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change my name
Aug 27, 2007

Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.


I will once again bang on my drum and shout that you should all read Lisa Cron's Story Genius for tips on how to avoid this in the first place

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Sitting Here
Dec 31, 2007

change my name posted:

I will once again bang on my drum and shout that you should all read Lisa Cron's Story Genius for tips on how to avoid this in the first place

Avoid which thing? Revising?

change my name
Aug 27, 2007

Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.

Constantly writing down avenues that don't work out and being forced to jump back and totally rework where you started from. Her method isn't perfect (obviously since no one approach will work for everyone), but writing out the inciting incidents for each main character and figuring out what the emotional and plot beats are and how they relate + her scene diagramming guide feel like they'd really help here specifically

Sitting Here
Dec 31, 2007

change my name posted:

Constantly writing down avenues that don't work out and being forced to jump back and totally rework where you started from. Her method isn't perfect (obviously since no one approach will work for everyone), but writing out the inciting incidents for each main character and figuring out what the emotional and plot beats are and how they relate + her scene diagramming guide feel like they'd really help here specifically

Yeah those sound like great tools to have in your toolkit. That said, I think writers are too scared of writing things they end up deleting, for reasons people in this thread have mentioned. I wrote a comprehensive outline for my current novel and I still find myself backtracking because I often need to explore a few variations on a scene before I find the one that flows.

FightingMongoose
Oct 19, 2006
Alrighty, next attempt

quote:

Tom Bailey is not a typical Unit 13 field agent. The rest of the squad think nothing of putting their lives on the line on a daily basis, combating any paranormal threat that comes their way. But Tom’s only been drafted in as cheap maternity leave cover. As far as Tom’s concerned, he just needs to get through the next six months without dying and he can go back to his nice, safe desk job where there’s very little chance of anything trying to eat him.

His supervisor knows that he’s probably not the best man for the job, so she keeps him on relatively low level threats. Ghosts, witches, that sort of thing. Witches like Martha Taggart. Her glory days are long behind her, but she still dreams of forming a new coven and wielding the sort of power that she used to. Tom’s meant to track her down and bring her in. But since her son also works at Unit 13, she manages to keep one step ahead.

Just as well for Tom, since when a greater daemon begins to reawaken and threatens to destroy the world, Martha is one of the few people who could help him stop it. After all, she’s fought the daemon once before. Sure, most of her coven died in the process, but they did win.

In order to stop the daemon, Tom must put aside his reservations and work with Martha, her depleted coven, and her duplicitous son. And he has to make sure that Unit 13 doesn’t arrest any of them before they can save the world.

Fate Accomplice
Nov 30, 2006




I rewrote your latest attempt the way I'd do it.

FA paraphrasing FM posted:

Tom Bailey is atypical even for paranormal combat squad Unit 13. As a maternity cover, Tom desperately wants to stay alive long enough to return to his desk job - if only to avoid being eaten.

After a tangle with a demon years ago destroyed her coven, witch Martha Taggart may have seen better days, but she's got a plan to form a new coven and reclaim her former glory, and a Unit 13 agent for a son keeps her just out of Tom's reach.

When the demon from Martha's past stirs and threatens to eat the planet, Tom, Martha, and her turncoat son have to work together to make sure Tom's desk job still exists when his maternity cover ends.

General Battuta
Feb 7, 2011

This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.
That's definitely a lot more streamlined but also costs a lot of the voice that an agent will be looking for. Is this a cozy paranormal detective book? An Infernal Affairs intrigue thriller? The tone of the query letter helps sell which one it is.

FightingMongoose
Oct 19, 2006

Fate Accomplice posted:

I rewrote your latest attempt the way I'd do it.

Thanks I'll just nick that then ;)

ultrachrist
Sep 27, 2008
I keep anything significant I cut in a separate doc. Or more commonly: When I make significant cuts, I create a new draft and name it v1, v2, etc. I almost never go back to the old versions and restore-- if you had to wonder if it should be cut, it should almost always be cut.

I also have a separate doc where I paste troublesome paragraphs or sentences to edit isolated from everything else. If it turns out the problem was actually in a previous paragraph, which imo is usually a different problem than a bad sentence, then worst case I cut it later after some polishing practice. Rewriting the same sentence over and over is just part of the (my) process and often enjoyable anyway.

FightingMongoose
Oct 19, 2006

General Battuta posted:

That's definitely a lot more streamlined but also costs a lot of the voice that an agent will be looking for. Is this a cozy paranormal detective book? An Infernal Affairs intrigue thriller? The tone of the query letter helps sell which one it is.

It's much closer to being a cozy story. The book has a lot of humour about the agency Tom works for being constantly underfunded and bureaucratic. For example, he has an app on his smartphone to exorcise ghosts, but it charges him every time he uses it. He ends up in peril a lot but I doubt the reader is ever seriously worried about him.

Fate Accomplice
Nov 30, 2006




General Battuta posted:

That's definitely a lot more streamlined but also costs a lot of the voice that an agent will be looking for. Is this a cozy paranormal detective book? An Infernal Affairs intrigue thriller? The tone of the query letter helps sell which one it is.

I 100% agree - I write and read mostly terse hard boiled crime stuff.


