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drat so it sounds like the 12700k is exactly what I want. I wish I lived even remotely near a microcenter but I don't 
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Dec 15, 2021 09:46
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gradenko_2000 posted:11th gen landed with a wet fart (except maybe for the low-end) because it was a bad series, but 12th gen is a real step-up DDR4/5. I recall that Intel pushed for reviews to be DDR5 but the performance gain isn't there, it's expensive and impossible to get. Even if DDR4 performance is good, I think a lot of people will either decide to wait for the DDR5 situation to improve before they upgrade or they won't read reviews and think "I don't want DDR5, Ryzen it is". e-cores - The best windows optimizations are only in Win11. There has been part of me tempted to upgrade my Windows machine from an 1700 to a 12700K but gently caress if I'm touching Win11 any time before I really have to (so Oct 2025...) Power. Letting the 12900K be a toaster in certain cases has hurt. It might have let Intel maximise the number of benchmark wins but gave a wider perception that the whole system has high power conception and runs hot. The chips are good enough Intel didn't need to the gently caress-you thing of embargoing reviews until release day. They should have let the 12600k and 12700k out first, get some efficiency mindshare, then let the 12900k 'max power' reviews out a day or so later. The lack of more affordable motherboard options. I'm sure there must be a reasonable amount of "I'll wait until the cheaper motherboards are released in the new year" demand pent up.
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Dec 15, 2021 11:29
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Pablo Bluth posted:There have been rumours sales have been under expectations and Ryzen sales have held up. Zen 3 is outselling Alder Lake at Amazon, Newegg, and Micro Center according to their best sellers rankings. Alder Lake is winning at B&H Photo, which may not be surprising at a shop oriented more towards professionals. The 10400 and 10100F are the best-selling Intel CPUs at Amazon right now, followed by the 10700K. The best selling Intel CPU at Newegg is the 11700K followed by the 12900K. It's peculiar seeing the 12900K being the top selling alder lake part, and I'm not sure I trust that. The best selling intel CPU at Micro Center is again the 11700K followed by the 12700K, which is more believable. So yeah, when people are buying 10th and 11th-gen i7s before Alder Lake, there's a problem. I think you're right about the reasons why (DDR5 availability, power hungry CPUs, price, e-cores are strange and foreign), though it's surprising that it's so bad that people are opting to get older intel CPUs instead.
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Dec 15, 2021 11:50
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i think it's partially the AM4 socket which legit has radically influenced my own and a bunch of other people's upgrade behaviour, forget the comparative cost of motherboards because if intel wanted to sell to me over a 5600x the motherboard would need to be free. it keeps people in the platform and encourages upgrades without a full system rebuild. it's hard to quantify that advantage from performance data. i also suspect that the pandemic forced an absolute ton of hardware upgrades that normally would have been distributed over a few years in the typical 3-5 year upgrade cycle and that plays into the above; way more people upgraded in 2020 that normally would have from idk 2020-2024. the demand for GPUs is already hosed for any number of reasons but people don't typically upgrade their CPUs anywhere near as frequently and way more people than typical just did. if you bought an AM4 socket device maybe hitting CPU bottlenecks incentivizes an upgrade, if you bought a 10th or 11th gen CPU there's no way you're in the market even if there's lots of performance gains available.
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Dec 15, 2021 13:20
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That was an absolutely fantastic marketing coup by AMD. The whole AM4 thing was pretty much a scam, but somehow it counts in AMD's favor. There are mostly only two kinds of AM4 upgrades : buying a marginal CPU upgrade and paying way too much for the performance you gain, or buying a more significant CPU upgrade and needing a new motherboard anyway. I will grant that the half-steps often allowed people building a system from scratch to get one generation old motherboards for low-midrange CPUs and save some money there, but the upgrade proposition was always ridiculous.
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Dec 15, 2021 13:44
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K8.0 posted:That was an absolutely fantastic marketing coup by AMD. The whole AM4 thing was pretty much a scam, but somehow it counts in AMD's favor. There are mostly only two kinds of AM4 upgrades : buying a marginal CPU upgrade and paying way too much for the performance you gain, or buying a more significant CPU upgrade and needing a new motherboard anyway. I will grant that the half-steps often allowed people building a system from scratch to get one generation old motherboards for low-midrange CPUs and save some money there, but the upgrade proposition was always ridiculous. Eh, you could have bought a mid-range Zen+ with a b450 board back in the day, and now update and install Zen 3, significant upgrade
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Dec 15, 2021 13:53
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HalloKitty posted:Eh, you could have bought a mid-range Zen+ with a b450 board back in the day, and now update and install Zen 3, significant upgrade You could even do it with at least one A320 board too - the Gigabyte A320M-H has an official BIOS with Zen 3 support.
