been watching too much Fox News" energy in the Wenwu fight. The Wenwu fight was more impressive than the dragon fight, but I really like how the movie tied everything up at the end.
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Dec 30, 2021 22:57
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I like Shang-Chi quite a lot. Hell my biggest problem with the whole movie is bus-commentator-Cliff.
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Dec 30, 2021 23:25
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I feel like if the last five-to-ten pages can teach us anything, it's that we can just like or dislike things without writing hour-long explanations for each and every minutiae of why we like or dislike those things. ...Or do. Either way. God knows I love writing long things.
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Dec 30, 2021 23:49
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Nodosaur posted:You have that, though. Maybe not the hubris and selfishness that his original self showed, but this all happened because he tried to cheat the consequences of playing superhero. He played with the fundamental forces of the universe for college admissions, for Christ’s sake. Even if that’s to help someone, it’s still profoundly irresponsible. Then later on, Peter has to choose between saving a sick man from himself or his own revenge. That’s a selfish desire, and still because of a death he was responsible for. Maybe Spidey’s ORIGIN is about hubris and selfishness leading to tragedy, but the core of his story over the years after that is balancing his desire to be a person with a stable and successful life versus the sacrifices that come from being a superhero. It doesn’t have to match the start to invoke the general whole of the character’s theme over the years. See, I think this just fundamentally comes from us understanding the character differently. To me, almost everything in a Spider-Man story comes back to, basically, "I wanna go on a date with MJ but if I don't stop Doc Ock, someone else's Uncle Ben might die". There's often more layers to it, sure, but at the end of the day that's literally who Peter Parker is. He's a man who can't let himself be happy because the guilt he feels over one mistake he made by putting his happiness first haunts him.
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Dec 31, 2021 00:12
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I agree. That's my fundamental interpretation of the character, and I think the core to what makes him tick. NWH home doesn't quite do that, but I feel kindly towards it, because it at least tries to get to a similar place which is a massive improvement over the previous MCU Spider-Man films' policy of ignoring it altogether.
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Dec 31, 2021 00:32
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I'm completely in favor of Peter being driven by a stronger, even more gripping sense of responsibility than he's had before now, but I can understand Nodo's point when they say it doesn't have to be exactly, pitch-perfectly, piece-by-psychological-piece just like how his guilt-driven motivation has always been portrayed before. I really don't think this current MCU Peter is going to be lacking for trauma or guilt going forward, for instance. Right now at this exact moment in time, I think the thing I want most for MCU Peter is for him to stop letting people walk over him all the time. I want him to be the moral authority in the room, not someone else.
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Dec 31, 2021 00:44
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Gaz-L posted:See, I think this just fundamentally comes from us understanding the character differently. To me, almost everything in a Spider-Man story comes back to, basically, "I wanna go on a date with MJ but if I don't stop Doc Ock, someone else's Uncle Ben might die". There's often more layers to it, sure, but at the end of the day that's literally who Peter Parker is. He's a man who can't let himself be happy because the guilt he feels over one mistake he made by putting his happiness first haunts him. I just can’t see him that way, and it’s part of why I dislike the deification and overuse of Ben in Peter’s problems. Peter isn’t Batman; he can grow beyond this one tragedy and be shaped by other difficulties like the death of Gwen or Harry. Ben is important but I don’t agree with having him hang over every aspect of Peter’s life.
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Dec 31, 2021 01:34
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Nodosaur posted:I just can’t see him that way, and it’s part of why I dislike the deification and overuse of Ben in Peter’s problems. Peter isn’t Batman; he can grow beyond this one tragedy and be shaped by other difficulties like the death of Gwen or Harry. Ben is important but I don’t agree with having him hang over every aspect of Peter’s life. See, Gwen's death is the same thing, though. It's why the 'um actually, she was dead already when Norman dropped her' explanation is weaker. Her death hangs on him because he put her at risk AND he hosed up when trying to fix things.
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Dec 31, 2021 01:37
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Gaz-L posted:See, Gwen's death is the same thing, though. It's why the 'um actually, she was dead already when Norman dropped her' explanation is weaker. Her death hangs on him because he put her at risk AND he hosed up when trying to fix things. I’m not talking about the similarity. I’m talking about the fact that she and Harry can loom just as much over his psyche as Uncle Ben. Sure, they’re alike, I agree. But the point to me is that it’s separate.