FightingMongoose posted:

Thanks I'll just nick that then ;)

You’re welcome to but definitely adapt it to your story’s tone

FightingMongoose
Oct 19, 2006
Here we go again

quote:

When Tom Bailey signed up to Unit 13 he was fully committed to keeping London’s citizens safe from paranormal threats. From the safety of his desk, at least. When a senior field agent goes on maternity leave it falls on Tom to cover her role. He might not be the best that money can buy, but he is the best that the budget can afford.

Martha Taggart should have reformed her broken witches coven years ago. But recruiting Mothers and Maidens isn’t easy these days. Especially with Unit 13 dogging her steps.

But while Unit 13 has protocols for ghosts and witches, it has nothing for handling greater daemons. When one begins to rise, the world’s only hope is for Martha to finish recruiting her coven and banish the daemon. Can Tom set aside his prejudices and his standard operating procedures in order to help the witches, fight the daemon, and save the world?

rohan
Mar 19, 2008

Look, if you had one shot
or one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted
in one moment
Would you capture it...
or just let it slip?


:siren:"THEIR":siren:




FightingMongoose posted:

Here we go again
I like this, and I hope you don’t mind another set of hands wrangling it further:

quote:

When a senior Unit 13 field agent goes on maternity leave, it falls on Tom Bailey to cover her role keeping London safe from paranormal threats. From the safety of his desk, at least; his budget doesn’t cover travel expenses or any sort of security.

Since saving the world from a greater daemon ten years ago, Martha Taggart’s been focused on re-growing her coven, but it’s been difficult — rather than being thanked, witches are now placed under even greater scrutiny. Recruiting new witches isn’t as easy as it once was, even with an insider in Unit 13 keeping suspicion away from her activity. Worse, a new upstart agent is looking for an opportunity to impress the higher-ups, and uncovering her coven’s plans would be enough to land him a promotion and a corner office.

But while Unit 13 has protocols for handling ghosts and witches, Tom’s curiosity uncovers something outside of any employee handbook: the greater daemon is preparing to return. Can Tom set aside his prejudices and standard operating procedures to help the witches rebuild their coven — and can Martha trust an agency that’s betrayed her once before?

I’ve obviously taken some liberties with your plot, but I think a lot of the detail can hopefully be replaced by better examples from the actual story (eg I’m not sure what happened last time the daemon appeared, and if that actually led to any kind of backlash).

I’ve tried to focus on two areas which I think were missing from this latest revision: first, I really enjoyed the kind of workplace humour you had in your first synopsis, which really helped set the tone of the piece, so I’ve doubled down on that. Second, I think all of your synopses so far have kind of skirted around the actual tension between Tom and Martha. I’ve tried to make this more explicit here, by setting up a conflict between the two of them — even though they both want to defeat the daemon, they’re doing so for two different reasons which don’t quite align (again, reading between the lines a bit).

Good luck with your novel! It does sound like a fun and exciting read :)

FightingMongoose
Oct 19, 2006

rohan posted:

and uncovering her coven’s plans would be enough to land him a promotion and a corner office.
Love it!

rohan posted:


Good luck with your novel! It does sound like a fun and exciting read :)
Thanks

D34THROW
Jan 29, 2012

RETAIL RETAIL LISTEN TO ME BITCH ABOUT RETAIL
:rant:
I wanted to launch my webseries a month ago. I don't feel like it's ready yet, but am six chapters and a prologue in - a month and a half of weekly posts. This is in addition to background material and maps and whatnot available on the site.

I hit writer's block three or four weeks ago. I like where I ended the last chapter - the protagonist just got a heavy loving dose of "this is what life is in the Wastes" and is disturbed as gently caress, but I just got blocked. :bang:


Goddammit, I'm gonna stop pissing away time on SA like I have been for a month and put something on paper before the end of today.

Dream Weaver
Jan 23, 2007
Sweat Baby, sweat baby
The serialized nature of royal road enforces my bad actual writing behavior. I imposed the mwf chapters for one book and then the F chapters for another. One way or another, chapters are getting out and i am getting that backlog written, edited and out the door.

And then I added another for the challenge. Oh boy.

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012
in the room where you sleep
How do web serials get traction? Is there a business model or do you just post and pray? Wildbow got lots of attention but he's kind of the exception I think

Megazver
Jan 13, 2006

HIJK posted:

How do web serials get traction? Is there a business model or do you just post and pray? Wildbow got lots of attention but he's kind of the exception I think

(This is assuming you post on RoyalRoad.) It helps to start out by posting a lot of small chapters - at least once a day, twice a day if you can manage it - for at least a week.

SurreptitiousMuffin
Mar 21, 2010

FightingMongoose posted:

Here we go again
Just a note, I think that should be witches' coven rather than witches coven; it is a coven both consisting of and belonging to multiple witches.

Dream Weaver
Jan 23, 2007
Sweat Baby, sweat baby

HIJK posted:

How do web serials get traction? Is there a business model or do you just post and pray? Wildbow got lots of attention but he's kind of the exception I think

https://ellegriffin.substack.com/p/zogarth

Long answer there. All of her post are good.

Short answer: have a backlog, post consistently, write well, have a good blurb and cover.

I didn't post anything until I had 40 chapters and I keep 20 chapters in the bank.

Dream Weaver
Jan 23, 2007
Sweat Baby, sweat baby
Also I have been doing a lot of review swaps with other authors and shout outs.