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Dec 15, 2021 14:02
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It really depends: going from an R5 1600 to an R5 3600 is certainly nice, but AFAIK it was really only the B450 that has the broad spectrum compatibility - if you got a B350 or X370 then you would have been left high-and-dry on Zen 3, and if you started with B450/B550/X570 then you already bought in mid-way through Ryzen's lifecycle. It's still a drat sight better than Intel only ever supporting two gens at a time, but AM4 isn't quite as far-reaching as the on-paper compatibility might suggest
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Dec 15, 2021 14:04
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gradenko_2000 posted:It really depends: going from an R5 1600 to an R5 3600 is certainly nice, but AFAIK it was really only the B450 that has the broad spectrum compatibility - if you got a B350 or X370 then you would have been left high-and-dry on Zen 3, and if you started with B450/B550/X570 then you already bought in mid-way through Ryzen's lifecycle. Some x370 boards (and probably some others) got cheeky updates allowing Zen 3, but not officially
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Dec 15, 2021 14:13
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gradenko_2000 posted:It really depends: going from an R5 1600 to an R5 3600 is certainly nice, but AFAIK it was really only the B450 that has the broad spectrum compatibility - if you got a B350 or X370 then you would have been left high-and-dry on Zen 3, and if you started with B450/B550/X570 then you already bought in mid-way through Ryzen's lifecycle. AMD did try to say it won't be supported but they received so much backlash that they quickly walked it back. Certain motherboard vendors, Asus in particular and possibly MSI, didn't want to support newer CPUs on older motherboards. Khorne fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Dec 15, 2021 |
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Dec 15, 2021 15:29
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any idea if my "MSI B350M PRO-VD PLUS" is eligible for Zen 3? how would I check which is the appropriate AGESA?
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Dec 15, 2021 15:34
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gradenko_2000 posted:any idea if my "MSI B350M PRO-VD PLUS" is eligible for Zen 3? how would I check which is the appropriate AGESA? The bios page for that motherboard is confusing. It has received updates but it's unclear what AGESA it is currently using. It updated to 1.0.0.6 very late. It should support zen2 but probably not zen3. I haven't seen many/any reports of cross flashing with MSI b350 boards. Khorne fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Dec 15, 2021 |
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Dec 15, 2021 15:40
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i can speak to my experience: mine was a lockdown build as i suspect a huge amount of people went with, i went 3300x b450 to a 3600 i found cheap secondhand. the 3100 and 3300x flew off the shelves to people like me, as did the 3600. as did an absolute ton of APU style chips, like the 3200G something like that super popular with people who couldn't find any GPU given that poo poo has been a problem for god it feels like a million years but most of that time. any of those have an at least hypothetical path to a different chip if they want more performance in some specific application and they were all very popular. maybe you finally buy your GPU and want to switch out to something more powerful, a 5600x might make sense for you. maybe you're ill informed and wanna upgrade and have can't-spend-it gpu money burning a hole through your pocket, something i would politely and with no judgement sometimes observe in the PC building thread.
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Dec 15, 2021 15:46
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like, it is marketing in that i suspect very strongly the overwhelming majority of AM4 sockets never receive any upgrade, which is true i'd wager for any socket ever, but in terms of enthusiasts instead of people buying prebuilds it's good marketing. the idea that you can expand your machine is kind of part of the fun, particularly for my first build and i think consumers respond to that, i did. i'd love to see it more broadly applied following market pressure but i don't know if that's a reasonable technical expectation, i don't really understand why it's the dominant paradigm to begin with or why intel prefers that market strategy.
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Dec 15, 2021 15:53
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gradenko_2000 posted:any idea if my "MSI B350M PRO-VD PLUS" is eligible for Zen 3? how would I check which is the appropriate AGESA? this thread has more information. MSI is the worst vendor for AM4 bios updates on older boards. Khorne fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Dec 15, 2021 |
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Dec 15, 2021 16:07
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I'm beginning to consider the 12600K. Is there a way to make sure the item's in stock? MC is an hour away from where I live. I'd rather not make the trip only to return empty handed As far as I can tell they don't have a store phone number.
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Dec 15, 2021 16:53
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What cooler are ya’ll putting on the 126/12700K? I’m probably going to move my 8700K to UnRAID duty (finally putting my 2500K out to pasture) and keeping the noctua on the 8700. Might get another dh-15s but wondering if there are other good alternatives.
