(Thread IKs:
Nuns with Guns)
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the real world cost of video game elf racism. trying to ruin someone who poked fun at something you care too much about by playing the most tenuous game of 6 degrees of hitler possible. the amount of reaches you have to take to reach the conclusion that someone is real world racist against (minority pending) because of a throwaway comment about elves is insane lol
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Dec 31, 2021 20:57
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| # ? May 30, 2024 00:32 |
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Sydin posted:All because JA said the elves in a video game are annoying. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjHclWPVij0 Nuns with Guns posted:Oh no wait, it did do the innovative "Use Barbie Dolls for book art" stunt once I can't remember where I read it, but I believe the Barbie doll thing was done due to budgetary reasons. FAKE EDIT: From a quick search, here's a a post I found on r/HobbyDrama. quote:Visually the book was ugly as all get-out. The whole thing had a black, white and green pallet that was clearly intended to invoke an old-time monochrome CRT monitor. Instead it managed to make the book look bad and made the text hard to read in places. This was only enhanced by a terrible layout that made finding the rules or sections that a reader was after actively difficult.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:02
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And I have to bring this up but there is a difference between the elves of the continent and the elves of Tir Na Lia. The Aen Elle are reprehensible genocidal monsters who massacre entire planets for fun. The Aen Seidh of the Continent are colonists who have been separated from the Aen Elle for thousands of years and have differences to their warmongering cousins. They lost their war with humans and have splintered into three mindsets: coexistence, retaliation and removing themselves entirely. The Aen Seidh have done awful poo poo, particularly the squirrels terrorists, but they're in a much different situation and are more sympathetic than the homeland genocidal fuckmongers.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:03
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elves should stick to making shoes imo
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Dec 31, 2021 21:03
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Microcline posted:I like Joe as a critic but he probably should have just said "hey maybe I was wrong about this one" I actually would love to know what he should say he was wrong about because everything he said about elves in the fake video game and books of The Witcher is 100% supported by in universe canon, with even the most sympathetic and friendly elf having an undercurrent of 'well we ARE this world's natural rulers, yea, but you guys can be our pets and vassals and poo poo' vs the normal one of 'we're going to kill you for being lesser beings'.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:04
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All elves are assholes
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Dec 31, 2021 21:05
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But man, warhammer elves take the cake for being even bigger dicks than Witcher elves. But it's warhammer so everyone is equally hateful and amusing. Elves are great Britain and the Dark Elves are literally the perpetuators of the transatlantic slade trade in Warhammer while they live in frozen volcano North America.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:05
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Max Wilco posted:I can't remember where I read it, but I believe the Barbie doll thing was done due to budgetary reasons. Some of that, some of it was general internal turmoil in the company. I just like looking at it and laughing at those poor mangled dolls.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:07
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Arc Hammer posted:But man, warhammer elves take the cake for being even bigger dicks than Witcher elves. But it's warhammer so everyone is equally hateful and amusing. Elves are great Britain and the Dark Elves are literally the perpetuators of the transatlantic slade trade in Warhammer while they live in frozen volcano North America. yea in WH the 'chillest' elves are hardcore isolationists who murder anyone who steps into their forest, they only win because they're the only ones not actively doing imperialism (though big RIP to any rando towns that happen to be in forests the wood elves decide is 'theirs' by virtue of 'we own all the woods, bitch').