Leng
May 13, 2006

One song / Glory
One song before I go / Glory
One song to leave behind


No other road
No other way
No day but today
My turn to ask for a blurb crit :sweatdrop:! This is for a new adult single POV first in series fantasy novel (approx 110k words though who knows, the word count keeps climbing during revision) that I plan to self-publish.

quote:

Petition (Resonance Crystal Legacy: Volume 1)

Rahelu’s parents couldn’t afford to send their magically talented daughter to the Conclave so they did the next best thing: they sold what they couldn’t carry and left Chanaz behind. For they have heard that the Aleznuaweite Guild will train anyone in the resonance disciplines and everyone who is willing to put in the work can rise above the station of their birth to the level of their talent—even a foreign fisher brat without a coin to her name.

When they arrive, Rahelu discovers that the reality of life in Ennuost Yrg is very far from her parents’ dream. Not only is their new home in the Lowdocks also home to the very worst denizens of the city, but her parents struggle to catch enough fish to stay ahead of the loan sharks—and Rahelu herself can hardly keep up with the privileged House-born Guild trainees.

The only thing sustaining her is the thought of Petition Day. Once a year, hundreds Petition to join one of the great Houses. If Rahelu is accepted, she’ll be able to move her family out of the Lowdocks and achieve that dream of a better life at last. But the Houses have exacting standards—and only the twenty best Petitioners will win places as Supplicants.

Rahelu’s parents sacrificed everything for that dream: will Rahelu be willing to do the same?

It is wordy and far too long and terrible and I am terrible at blurbs :cry:

My comparable titles (inasmuch as my crappy MS Paint efforts resemble actual works of art :v:) are:
  • Fonda Lee's Green Bone Saga (Jade City/Jade War/Jade Legacy)
  • Feist/Wurts's Empire Trilogy (Daughter/Servant/Mistress of the Empire)
  • Trudi Canavan's Black Magician trilogy (The Magicians' Guild/The Novice/The High Lord)
  • Trudi Canavan's Age of the Five trilogy (Priestess of the White/Last of the Wilds/Voice of the Gods)
  • Helen Lowe's Wall of Night series (The Heir of Night/The Gathering of the Lost/The Daughter of Blood)
  • General Battuta's Masquerade/Baru (Traitor/Monster/Tyrant)

I'm also looking for beta readers. If this sounds like it might be something you would enjoy, then please PM me (or if you don't have PMs then let me know where I can reach you in the thread).

Leng fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Dec 30, 2023

D34THROW
Jan 29, 2012

RETAIL RETAIL LISTEN TO ME BITCH ABOUT RETAIL
:rant:
Managed to put out almost 1,000 words today. Felt nice, though I can't say they're amazing words. Words all the same. :gbsmith:

SurreptitiousMuffin
Mar 21, 2010
I feel like it's way too dense re worldbuilding elements? There are a lot of big fantasy names that we don't have context for and so they're really hard to sink your teeth into. We've got:

1) the Conclave
2) Chanaz
3) the Aleznuaweite Guild
4) resonance disciplines
5) Ennuost Yrg
6) Lowdocks
7) Houses/House-Born
8) Petition Day
9) Supplicants

quote:

Rahelu’s parents couldn’t afford to send their magically talented daughter to the Conclave so they did the next best thing: they sold what they couldn’t carry and left Chanaz behind. For they have heard that the Aleznuaweite Guild will train anyone in the resonance disciplines and everyone who is willing to put in the work can rise above the station of their birth to the level of their talent—even a foreign fisher brat without a coin to her name.

When they arrive, Rahelu discovers that the reality of life in Ennuost Yrg is very far from her parents’ dream. Not only is their new home in the Lowdocks also home to the very worst denizens of the city, but her parents struggle to catch enough fish to stay ahead of the loan sharks—and Rahelu herself can hardly keep up with the privileged House-born Guild trainees.

The only thing sustaining her is the thought of Petition Day. Once a year, hundreds Petition to join one of the great Houses. If Rahelu is accepted, she’ll be able to move her family out of the Lowdocks and achieve that dream of a better life at last. But the Houses have exacting standards—and only the twenty best Petitioners will win places as Supplicants.

Rahelu’s parents sacrificed everything for that dream: will Rahelu be willing to do the same?
Oh these things, from that blurb, I have a really solid picture of the Lowdocks and the rest are sort of ... vague fuzzy fantasy-places and things (e.g. I read Resonance as "probably magic?"), and I think you need to identify which ones matter and focus on them in depth rather than the shotgun spray you've for there. Like, for example, does Chanaz matter in the story? It seems like a place they leave and don't come back to, but you've put it front and center in your opening para in a way that you're probably better-off to reserve for elements that actually matter. Why does the Conclave matter if that's the place she doesn't go? It comes before the Guild in the blurb but the Guild seems far more important plot-wise. If they're an antagonistic force then bring them in like that, but right now they're just ... kinda there?

To me, it seems like the elements that actually matter are:

1) Rahelu
2) The Guild
3) Resonance
4) Ennuost Yrg (the city where The Lowdocks are?)
5) Petition Day

There's a tight and muscular plot in there, poor child has a gift and manages to rise up through society through merit, with a clear and concrete endgoal that she needs to hone her skills for, it's just sort of currently playing second fiddle to a bunch of worldbuildy stuff rather than being supported by it. It takes three paragraphs to get to Petition Day, which seems like the protag's primary motivation? You want to get to her current needs/goals as quickly as possible rather than taking the scenic route through the backstory.