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Dec 31, 2021 02:00
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Nodosaur posted:I just can’t see him that way, and it’s part of why I dislike the deification and overuse of Ben in Peter’s problems. Peter isn’t Batman; he can grow beyond this one tragedy and be shaped by other difficulties like the death of Gwen or Harry. Ben is important but I don’t agree with having him hang over every aspect of Peter’s life. You're not wrong but giving her death the "Great power, great responsibility" line kind of implicitly suggests it's a similar situation to Uncle Ben (if not taking its place entirely) where Peter's inaction/selfishness causes a tragedy. In NWH Peter is never not responsible. Like, sure, he causes the whole plot to happen because he hosed up Strange's spell, but when he finds out what's happened he never shirks any responsibility. He catches the villains with surprising haste and then sets out to help them right after May tells him to. Peter gets Ben killed in most other versions*, but in NWH Norman gets May killed (arguably May gets May killed because she's the one that argued Peter into helping them instead of sending them home, and even then come on lady don't be hanging out with 5 supervillains even if they seem to be calm at the moment) and it's more or less treated the same. To invoke your Batman comparison, Batman's origin is random tragedy, while Spider-Man's is preventable tragedy, and the only way May's death could be prevented was for the spell not to have hosed up (which again, is Peter's fault but it's also a real stupid plot device with a bunch of problems/plot holes surrounding it so I'd rather not assign too much blame to it) and then the movie doesn't happen. *except in the Amazing series where Ben is definitely responsible for his own death because he tried to chase down an armed petty thief on his own what a loving idiot. Peter shouldn't feel bad for that one at all. Arist posted:I was mostly fine with the Shang-Chi climax but I really wish the Ten Rings had been like, destroyed or something. Don't like that he just has them now and isn't just a martial arts guy. Yeah but he needs something big and flashy for the next Avengers-like CGI spectacle and even Black Widow had the Widow bite thing to make her distinct from being just a hand to hand fighter. (I mean, I do not believe he does, but I feel like that's probably the studio's reasoning) TwoPair fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Dec 31, 2021 |
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Dec 31, 2021 02:31
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It was a pretty big year for the Dweller in Darkness, showing up both as the final threat in Shang Chi and also being the first real boss fight in the Marvel Guardians of the Galaxy game
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Dec 31, 2021 02:36
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TwoPair posted:You're not wrong but giving her death the "Great power, great responsibility" line kind of implicitly suggests it's a similar situation to Uncle Ben (if not taking its place entirely) where Peter's inaction/selfishness causes a tragedy. In NWH Peter is never not responsible. Like, sure, he causes the whole plot to happen because he hosed up Strange's spell, but when he finds out what's happened he never shirks any responsibility. He catches the villains with surprising haste and then sets out to help them right after May tells him to. Peter gets Ben killed in most other versions*, but in NWH Norman gets May killed (arguably May gets May killed because she's the one that argued Peter into helping them instead of sending them home, and even then come on lady don't be hanging out with 5 supervillains even if they seem to be calm at the moment) and it's more or less treated the same. To invoke your Batman comparison, Batman's origin is random tragedy, while Spider-Man's is preventable tragedy, and the only way May's death could be prevented was for the spell not to have hosed up (which again, is Peter's fault but it's also a real stupid plot device with a bunch of problems/plot holes surrounding it so I'd rather not assign too much blame to it) and then the movie doesn't happen. May’s death was absolutely preventable. It depends on Peter not being shortsighted and resorting to magical means to fix his problems. Maybe that’s not irresponsibility but it’s a personal failing all the same. So is wanting to murder Norman for the Goblin’s crimes. And again, I don’t think things have to line up 1:1 for them to work. And I really hate the idea that Gwen’s death was due to selfishness or inaction; the lesson then, would be that Peter shouldn’t pursue a life or relationships AT ALL. That’s a terrible lesson to impart.
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Dec 31, 2021 03:11
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I kind of like how they did it, it's sort of a cross between the traditional Uncle Ben situation and the SpiderVerse "always get back up thing" May doesn't die because Peter doesn't do the responsible thing, he wants to quit doing the responsible thing to keep her out of danger and she tells him to knock that train of thought off and keep doing what's right even if it's hard and even if it's dangerous. She doesn't want him to use her death as an excuse to quit or to kill, that's not great responsibility
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Dec 31, 2021 03:18
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Nodosaur posted:
Sure is cool how NWH says exactly that. If I'm honest, even setting aside everything here, that pissed me off because they set up the whole thing of 'consult us first before doing poo poo that involves us' in the first act... and then... it's never paid off? Like, they just have him make the decision without them again? No Way Home is the rare case where I think the more I think about it, the less I like it. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Dec 31, 2021 |
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Dec 31, 2021 03:22
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This is one part of the story that they have stated they intend to continue. Peter is fresh off trauma and figuring out how to put his life back together. I’m confident that as his story continues he’ll find his place with people who love him again.