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Dec 31, 2021 21:08
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fun hater posted:lmfao that anyone should have to apologize for elves
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Dec 31, 2021 21:14
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Dias posted:Yeah, they called him out for his takes about the elves, which so far so good, and pulled this move trying to get the guy to donate to LGBTQ causes in Poland, which was a bit lovely in hindsight. Of course Joseph tried to defend himself and commented on their video, which is when I think Sophie was actually assholish: they got angry because they didn't want it to be a public argument (despite dedicating a good chunk of the video to calling Anderson out), called him out for THAT on Twitter and the dude got a lot of people pestering him on Twitter to the point he reduced his presence there significantly. It’s so strange how trans women become “they” whenever ppl disagree w then (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 31, 2021 21:19
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Microcline posted:I like Joe as a critic but he probably should have just said "hey maybe I was wrong about this one" Ehhhh. I think he didn't do himself any favors, certainly, with how he reacted to the whole thing. I think Joe mainly was feeling "everyone's calling me a racist but I'm not!" and going overboard in responding to everyone. Just that attitude of "if I explain my thoughts/position enough then eventually they'll all agree with me, so the fact that people still DON'T agree with me means that I need to keep going, and I can't rest until I've convinced everyone". But was he wrong? I feel like there could've been a more interesting conversation/debate/whatever about fantastical racism and death of the author, but all that went out the window when the main argument was people saying "just admit you're a racist, dude" and him refusing to do so. sexpig by night posted:I actually would love to know what he should say he was wrong about because everything he said about elves in the fake video game and books of The Witcher is 100% supported by in universe canon, with even the most sympathetic and friendly elf having an undercurrent of 'well we ARE this world's natural rulers, yea, but you guys can be our pets and vassals and poo poo' vs the normal one of 'we're going to kill you for being lesser beings'. To try and be fair to the other side here (again, half-remembering this from a loving YouTube comment section a year or whatever ago): the argument is that the Witcher is not real, it's the creation of a real-world author, so one must ask where the author got those sorts of ideas from. Even if the racism is "justified" or "correct" within the confines of the fictional universe this person constructed, it didn't have to be. The author could have easily NOT included this sort of detail in the story/world, or alternatively, they could've gone fully the other direction and be like "in my world, black people are literally evil". The whole "well, it's 100% supported in-universe" argument would apply just as well in that case, but I'm sure most people would see that and be like "yo that's mega-racist, my dude". Basically, one must ask the question: why did the author include this in their universe? What are they trying to say? What does this say about them, or the people who read this and enjoy it? I think some other points were made about how fictional races might be racially coded. Sorta like how the orcs in that Bright movie with Will Smith were pretty clearly coded as black/inner-city/urban. If someone was racist towards the orcs in that story, it makes sense to see it as an analogue of racism in our real world, and it'd be dumb for someone to be like "uhhhh orcs aren't real my dude, so there's no possible way this can mean anything about racism in the real world, you're just looking for things to get mad about".
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Dec 31, 2021 21:19
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endocriminologist posted:It’s so strange how trans women become “they” whenever ppl disagree w then drat you got them, dias was a secret transphobe the whole time and was only pretending to get the incredible information from this thread
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Dec 31, 2021 21:22
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endocriminologist posted:It’s so strange how trans women become “they” whenever ppl disagree w then Not sure if you're trying to imply anything untoward about Dias or anyone else here who used "they" to refer to Sophie, but at least for my part: I genuinely didn't know what their preferred pronouns were. I remember watching some of their videos from before they transitioned, and then during the transition, and I feel like at some point they definitely were more about they/them, but I could be wrong. When I posted earlier, I genuinely tried to look up their twitter and other platforms to see if they listed their pronouns but I didn't see those anywhere. I figured defaulting to "they", since I literally didn't know, would be safest  If they prefer "she" then I'll use that instead!
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Dec 31, 2021 21:23
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sexpig by night posted:yea in WH the 'chillest' elves are hardcore isolationists who murder anyone who steps into their forest, they only win because they're the only ones not actively doing imperialism (though big RIP to any rando towns that happen to be in forests the wood elves decide is 'theirs' by virtue of 'we own all the woods, bitch'). There's also a small minority of elves who live in the Empire's borders that are surprisingly chill for how often Imperial armies tried to conquer them in the past. Far nicer than their fae-larping friends in Athel Loren at any rate. Even have a "temporary" presence at the Capitol for actual peaceful diplomacy.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:25
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Shnakepup posted:Ehhhh. I think he didn't do himself any favors, certainly, with how he reacted to the whole thing. I think Joe mainly was feeling "everyone's calling me a racist but I'm not!" and going overboard in responding to everyone. Just that attitude of "if I explain my thoughts/position enough then eventually they'll all agree with me, so the fact that people still DON'T agree with me means that I need to keep going, and I can't rest until I've convinced everyone". yea but it's not like the real issues like this are in any way subtle. We're talking poo poo like 'in my world all orcs are brutal, stupid, savages suited only for war and constantly raping and defiling the civilized races, also I put them in tribal clothes with dreadlocks' and going 'uh it's just an orc how can you say this is weird????' when called on it. What...stereotypes are Witcher's Elves hitting? She never even really said what she felt they were a stand in for it sounds like, it literally sounds like she's saying he was being racist against the actual elves more than anything.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:27
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Acute Grill posted:There's also a small minority of elves who live in the Empire's borders that are surprisingly chill for how often Imperial armies tried to conquer them in the past. Far nicer than their fae-larping friends in Athel Loren at any rate. Even have a "temporary" presence at the Capitol for actual peaceful diplomacy. yea Warhammer's fantasy side has been pretty alright about showing that past the large scale 'empire's heart' of the assorted races there's also plenty of just rando people on the fringes just trying to survive. Didn't they also have a settlement in an RPG book that was surface dwarves and elves outside their homelands that were just kinda 'yea sounds like our leaders are both being idiots huh' on the topic of racial relations?