SurreptitiousMuffin fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Jan 4, 2022

Nae
Sep 3, 2020

what.

Leng posted:

My turn to ask for a blurb crit :sweatdrop:! This is for a new adult single POV first in series fantasy novel (approx 110k words though who knows, the word count keeps climbing during revision) that I plan to self-publish.

It is wordy and far too long and terrible and I am terrible at blurbs :cry:

My comparable titles (inasmuch as my crappy MS Paint efforts resemble actual works of art :v:) are:
  • Fonda Lee's Green Bone Saga (Jade City/Jade War/Jade Legacy)
  • Feist/Wurtz's Empire Trilogy (Daughter/Servant/Mistress of the Empire)
  • Trudi Canavan's Black Magician trilogy (The Magicians' Guild/The Novice/The High Lord)
  • Trudi Canavan's Age of the Five trilogy (Priestess of the White/Last of the Wilds/Voice of the Gods)
  • Helen Lowe's Wall of Night series (The Heir of Night/The Gathering of the Lost/The Daughter of Blood)
  • General Battuta's Masquerade/Baru (Traitor/Monster/Tyrant)

I'm also looking for beta readers. If this sounds like it might be something you would enjoy, then please PM me (or if you don't have PMs then let me know where I can reach you in the thread).

Thoughts in no particular order:

- I'll beta read for you. Shoot me a PM and I can turn around some thoughts in like three weeks or so.

- I get the gist of your plot from the blurb, so that's good. Rahelu has magic powers, but she's poor, so her family has to move to a place where they can afford to educate her. Unfortunately, the new area sucks, and they're even poorer than before, so Rahelu has to enter some contest to get an education, otherwise the move was pointless and her family is super-duper broke. If that sounds like an accurate summary, then you've done a good job getting the plot across.

- You've got a ton of unfamiliar concepts nouns in here. Some of them (ex: Chanaz, Aleznuaweite Guild, Ennuost Yrg) are names that you don't necessarily need; while others (ex: Conclave, Petitioners, and Supplicants) can be swapped out for basic nouns that don't require capitalization (ex: council, applicants, trainees). The fewer unfamiliar nouns you have in a blurb, the better.

- That being said, what's a resonance discipline? I don't need to know your whole magic system in the blurb (in fact, I don't want to), but I should have some idea what makes your world's magic unique. What do the resonance disciplines do?

- Rahelu is your protagonist (I assume) but you focus a lot on her parents and their actions and desires here. What does Rahelu care about? Does she have her own reasons for going to magic school, or is she only doing it to fulfill her parents' dreams? If she's only doing it for them, how does that make her feel? If I'm going to read a book about her, I need to know who she is and what she wants, not who her parents are and what they want.

- Unfortunately I have nothing useful to say about your comps, because I've only read half of them and I'll need to read your manuscript before I know if they work. Knowing who Rahelu is as a character will also make the comps more obvious. Having said that, if you're self-pubbing this, I wouldn't sweat having the perfect comps since you'll be the one doing all the marketing. That means you get to choose how to lure in readers!

edit: god damnit muffin, I wanted to be the one to point out the proper nouns

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
Yeah I don't really have anything to add aside from what Nae and Muffin said-there's a bit of Proper Noun Overdosage, maybe cut some of that back, focus more on Rahelu than her parents, etc.

Leng
May 13, 2006

One song / Glory
One song before I go / Glory
One song to leave behind


No other road
No other way
No day but today
Those are some amazing, comprehensive crits. Thank you!

Here's a revised version that eliminates most of the Fantasy Proper Nouns, adds magic system flavor with more of a focus on Rahelu and bringing up Petition Day earlier:

quote:

Petition (Resonance Crystal Legacy: Volume 1)

All emotions echo through time, leaving resonances that a properly trained mage can use to conjure the past, discern truth from lies, foretell the future and more. While Rahelu has a strong natural affinity for the resonance disciplines, her parents can’t afford a mage’s tuition so they did the next best thing: they sold everything and moved to the other side of the continent.

There, the Guild trains everyone. And once a year, hundreds Petition to join one of the great Houses. Anyone willing to put in the work can rise above the station of their birth to the level of their talent (even a foreign fisher brat without a coin to her name).

But the Houses have exacting standards—only the twenty best Petitioners will be accepted. Despite her aptitude, Rahelu can hardly keep up with the other trainees who have the backing of wealth and privilege. And if no House takes Rahelu, she and her parents will never be able to escape their new home in the Lowdocks (where an average of five people are stabbed every night and her parents struggle to catch enough fish to stay ahead of the loan sharks).

How far will she go to ensure her family’s sacrifices were not in vain?
Somewhere somehow I'm sure I can make this even more succinct but I'm out of ideas for now.

Nae posted:

- I'll beta read for you. Shoot me a PM and I can turn around some thoughts in like three weeks or so.

Thank you, that would be amazing! I will PM you by the end of the week (I'm hoping I can nail some revisions on the opening first, as it currently sucks).