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Dec 31, 2021 03:33
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Yeah I don't think the end moral of this all is going to be "Peter was right to disregard his friends' agencies." Even if it is, I'd argue it's a trope that even the comics have dabbled in. If we're talking about his sense of responsibility, then hasn't the comics Peter, in fact, often gone ahead and made some hard choices on his own, taking on burdens that he could have otherwise shared, due to how much he's constantly driven by his guilt and sense of responsibility? NWH Peter choosing to distance himself from his friends, even against their wishes, feels exactly like the sort of thing that comics Peter would do, martyring himself from a sense of guilt, because people getting hurt because of him is exactly his worst nightmare.
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Dec 31, 2021 03:42
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Gaz-L posted:Sure is cool how NWH says exactly that. Because that’s a nothing joke line. She is telling him his ideas are dumb, not mad about him trying.
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Dec 31, 2021 03:44
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I genuinely think Spider-Man's origin is the very best in superhero comics. It's simple, has a fable like quality, is powerful and profound - as well as an important message to a young readership. I love how it was the very first Spider-Man story (unlike Batman whose origin was divulged a few issues in), so for a brief period it was THE Spider-Man story. Even if Amazing Fantasy #15 had failed, that story still holds up as a singular powerful work. I know others disagree, but to me the motivation that origin imparts is the single most important part to the character, more important than the quips, webs, acrobatics, supporting cast, all of it. It is the very soul of the character. Which is why I find it bizarre that despite it almost being a meme that Spider-Man has a lot of origin stories on film, it has only been done well, and in a way that respects the thematic intent, once. Which is in the 2002 film. The decision to remove that motivation from Spider-Man was, I feel, disastrous to the MCU Spider-Man, leaving that character feeling comparitevely shallow, unmoored and lacking a strong philosophical perspective.] NWH does a decent job of correcting it though. It is the most positive I've felt about that version of the character since Civil War. May's death is still not a great replacement for Ben's death, as cited above the causal links of responsibility are muddy, but she sure as poo poo is better than Stark
Karloff fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Dec 31, 2021 |
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Dec 31, 2021 04:03
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Aphrodite posted:Because that’s a nothing joke line. She is telling him his ideas are dumb, not mad about him trying. Then it's badly communicated because it didn't read as a joke to me at all.
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Dec 31, 2021 04:03
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BrianWilly posted:Yeah I don't think the end moral of this all is going to be "Peter was right to disregard his friends' agencies." Re: spoilered thoughts- I'm not sure if the avoiding the re-introduction is him necessarily choosing to distance himself, or if he felt like he was coming on too strong and was going to go about it another way. I'm sure it's left deliberately open-ended in the event that they can't get some of these actors back for a Part 4.
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Dec 31, 2021 04:14
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I mean the Raimi trilogy makes a big thematic change to the origin by having Peter let the robber go out of revenge for being cheated instead of it being “not his problem” like in the comics. I feel that has a place in this discussion. (Not to mention them deciding later it was actually someone else.)
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Dec 31, 2021 05:03
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The Sandman stuff in 3 was a bad move, even if they try walk it back by having the robber nudge Marko, implying that Peter stopping him would still have saved Ben. They should have contrived another reason for Spider-Man to want revenge on Sandman. As for Peter not stopping the burglar out of revenge, I don't think it changes the thematic intent. In the original story it is implied Peter's decision to not help is in part because he's fed up of being pushed around by others and therefore feels justified in "looking out for number one". Making the wrestling promoter one of those people who pushed Peter around just emphasises that idea. The other notable change is that the burglar is killed in Raimi's version as opposed to sent to jail. But again I think this adds another layer of guilt to the proceedings without taking anything away from the core thematic idea. It's possible to make minor tweaks to an origin but maintain the core. An example of another film that does this well is Batman Begins. In that film the only reason the Wayne's were in the alley were because Bruce was scared of bat like creatures in the opera they were watching. This adds an interesting wrinkle to the origin, implying that Bruce associates his fear of bats with guilt over his parent's death, but doesn't undermine the core idea. Karloff fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Dec 31, 2021 |
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Dec 31, 2021 05:17
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It changes things quite a bit. It’s no longer due to Peter’s selfishness, it’s due to something the audience can more effectively sympathize with. That’s a significant change in my book. Keep on mind I’m not even saying it’s bad.
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Dec 31, 2021 15:08
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But it does not change the core idea. Which is that Peter had the chance to do the right thing, but didn't do it, willfully ignoring that people could be hurt by his inaction. He then learns this painfully directly when someone he cares for is killed as a result of that decision. So he blames himself. This is the same whether or not there was a sympathetic justification for him ignoring the criminal. The wrestling promotor may well have deserved to lose his money. But this doesn't change the fact the burglar was still dangerous, still capable of violence, and should have been stopped. Making Peter's unwillingness to help sympathetic doesn't so much change the idea, but clarify and solidify it. By making Peter's actions sympathetic it allows the audience to put themselves in his head space and question if they would do the same. Most people think of themselves as good or righteous, so when they do something cruel, callous or selfish they justify it to themselves. As Peter does here. Both the original story and Raimi's gave Peter a feeling of righteous self-justification, just the film chooses to make it more direct. The actual thematic idea though remains completely the same.