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Dec 31, 2021 21:30
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endocriminologist posted:It’s so strange how trans women become “they” whenever ppl disagree w then I thought Sophie still went by she/they pronouns, also go gently caress yourself.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:30
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sexpig by night posted:What...stereotypes are Witcher's Elves hitting? She never even really said what she felt they were a stand in for it sounds like, it literally sounds like she's saying he was being racist against the actual elves more than anything.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:32
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I don't think JA's a great critic but lol if he actually got called out for basically just saying that witcher elves are laid on a bit thick and that colors his read. those quotes lean a bit too much towards thinking in terms of lore vs critiquing authored fiction but that's just me not being much into his writing again
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Dec 31, 2021 21:35
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sexpig by night posted:What...stereotypes are Witcher's Elves hitting? She never even really said what she felt they were a stand in for it sounds like, it literally sounds like she's saying he was being racist against the actual elves more than anything. I would need to re-watch the video to find out. Here's the links in case anyone else wants to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtrAx-rVgco Joe's original video...no clue what the timestamp would be for when he says the whole "Witcher made me racist against elves" thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jlvlI05cOU Sophie's video on the topic (note: it's not exclusively about him) Here's a tweet I found from Sophie that goes into more detail. Probably better articulated in the YT video but here's the gist: https://twitter.com/sophie_frm_mars/status/1293359578143428610?s=20
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Dec 31, 2021 21:36
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Terrible Opinions posted:Elves are Europeans. Or indigenous people?? https://twitter.com/sophie_frm_mars/status/1293362452751618052?s=20
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Dec 31, 2021 21:37
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Terrible Opinions posted:Elves are Europeans. yea I mean it's just Tolkien poo poo really, which of all of Tolkien's 'inspirations' the Elves were easily his most positive (not counting the Hobbits who he openly admitted were the objectively right people) and vague because they were the stand in for the general 'old Europe', a dying empire who's time has passed but still cling to their pride. Just in Witcher that manifests as open hate and war rather than Tolkien's tragic nobility. Neither are really hurtful stereotypes, though, unless she's worried Queen Elizabeth will read that and be offended?
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Dec 31, 2021 21:39
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Shnakepup posted:I would need to re-watch the video to find out. Here's the links in case anyone else wants to: https://twitter.com/sophie_frm_mars/status/1293362454009982978 I'm not watching any of this poo poo
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Dec 31, 2021 21:41
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The hobbits just wanna smoke weed, eat and chill in their tiny houses being cute tiny people, I strongly identify with that lifestyle.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:41
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Shnakepup posted:Or indigenous people?? I guess she missed the part where the Aen Seidh elves are Aen Elle colonists who are not native to the planet and arrived after Gnomes and Dwarfs had already settled the place. And even they aren't the original inhabitants, considering there's also the Cthulhu sea peoples and the lizardmen who lived in the mountains. Nobody is native to the continent as far as The Witcher is concerned. They're all waves of interdiemsional colonists crashing onto this one planet and murdering the previous inhabitants.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:44
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also the elves who came 'at the eleventh hour' aren't even the main do-ers of genocide in Witcher, it's the 'native' ones (who are about as 'native' as any other mortal race) that are murdering rando farmers and kids! loving read the books if you're going to be this lovely and reactionary about them!Dias posted:The hobbits just wanna smoke weed, eat and chill in their tiny houses being cute tiny people, I strongly identify with that lifestyle. Yea Tolkien wrote them 100% to encapsulate his 'lost ideal english countryside' life, in his ideal world we'd all be fat lil dudes and ladies smoking weed and eating potatoes while debating who raised the best pig or whatever outside our little house, team Shire all the way.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:44
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endocriminologist posted:It’s so strange how trans women become “they” whenever ppl disagree w then what in the world
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Dec 31, 2021 21:48