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
I'd also be willing to read this despite my inexperience, though Discord would probably work better for me than PMs ( RisingDragonBlade#7518 )

rohan
Mar 19, 2008

Look, if you had one shot
or one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted
in one moment
Would you capture it...
or just let it slip?


:siren:"THEIR":siren:




The new blurb reads a lot better IMO, and it sets up some good motivations without going overboard with establishing worldbuilding context. In terms of tightening up the language:

I think the beginning of the synopsis could be tightened up to introduce Rahelu earlier, eg:

quote:

Rahelu is a natural at channelling Emotional Resonance, a powerful magic that can be used to conjure the past, discern truth from deceit, or even foretell the future.

I’m not a big fan of “Petition”, to be honest — I’m sure it makes sense in the book, but here I don’t understand why it’s in title-case. Perhaps explaining what the Petition entails, eg “Once a year, hundreds of hopeful students enter the Petition — a brutal challenge held by the Houses, from which a select few will be chosen to rise above the station of their birth”.

I’d also cut out some of the needless detail — “hundreds” works okay at setting the scope, but “only the twenty best” honestly minimises the stakes for me (that actually seems like decent odds) and the later “average of five people are stabbed” is some decent flavour-text that’s probably out of place in something that needs to be this tight. (In fact that entire parenthetical would be better incorporated into the paragraph itself, or else cut.)

Also: admittedly, I’m not across publishing trends, but I’m not sure why this is “new adult” as opposed to YA? My understanding was that “new adult” leans more toward late teens and might cover more mature themes such as sexuality, or gaining independence, which don’t seem to be covered here. Judging by the blurb, I was imagining the protagonist to be no older than a young teen — I think if she’s meant to be older, this could be made more clear.

It sounds like a fun read and I’ve read and enjoyed at least some of your comps, so I’d also be happy to be a beta reader when you’re ready :)

rohan fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Jan 4, 2022

DropTheAnvil
May 16, 2021

Leng posted:

I'm also looking for beta readers. If this sounds like it might be something you would enjoy, then please PM me (or if you don't have PMs then let me know where I can reach you in the thread).

I can beta read for you if you wish! We've conversed in newt's Night City Thread, so you know my style.

quote:

Petition (Resonance Crystal Legacy: Volume 1)

All emotions echo through time, leaving resonances that a properly trained mage can use to conjure the past, discern truth from lies, foretell the future and more. While Rahelu has a strong natural affinity for the resonance disciplines, her parents can’t afford a mage’s tuition so they did the next best thing: they sold everything and moved to the other side of the continent.

There, the Guild trains everyone. And once a year, hundreds Petition to join one of the great Houses. Anyone willing to put in the work can rise above the station of their birth to the level of their talent (even a foreign fisher brat without a coin to her name).

But the Houses have exacting standards—only the twenty best Petitioners will be accepted. Despite her aptitude, Rahelu can hardly keep up with the other trainees who have the backing of wealth and privilege. And if no House takes Rahelu, she and her parents will never be able to escape their new home in the Lowdocks (where an average of five people are stabbed every night and her parents struggle to catch enough fish to stay ahead of the loan sharks).

How far will she go to ensure her family’s sacrifices were not in vain?

Should add I like your blurbs. My thoughts are below

  • The first sentence didn't have much of a character element, and was more involved with explaining the magic system. I was much more invested when I read the 2nd sentence.
  • I don't know why Petition (a verb) is capitalized. Line: Once a year, hundreds Petition to join one of the great houses.
  • I like that you have set stakes about the LowDocks, and gave Ralegih family to care about, and more importantly something to lose
  • The focus on Raleigh's family (They, the fact that the family does something) makes me think they are going to be important characters, not just side characters.
  • Weird Point: You don't mention Raleigh has joined the Guild.

The talent level / birth level thing in the second sentence is bugging me for some reason. Not the content but the execution. I dislike that we learn about her lowly birth after the Great Houses line, and the fact that it is in brackets. The 2nd and 3rd paragraph also repeat the same information, just in different ways.

2nd paragraph: Rayleigh, a foreigner fisher brat, is going to enter the Petition, and if she fails she will lose out on rising above the station of her birth.
3rd paragraph: Rayleigh, who lives in the low docks, is going to enter the Petition. The Petition only accepts 20 people, and if Rayleigh is not accepted, she and her family will stay in the Lowdocks.

DropTheAnvil fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Jan 4, 2022

kurona_bright
Mar 21, 2013

Dream Weaver posted:

https://ellegriffin.substack.com/p/zogarth

Long answer there. All of her post are good.

Short answer: have a backlog, post consistently, write well, have a good blurb and cover.

I didn't post anything until I had 40 chapters and I keep 20 chapters in the bank.

It's an interesting interview, but these excerpts are pretty offputting tbh:

quote:

Pretty much every story on Royal Road is LitRPG—which I write. If you write in that genre and you publish a lot, there are a lot of people who search for those kinds of stories and you will get on some of the trending lists and gain a following—but only if you post a lot.

quote:

There are a few things about Royal Road that are annoying when you post. For example, anything LGBTQ you pretty much can’t write about, because you're going to get your story downvoted. You're going to get criticized and people are going to hate it. If there's even a hint of a gay or bi character anywhere in the novel, it won’t do well on the platform. In fact, any romance is going to get hated on because people hate it for some reason on Royal Road.