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Dec 15, 2021 17:25
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K8.0 posted:That was an absolutely fantastic marketing coup by AMD. The whole AM4 thing was pretty much a scam, but somehow it counts in AMD's favor. There are mostly only two kinds of AM4 upgrades : buying a marginal CPU upgrade and paying way too much for the performance you gain, or buying a more significant CPU upgrade and needing a new motherboard anyway. I will grant that the half-steps often allowed people building a system from scratch to get one generation old motherboards for low-midrange CPUs and save some money there, but the upgrade proposition was always ridiculous. It seems significant that increasing hardware compatibility helps contribute to a long lifetime for used/refurbished parts, even if most people would never upgrade their CPU and many don't think about reusing old computers' parts. Personally I bought a nicer X470 board when a basic B450 would have been fine in part because I expect to get a longer life out of the system with a CPU upgrade. The 3700X I got with it is still great for now, but whenever I need more I can make a great home server with a 5900X or 5950X even if I'd like a newer platform for gaming. e: CoolCab posted:like, it is marketing in that i suspect very strongly the overwhelming majority of AM4 sockets never receive any upgrade, which is true i'd wager for any socket ever, but in terms of enthusiasts instead of people buying prebuilds it's good marketing. the idea that you can expand your machine is kind of part of the fun, particularly for my first build and i think consumers respond to that, i did. I think part of it is that the motherboard partners' cooperation is needed to push out updates to motherboards and build them up to "good enough for next gen" specs to begin with, and the board partners would rather sell just new generations of boards than have to write more EFI updates and compete with their own unsold and used last-gen stock. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Dec 15, 2021 |
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Dec 15, 2021 21:18
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Khorne posted:AMD has only actively blocked zen3 from x370 so far. They C&D'd ASROCK who released zen3 support through forums. AGESA 1.2.x.x has zen3 support. MSI's b350/b450 boards used almost every byte of their bios's flash chips out of the box so there wasn't really any room for additional look up tables and whatever else it is thats needed for newer CPUs. It really seemed like some excessive bom shaving that was them shooting themselves in the foot, but that original tomahawk b450 was so drat cheap they sold like hotcakes.
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Dec 15, 2021 21:31
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Cygni posted:I will be proudly not memorizing the math on these ever in my life. How much is 4x48 sticks? No idea. Will never know. Use a calculator. pssssshh https://www.anandtech.com/show/16900/samsung-teases-512-gb-ddr5-7200-modules
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Dec 15, 2021 22:18
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ConanTheLibrarian posted:pssssshh https://www.anandtech.com/show/16900/samsung-teases-512-gb-ddr5-7200-modules
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Dec 16, 2021 05:09
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Rinkles posted:I'm beginning to consider the 12600K. Is there a way to make sure the item's in stock? MC is an hour away from where I live. I'd rather not make the trip only to return empty handed If it says "limited availability" they have *some* in stock or it'd be labeled as OOS. The stores *used* to have freely available phone numbers until people started calling about GPUs and trying to coerce and outright threaten employees about reserving high-demand products.
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Dec 16, 2021 05:59
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Why do the new 12th P+E CPUs downclock the cache/ring so aggressively when E cores are utilized? From what I've been reading, most people seem to be able to get their rings to 4.1~4.3ghz pretty easily in all-core loads. Steve from HUB suspects in their latest video that this is why some games benefit from e-core disabling, because the cache clocking down is increasing l3 latency. <-- I don't know what that means, but why is it not better to get all core 4.1~4.3ghz ring clock in every circumstance, versus 4.5ghz p-core only (when is that going to happen with the scheduler putting background apps onto the e-cores?) and then 3.6ghz when e-cores are used?
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Dec 23, 2021 02:28
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The 'L3 latency' part? That means the access time to the L3 cache, which is kind of distributed across all cores. If data cannot be found in L1/L2 cache, the core needs to communicate through the mesh/ring network, so a slower network means longer wait time for that cache response. Games don't nicely fit in the L2 cache, they're very dependent on L3 cache performance. As to why the mesh gets downclocked: beats me. I'm guessing that it's more the number of cores being involved than being P/E specifically. The lower stock mesh clock might be Intel playing safe for stability.
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Dec 23, 2021 10:15
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Have any favorites emerged out of the ddr4 Z690 boards? Might be selling off my 9700k mb/cpu and upgrading to a 12700k, but I've got good ddr4 ram and don't feel like shelling out the extra for ddr5 yet.