Karloff fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Dec 31, 2021 |
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Dec 31, 2021 16:45
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Didnt pete say “i know” when may said the responsibility thing? My read of it is that may is repeating this important lesson that pete learned from ben, because she saw he was losing sight of his original philosophy amid all the chaos I was always under the impression that the uncle ben origin absolutely happened to peter in the mcu, they just kept it off screen because we’ve seen it a hundred times before already? I was never under the impression that what happened to may somehow replaced the uncle ben origin, and its kind of confusing that everybody is under this impression. To me, may is repeating MCU ben’s original advice and that is pretty clear based on how pete responds? Like theyve even mentioned MCU ben in the past and the impression ive always gotten is pete feels guilt about his death but they just didnt want to do what theyve done with batman and show it for the trillionth time because this origin is something literally everybody knows already I guess im totally off base and read into it too much.
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Dec 31, 2021 17:00
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The thing is they haven't mentioned Ben, they've just implied in very vague terms.
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Dec 31, 2021 17:24
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He hasn't really been implied in the movies. Like if you didn't know of his existence from other works, there's nothing from the MCU movies to tell you Peter had an uncle, let alone one named Ben who was married to May but died somewhat recently. He was weirdly brought up in the zombie episode of What If...? of all places. Also, in this latest movie, it seems a bit odd if he did exist that Holland didn't have a reaction to hearing of Uncle Ben's death from the other Spider-Men, and that May was buried alone.
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Dec 31, 2021 17:46
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Andrew Garfield didn't have a reaction either, to be fair.
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Dec 31, 2021 18:45
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Nodosaur posted:Andrew Garfield didn't have a reaction either, to be fair. Yeah, it's not any one thing by itself but there is a pattern.
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Dec 31, 2021 20:12
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I guess we won't know for sure until "Freshman Year".
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Dec 31, 2021 20:13
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Nodosaur posted:I guess we won't know for sure until "Freshman Year". I wouldn't be surprised if they were featured in Freshman Year. The less he was mentioned explicitly as each MCU Spidey appearance happened, the less it made sense to bring him up later. They missed the window, like asking a coworker for their name again after meeting with them several times. But FY is a separate project, and given it's a prequel, I expect it to actually overexplain things.
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Dec 31, 2021 20:36
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In the MCU, Uncle Ben is gonna turn out to be Benjamin Grimm
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Jan 1, 2022 04:52
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Argue posted:In the MCU, Uncle Ben is gonna turn out to be Benjamin Grimm Peter turned to fighting crime after the Yancey Street punk he didn't stop made his Uncle Ben step into a flaming bag of dog poo poo
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Jan 1, 2022 21:22
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Argue posted:In the MCU, Uncle Ben is gonna turn out to be Benjamin Grimm if only he stopped Reed Richards when he had the chance
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Jan 1, 2022 21:30
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I just realized that No Way Home is clearly setting up for One More Day. Anyway I just watched Shang Chi and it was really loving good. It felt very different from other Marvel movies, probably due to there being so much disconnect from the other movies, and also being a loving wuxia film. Tony Leung was great and everyone who doubted having a "real" Mandarin in the MCU was clearly wrong, but I'm not knocking them for it because what a great thing to be wrong about. My big complaint is that they did some cool stuff with the idea of the character and his motivations, so of course, I would have wanted to see the character stick around longer. I think there would be a lot more to draw from that well.
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Jan 2, 2022 03:59
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He wasn't the Mandarin though. He even said so!
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Jan 2, 2022 05:05
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Jamesman posted:I just realized that No Way Home is clearly setting up for One More Day. NWH borrows a lot of elements of OMD already, so I doubt they would do that. They seem to be setting up a blank slate to do something more disconnected from the last three films which is good.
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Jan 2, 2022 06:37
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I think the important thing is that they so perfectly and clearly set up Ned as Hobgoblin 
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Jan 2, 2022 06:48
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FlamingLiberal posted:I really hope not Yeah. I don't get how this movie seems to be setting up OMD unless the idea is that Mephisto will offer Pete his relationship with MJ back? Anyway, if NWH was OMD then maybe that bodes well for the next movies because the era immediately after OMD was a good run of comics.
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Jan 2, 2022 07:33
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Blockhouse posted:And hunting down every Joe Fuckoff making t-shirts in his garage isn't a viable way to do anything. What does Disney - or anyone for that matter - accomplish by sending C&Ds out to 500,000 people on Etsy? My ex girlfriend got a C&D from Disney for making crochet baby yodas and so did a ton of other Etsy sellers.
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