Dream Weaver
Jan 23, 2007
Sweat Baby, sweat baby

kurona_bright posted:

It's an interesting interview, but these excerpts are pretty offputting tbh:

I'm not saying it's easy. But otherwise even Elle Griffin, who has nailed the marketing game as much as anyone could, even she went from a pay wall for her own novel on substack, to a different model almost immediately. A month in and she changed and then wrote about it so it's fascinating.

Mother of Learning makes money each month that that is standard fantasy.

Beware of Chicken is probably the highest grossing fic there and that's a xanxia subversion of tropes.

I think about 20 fics make enough there via patreon advance chapters to live off of.

In the web serials SA thread they are always talking about a few specific fics(TUTBAD) and i am sure that you could note that royal road just like specific things a bit more.

However for months my LGBTQ+ story has been outpacing my main novel and it's been causing me to tear my hair out since I have put so little effort into that story(Tales of the Riverfolk, now in Volume 2) which was initially made as a reader magnet for my other book( Red mist, same.world some characters carry over ). So what I am saying is that good writing is good writing and if you want to read your polygamous bisexual otters selling fish story, well loving write the drat story.

Also it's great for a ton of feedback.

Megazver
Jan 13, 2006
He's not wrong in that if you want to make money cranking out multiple chapters a day of a basic Blue Boxes Go Brrrr story like he did, that audience is not interested in The Gays, because the genre is there for straight dudenerds, who are significantly more likely to be on the spectrum, to vicariously live through.

But there is definitely a sizeable audience for stories where the author is actually trying. Just do your thing, if it's good and (more importantly, haha) if you update regularly, you'll probably find an audience.

Leng
May 13, 2006

One song / Glory
One song before I go / Glory
One song to leave behind


No other road
No other way
No day but today

rohan posted:

Also: admittedly, I’m not across publishing trends, but I’m not sure why this is “new adult” as opposed to YA? My understanding was that “new adult” leans more toward late teens and might cover more mature themes such as sexuality, or gaining independence, which don’t seem to be covered here. Judging by the blurb, I was imagining the protagonist to be no older than a young teen — I think if she’s meant to be older, this could be made more clear.

DropTheAnvil posted:

  • Weird Point: You don't mention Raleigh has joined the Guild.

Thank you both SO MUCH for asking these questions. It made me realize that I've been waaaaay too close to this and I've completely left out the new adult angle. Rahelu is 17 so there is messy learning to adult stuff, including some more explicit language, sexuality and violence than I would include if it were YA, but it's also not quite adult and not grimdark.

The heavy focus on the Guild means everyone is taking "magic school" away from the blurb when the book doesn't spend any time at magic school because it is about what happens post magic college graduation. Like we're talking fantasy job applications where it's a Shark Tank meets The Apprentice cage match.

Here's take 3:

quote:

Petition (Resonance Crystal Legacy: Volume 1)

Rahelu is a natural at the resonance disciplines: the ability to manipulate emotional echoes to discern truth from lies, conjure the past or even foretell the future. Her parents can’t afford a mage’s tuition, so they did the next best thing: they sold everything and moved to the other side of the continent.

There, anyone willing to put in the work can rise above their station to the level of their talent—even a foreign fisher brat without a coin to her name. But it’s a struggle to catch enough fish to stay ahead of the loan sharks and Rahelu barely graduates.

Petition Day is her last chance to ensure her family’s sacrifices were not in vain. Once a year, hundreds apply to the great Houses during an open recruitment contest—and only the very best will be accepted. If Rahelu can convince a House to employ her, she and her parents can finally escape their new home in the Lowdocks.

How far will she go to prove that ability matters more than birth?

rohan posted:

It sounds like a fun read and I’ve read and enjoyed at least some of your comps, so I’d also be happy to be a beta reader when you’re ready :)

DropTheAnvil posted:

I can beta read for you if you wish! We've conversed in newt's Night City Thread, so you know my style.

Thank you both! Will PM you later this week.

PS: DropTheAnvil I was gonna PM you with the hopes of convincing you to beta read for me regardless of whether you responded in this thread because the comprehensive crit you did for newts was incredible and I loved it.

rohan
Mar 19, 2008

Look, if you had one shot
or one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted
in one moment
Would you capture it...
or just let it slip?


:siren:"THEIR":siren:




Leng posted:

Thank you both SO MUCH for asking these questions. It made me realize that I've been waaaaay too close to this and I've completely left out the new adult angle. Rahelu is 17 so there is messy learning to adult stuff, including some more explicit language, sexuality and violence than I would include if it were YA, but it's also not quite adult and not grimdark.
I think the new blurb is an improvement in a lot of ways, but I’m still not getting these angles from the blurb.

Also, “fantasy Shark Tank meets the Apprentice cage match” is a pretty compelling hook that I’m not really getting from the blurb as written, unfortunately.

I was definitely getting more “magic school” vibes from the original blurbs, and I’m wondering if you should focus even less on the school aspect than you are now? “She barely graduates” is a bit of whiplash in the second para as it’s being set up as a magic school blurb before that’s ripped away from us.

quote:

Rahelu is a natural at the resonance disciplines: the ability to manipulate emotional echoes to discern truth from lies, conjure the past or even foretell the future. Her parents sold everything and upended their life for her to train at the Guild — but she’s still a foreign fisher brat, and when recruitment season arrives, her natural aptitude is nothing compared to the wealth and privilege of the other trainees.