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Dec 24, 2021 19:38
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Enos Cabell posted:Have any favorites emerged out of the ddr4 Z690 boards? Might be selling off my 9700k mb/cpu and upgrading to a 12700k, but I've got good ddr4 ram and don't feel like shelling out the extra for ddr5 yet.
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Dec 24, 2021 21:01
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the lord and savior released a video on that last night: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEkDVlv1FFg The way I kinda see it at the moment is the MSI -A boards are the baseline. 14+1+1 VRM, Intel 2.5g lan, debug LEDs, 4 M.2, 6 layer pcb. The only knock against it for me is the audio is fine but not great with an AC897, but in reality I don't think anybody would notice. And I personally don't like MSI's bios that much, but i know a lot of other people do so!
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Dec 24, 2021 21:34
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Great timing on my part! I was already leaning MSI since that's what I'm currently using and it's been solid. Still not sure if I want to make the move now, or wait until next generation when ddr5 is more mature. Only reason I'm really considering it now is that I'm building a new PC for my cousin, and the 9700k would be good for what he needs.
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Dec 24, 2021 21:38
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The Gigabyte Gaming X is also worth considering now that Gigabyte has fixed their bios, or so I've heard.
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Dec 24, 2021 22:34
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:The Gigabyte Gaming X is also worth considering now that Gigabyte has fixed their bios, or so I've heard. My mate has a Z690 Aorus Pro DDR4, probably the best expensive ddr4 board because it has a 7-seg post code, and the latest BIOS was a revolution. He couldn't oc much at all, and his memory wouldn't work at XMP 5200 C36 and as of BIOS 7a he is running 5.1 all core at 1.24v and 5600 mem. Was a mess at launch really
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Dec 25, 2021 02:29
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Oh yeah check your LGA1700 kits from the cooler companies because Arctic sent me one that's got the wrong lengths so I have pretty poor contact (immediately thermal throttle on Cinebench and sit around 50-60 at 60-80 W cpu power with a liquid freezer 2 360 AIO Yeah the 12900k is a toaster but it shouldn't be immediately pegging 100 C at full load with that big a cooler, maybe upper 80s lower 90s sure
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Dec 25, 2021 04:18
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GN got their hands on a 12400 engineering sample, but I don't know how useful their data is. Max turbo frequency was 4GHz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB0DHG4WP0o They couldn't do proper game testing, and the CPU-only benchmarks were all very underwhelming (basically at 11400 levels). But there's no way that's representative of a retail 12400 (which Steve makes clear).
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Dec 27, 2021 01:42
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https://www.anandtech.com/show/17136/asus-demonstrates-ddr5-to-ddr4-converter-card has asus been poaching engineers from asrock?
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Dec 30, 2021 22:40
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Wow, that's worthless *and* looks like a fantastic way to heat-trap your CPU.
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Dec 30, 2021 22:49
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 lmao
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Dec 30, 2021 22:54
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Still kinda want it though
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Dec 30, 2021 22:59
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repiv posted:https://www.anandtech.com/show/17136/asus-demonstrates-ddr5-to-ddr4-converter-card ASRock would never design something so inelegant and wonky. They would have implemented it as an interposer/daughterboard/riser which attaches to the CPU socket on your existing motherboard, acting primarily as a PCI and power passthru. Daughterboard has a steel backplate and a system of standoff/buttresses supporting it, which attach to the case at the ITX layout mobo screw holes. CPU, cooler, and RAM socket into the daughterboard.
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Dec 31, 2021 01:04
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Almost guaranteed this was an inhouse developed board for system bringup and testing of boards prior to ddr5 wide availability and a marketing dude saw it and decided to productize it. 
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Dec 31, 2021 02:21
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priznat posted:Almost guaranteed this was an inhouse developed board for system bringup and testing of boards prior to ddr5 wide availability and a marketing dude saw it and decided to productize it. They could’ve also been asked for them more than a few times and just figured why not.
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Dec 31, 2021 02:29
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Anyone have a good basic 12600k overclock guide? Haven't had to overclock in a decade since zen PBO was mostly solid. I feel like I'm mostly just lost because I do NOT like this msi bios honestly Thinking bump the voltage limit up a bit (should i Offset 0.1 at a time, or just Override it to like 1.3 and step it down), set the P cores to 5.2-5.0 then lower the voltage until its no longer stable during stress tests. Xmp should be fine for memory and I don't really plan on bothering with ocing the E cores SSJ_naruto_2003 fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Dec 31, 2021 |
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Dec 31, 2021 06:09
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