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So having not even known any of this had happened until now and trying to piece together the story via a weird game of posting telephone, it appears the fundamental disconnect is that Sophie approaches the elves in Witcher from the perspective of how they're coded and the real world implications of that and how the story treats them. Which obviously makes sense given her style of media analysis! Joseph however just... doesn't do that, at all. He's a weirdly literal critic who hyper-fixates only on what he's critiquing and occasionally what he views as comparable works. When he says the elves in Witcher cannot co-exist with humans on a fundamental level and just need to pack up and leave, he's only talking within the text of Witcher itself and how elves/humans are there, not what the real world implications are of saying a marginalized and oppressed group just needs to gently caress off. It doesn't look like Sophie came from a place of malice when she called out Joe or anything, I think she just doesn't understand what kind of critic he is and read way more into his judgements on fantasy elves than what was really there. You can argue that JA's style of critical analysis isn't worth all that much since it generally refuses to address the real world implications of the text - and I think that's an extremely fair criticism even though I generally like JA's stuff - but calling him out publicly as ignorant and demanding he donate to charities to make up for his supposed fantasy racism is a bit... much.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:50
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Oh the 11th hour elves are the worse of the two. They've massacred multiple planets before. They just haven't gotten a start on the Witcher planet yet. The ones on the Witcher Planet tried to genocide after they couldn't coexist with humans and they ended up losing badly.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:51
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Also claiming she didn't wanna engage and then doing a Twitter callout thread and pulling the same shtick when JA went "hey what the gently caress" was real bad.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:53
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Srice posted:All elves are assholes Ishmari from Dragon Quest 8 is one of the few chill elves. You meet him in a pocket dimension, he comes with you to be a magical therapist for a king and then later on makes a desert remember when it was an ocean so you can float a ship out of it and use it for the rest of the adventure.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:53
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sexpig by night posted:https://twitter.com/sophie_frm_mars/status/1293362454009982978 Why do people pay attention to this clearly insane person who is "troubled" by someone talking about the canon of elves in a dark fantasy setting? That was in August of 2020, how did that make any splash at all? How is it possible that the same people who can't stop talking about how Western Civilization is crumbling and fascism is here and unstoppable are also the ones getting up in arms over someone's critique of a popular series of Polish fantasy novels? I know it's the posting is praxis crowd but holy poo poo I can not imagine myself getting upset in AUGUST of LAST YEAR about someone's take on ELVES
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Dec 31, 2021 21:53
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Arc Hammer posted:Oh the 11th hour elves are the worse of the two. They've massacred multiple planets before. They just haven't gotten a start on the Witcher planet yet. yea the newest strain of alien elves are the worse ones but they're not even really the antagonists you most interact with so those wouldn't be the ones that 'made him racist against elves', those are mainly the 'native elves' who, as pointed out, are just kinda 'older colonists' rather than 'natives' since that's kinda the whole point of Witcher World, we're all cosmic colonists who probably genocided the fish people ages upon ages ago and then started genociding each other because hey, gently caress those guys who act different than us.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:55
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im going to kill the elves
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Dec 31, 2021 21:55
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:im going to kill the elves don't!!!!
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Dec 31, 2021 21:56
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:im going to kill the elves reported for racism
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Dec 31, 2021 21:57
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RareAcumen posted:Ishmari from Dragon Quest 8 is one of the few chill elves. You meet him in a pocket dimension, he comes with you to be a magical therapist for a king and then later on makes a desert remember when it was an ocean so you can float a ship out of it and use it for the rest of the adventure. Hell yeah 16-bit Butt-Head posted:im going to kill the elves good luck, gamer
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Dec 31, 2021 22:00
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Grondoth posted:Why do people pay attention to this clearly insane person who is "troubled" by someone talking about the canon of elves in a dark fantasy setting? Sophie is a good video essayist, I just think this specific situation shows how you can be very lovely towards people that aren't even saying anything bad just because you know you can get away with it and feel morally superior or whatever. Like the weird poster calling me out for using one of Sophie's preferred pronouns until very recently who disappeared into thin air, mind you.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:03
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| # ? May 30, 2024 00:32 |
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Half in the Bag: Matrix 4 is out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpSo4fu1rgM They give the movie a rather earnest chance, it seems. I'm still not sure it sells me because I liked the first movie but 2 and 3 were very much not my jam and going for more feels counterproductive, but it seems better than I hoped, at least in theme.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:08
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