Petition Day is her last chance to ensure her family’s sacrifices were not in vain. Once a year, hundreds apply to the great Houses during an open recruitment contest—and only the very best will be accepted. If Rahelu can defeat the other candidates over a series of gruelling challenges, she’ll prove her parents’ sacrifices were not in vain; but the challenges reveal more about herself, and her so-called rivals, than she expects.

How far will she go to prove that ability matters more than birth?
I’ve cut the second para entirely, as I think there are enough hints that her family’s struggling without needing to talk about loan sharks. I’ve also condensed the first para a bit and added the “wealth and privilege” bit from a previous draft, since I think it’s really important to set up the final question.

The one thing I think your new blurb’s missing is a hint of conflict — obviously there’s an implied conflict in the Petition Day, but I think the actual nature of the conflict could be made more clear. Here, with the “challenges reveal more about herself”, I’m assuming there’s a bit of inner conflict, and perhaps some messy interpersonal conflict with the other candidates, based on the “messy learning to adult stuff” you mentioned. The question “how far will she go” implies there’s some sort of dilemma she’ll face at some point, and I think we could add some set-up to make this a bit clearer.

[edit: ugh, “sacrifices were not in vain” is now in twice, sorry :(

rohan fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Jan 4, 2022

Sailor Viy
Aug 4, 2013

And when I can swim no longer, if I have not reached Aslan's country, or shot over the edge of the world into some vast cataract, I shall sink with my nose to the sunrise.

Dream Weaver posted:


However for months my LGBTQ+ story has been outpacing my main novel and it's been causing me to tear my hair out since I have put so little effort into that story(Tales of the Riverfolk, now in Volume 2) which was initially made as a reader magnet for my other book( Red mist, same.world some characters carry over ). So what I am saying is that good writing is good writing and if you want to read your polygamous bisexual otters selling fish story, well loving write the drat story.

Also it's great for a ton of feedback.

Thanks for pointing this out, based on the Zogarth interview I got the impression that any LGBT characters would get your story downvoted into oblivion.

Dream Weaver
Jan 23, 2007
Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Sailor Viy posted:

Thanks for pointing this out, based on the Zogarth interview I got the impression that any LGBT characters would get your story downvoted into oblivion.

https://www.royalroad.com/forums/thread/108535

The community made a list. So there is demand.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'
Did someone say web serials?

HIJK posted:

How do web serials get traction? Is there a business model or do you just post and pray? Wildbow got lots of attention but he's kind of the exception I think

Wildbow put in a lot of hard work and effort but he also got extremely lucky when Eliezer Yudkowsky gave him a shout out at the height of rationalist mania. Even Wildbow admits that this was a significant turning point and what ultimately allowed him to do what he does today. The other thing that allowed him to do it is that he was able to live off a Patreon of 1000-2000 a month before he launched Ward. The 'independent' web serial community was also a lot more active back during Worm's first few years. As a creative, Wildbow does very little to actually market his work or reach new fans. He's very lucky the Worm fanbase is so energised and has managed to get him where he is after an actual decade. But I mean, think of it this way: he's been working his rear end off for a decade and it appears he hit his peak with Ward, the controversial sequel to Worm.

If you're not posting on RoyalRoad then, well, here's the hard truth: you don't. The web serial community is a shadow of what it was just a few years ago (although RoyalRoad is doing better than ever.) I think the goon-written Katalepsis is one of the more successful web serials that doesn't post on RoyalRoad of late but it's the only one I know if that's seemed to gain any kind of independent traction (in the sense that I see people talking about it but I don't know how any numbers look.) Scratch that, Hungry does post it there. So, you post and pray. And probably write a LitRPG that hits all the right buttons for the readers.

If you're posting on RoyalRoad, then as others have said, you want to post every day and at different times of day. Preferably you want to post multiple updates a day. Getting on the Trending lists is paramount. There used to be a way to game the algorithm to make that very easy but I think they've caught it and fixed it. There is a model but even then you're relying on luck. It's no different from any other kind of online content creation where it follows a Pareto distribution (or, as Freddie de Boer pointed out with Patreon, a Pareto within a Pareto.)

If you're asking this because you're thinking of writing a web serial... To be frank, write a web serial as a way of forcing you to write x amount of words a week. I would not recommend writing it if you are intending any kind of significant income. That way, you might as well just go down the Amazon route. Even Wildbow would probably make way more money putting his stuff on Amazon than depending on Patreon donations.

When I say Amazon I do not mean Vella, their serial platform. Based on authors I know who have been using it, that thing is apparently on its last legs already and I can't imagine it lasting too much longer.

Sailor Viy posted:

Thanks for pointing this out, based on the Zogarth interview I got the impression that any LGBT characters would get your story downvoted into oblivion.

I had a story with three LGBT protagonists and it was never a problem on RR or otherwise. However, my RR traction was not particularly great as I was writing an introspective/philosophical action thriller (topped out at #118, I think) so I probably skated by the stuff someone like Zogarth talks about. Either way, I hit #2 on TopWebFiction for a while, so, it was never much of an issue.

Dream Weaver posted:

I'm not saying it's easy. But otherwise even Elle Griffin, who has nailed the marketing game as much as anyone could, even she went from a pay wall for her own novel on substack, to a different model almost immediately. A month in and she changed and then wrote about it so it's fascinating.

I spoke with Elle Griffin a few times and she seems like a lovely person but I feel she fell right into the trap that so many prospective writers do when they first hear about web serials. That is, and I'm including myself in this, they think something along the lines of 'Wait, people will pay this much for [any given web serial]? It shouldn't be too hard to do that!' and immediately find out that, sure, there's an audience -- but it's an extremely limited one with very narrow tastes (see also: Vella.) Her whole interview thing seemed like an interesting attempt to ingratiate with a bunch of the biggest writers in the hopes of finding an audience that way. I think she's ditched her Substack serial writers Discord and serial subreddit she set up, too, and turned to funding a web novel via crypto apparently which feels like further evidence that she didn't find whatever returns she was looking for. She had a plan, she came out swinging, and then shifted gears very quickly.

There's an emerging band of people who want to post fiction on Substack but I have no idea how it's working out for them. Elle's own chapters seem to have less traction than her articles which is matched by what I know of Freddie De Boer's fiction. There was an article I read on Substack recently that was about the way you succeed at making money on the platform and it's big point was that, basically, you want to write something that people can't get from normal/traditional media. This is the same with web serials, which is why the big money makers are all basically LitRPGs. The issue I think Elle had is that there's just no significant audience for normal genre fiction and the number who'll pay for it is even less. They can just... go buy an Ebook for 4.99 and get a full story.

Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Jan 5, 2022

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012
in the room where you sleep

Megazver posted:

(This is assuming you post on RoyalRoad.) It helps to start out by posting a lot of small chapters - at least once a day, twice a day if you can manage it - for at least a week.

Dream Weaver posted:

https://ellegriffin.substack.com/p/zogarth

Long answer there. All of her post are good.

Short answer: have a backlog, post consistently, write well, have a good blurb and cover.

I didn't post anything until I had 40 chapters and I keep 20 chapters in the bank.

Milkfred E. Moore posted:

Did someone say web serials?

This is really interesting, thank you. I'm despairing that Yud once again has his grimy little hands in this but it makes sense. I'm intrigued by the idea of web serials but I don't think I'd like to try it as a means to making a living, it seems like a lot of work that I'm not currently capable of producing. And LitRPGs, ew. I'm not cynical enough to write those.

I think a web serial sounds like a good way to get some practice -- put something out no matter what -- but I tried a once a week publishing schedule on a story back in 2014 and by the time I hit the fourth chapter I couldn't keep up the pace. Now a days I can put out a short story per year. Awful.

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HIJK
Nov 25, 2012
in the room where you sleep
https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/literary-fanfic This is an interesting article about how fanfiction is bleeding into literary fiction. Excerpt:

quote:

Fanfic tends to have a distinctive style: heavy on sentence fragments, emotionally expressive actions, and one-sentence paragraphs; filled with italicized phrases, syntactical repetition, and present-tense verbs. These stylistic features arise from the genre’s particular demands. In fic, the writer’s task isn’t to create a character named “Han Solo” or “Barack Obama.” It’s to convince the reader of this particular instantiation of a character they already know. Backstory and general habits of mind can be excised without much loss; elements that intensify character presence and readerly identification—strong emotions and bodily descriptions—are emphasized. The result has a particular staccato rhythm. Everything, from syntax to narrative perspective, stresses immediacy.

Two modes of writing, then, that seem almost diametrically opposed: literary fiction, writing that emphasizes craft and wins awards; and fanfic, writing that emphasizes, and is born from, readerly pleasure and happily exists outside the prize economy. Except that, in recent years, some of the most lauded works of literary fiction have begun to read an awful lot like fanfic...

The Song of Achilles exemplifies literary fanfic because it has both fic content (it offers a new angle on a previous story) and fic style. Some examples of this hybrid genre have fic origins but not its formal features: Edward St. Aubyn’s Dunbar (2017), which reimagines King Lear as an unhoused, broken-down media titan, doing so with the English novelist’s typical mordant elegance; or John Banville’s Mrs. Osmond (2017), which picks up where The Portrait of a Lady leaves off, and employs Henry James’s endlessly unfolding, simultaneously revealing and withholding sentences. By contrast, Carmen Maria Machado’s excellent stories often exhibit the rhythms of fic, from the clipped style of “Especially Heinous,” a high-level reimagining of characters from Law & Order: SVU, to the driving immersiveness of “The Husband Stitch”: “He smiles at me, and rubs his jaw. A little of my blood smears across his skin, but he doesn’t notice, and I don’t say anything.” In both works that have fic content and those that have fic style, though, affect is the key. Banville writes a James sequel because he loves the original; Miller wants to make Achilles, and the reader, feel all the feels.

There are a number of possible explanations for this leakage of fan culture into literary culture. Literary fiction (A sad young BLANK …) could use some of the energy and feeling that characterizes much of fanfic. Fandom now is seen less as a mark of shame than as a badge of honor. Writers and readers are frustrated with an exclusive focus on craft at the expense of readerly identification. Whatever the root cause, what used to be a hard-and-fast division—literary fiction over here, fanfic over there—has become something of a revolving door.

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