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For more amusement involving Scharnhorst, have a video on Operation Cerberus. Putting on Yackety Sax while watching is optional.
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Jan 4, 2022 06:49
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Tree Bucket posted:You know, guys, this whole "war" thing sounds really unsafe. Vizeadmiral Maximilian Johannes Maria Hubert Reichsgraf von Spee  e: I challenge anyone to find a more German looking German. Saint Celestine fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Jan 4, 2022 |
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Jan 4, 2022 07:02
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Saint Celestine posted:Vizeadmiral Maximilian Johannes Maria Hubert Reichsgraf von Spee Very well. I acknowledge the superior German Name
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Jan 4, 2022 07:08
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Saint Celestine posted:Vizeadmiral Maximilian Johannes Maria Hubert Reichsgraf von Spee Claus Philipp Maria Justinian Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg
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Jan 4, 2022 07:15
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LOL, Scharnhorst pulling a full World of Warships routine there. The Scharnhorst twins' design prioritising armor and speed does kinda harken back to WWI-era german battles´cruisers, which likewise tended to sacrifice gun calibre and/or number for increased survivability when compared to their british counterparts. Colorado vs Revenge is gonna be pretty close. Colorado has a better armor scheme and slightly better guns, Revenge has a bigger secondary battery and two more fixed torpedo tubes. Magni fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Jan 4, 2022 |
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Jan 4, 2022 10:17
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Matchup #7: USS Colorado (1921) vs HMS Revenge (1916) USS Colorado  Belt Armor: 13.5 inchesDeck Armor: 3.5 inches Main Battery: 8x16 inch guns Speed: 21 kts I think the Colorados were the first battleships with 16” guns, which is pretty cool. They’re also, along with a couple other American “standards,” the slowest ships in the tournament. So, that tells you what you really need to know about the Colorados. They were pretty fierce for their time, and were designed to fight in a long, slow line of battle relying on weight of fire and thick belt armor. In practice, they were largely obsolete by the 1930s, and spent most of WWII dueling with shore batteries and blowing up dirt. One of the Colorados, however – the USS West Virginia – would go down in history as the last battleship to hit another battleship with gunfire, as she and her sisters and cousins dunked on a depleted Japanese line of battle at Surigao Strait. West Virginia’s radar-laid fire achieved a first-round hit, thus sending the era of big gun naval action into history. Colorados have a lot of firepower and armor, both of which are nice things to have. In a mildly interesting quirk of history, Colorado herself – the ship that will be fighting in the tournament – never received a fire control radar upgrade as several of her sister ships did, so she’ll be slinging her bigass shells with optics only. HMS Revenge  Belt Armor: 13 inches Deck Armor: 4 inches Main Battery: 8x15 inch guns Speed: 21.9 kts Though they entered service after the Queen Elizabeths, Revenge-class ships were actually smaller and slower than their big sisters. They were key elements of the Royal Navy’s line of battle during WWI and were the newest battleships in the fleet at Jutland. All but one made it through WWII, by which time they were very, very worn out. They spent much of the second war being torpedoed by various things and were then retired. Revenge is a pure line-of-battle ship, slow and well protected. She slings a lot of metal and should be extremely tough. Revenge was upgraded with some early radars and additional protection prior to WWII, but never really saw much action. Her 15” gunfire should be pretty accurate and she’ll take a serious beating, but her lack of speed limits her to just face-up brawling. The Battle These ships are incredibly similar. Colorado has bigger guns, but Revenge has a primitive radar. Other than that, I have no idea how this might play out. I’m guessing they’ll just get within pistol shot of one another and let the guns figure out who wins.  Colorado wheels around to go hunting.  Shellfire from out of nowhere. Colorado does not yet know where her opponent is, but Revenge is already firing – albeit pretty inaccurately.  After a while, Revenge emerges on the horizon. You can see the first shot from Colorado just behind her…it didn’t miss by all that much.  Colorado is the first ship to broadside-up.  The aggressive maneuver pays off – she’s the first to score a hit. She punches a hole in Revenge’s bow just ahead of her belt armor and starts a small fire.  Revenge puts the fire out easily and steams towards Colorado as quickly as she can with all 8 guns trained. She’s being ultra-aggressive.  Revenge takes more hits: a partial penetration of her belt, and a deck shot on her starboard side. She has yet to land a single damaging hit on Colorado, though she has put a couple of rounds into Colorado’s belt that were defeated.  It seems to take forever for Revenge to land a shot, but when she does, it is a good one. It pops Colorado just below her belt and near a magazine, causing flooding and slowing Colorado to 19 knots.  Revenge has the range now and is dealing back some punishment. She holes Colorado in almost the same spot where she herself was holed earlier.  The big ships close the range rapidly. Colorado finds herself in a very awkward position, where her 5” secondaries are outranged and overpowered by the 6” guns on Revenge. Secondaries probably aren’t going to be decisive by themselves, but that’s a disadvantage she doesn’t need. Colorado tries to get within 5” firing range, which is very, very tight for 15/16” guns.  Colorado is being hammered by 6” shells. Nothing penetrates, but they start fires and are a pretty big headache. If she doesn’t do something about this, she’s going to be in some trouble.  The contest very suddenly swings dramatically in Colorado’s favor. She hits Revenge with at least four 16” shells, knocking out a gun turret, destroying much of her main tower, and killing the captain. While none of this is lethal, Revenge will now suffer from badly degraded accuracy and reduced crew efficiency, while also losing 25% of her firepower.  The shift in the battle is dramatic. Revenge can’t seem to hit anything anymore, while Colorado can’t seem to miss. Revenge is being absolutely hammered by shells that now overmatch her armor.  That…is a lot of holes. Revenge loses all power and steering, and is now a stationary hulk. She’s tough as hell and won’t blow up, but she’s taking massive punishment.  Revenge may be down, but she’s not out. She puts out the fires and improves her fire control. She hits Colorado several times with heavy shells. One shot looks like it might’ve hit a magazine, but it was not a day for miracles.  What winds up being the coup-de-grace, inbound at the shattered remnants of Revenge.  Revenge succumbs to her wounds. She took a ridiculous amount of punishment, but didn’t blow up, didn’t flood, and kept firing right until the end. A truly noble way for an old battle wagon to go out.  I’d thought Revenges’ radar might make the difference here, but I probably overthought things. Colorado’s guns were bigger, and with all else being more or less equal, that probably proved to be the decisive factor. She could penetrate Revenge at will at their fighting range, while her belt armor proved more or less up to the task of protecting her from Revenge. That said, Revenge was doing extremely well until that one catastrophic hit, and had she not suffered the damage to her fire control and the death of her captain, this one might’ve been much closer.
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Jan 4, 2022 17:38
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Basically how a close match tends to go most of the time. Both sides pummel each other until someone gets in a big hit that cripples the opponent.bewbies posted:I think the Colorados were the first battleships with 16” guns, which is pretty cool. That honor actually goes to Nagato IIRC. The Nagatos, Colorados and Nelsons were the only ships allowed 16-inch guns under the Washington Treaty, which created this kinda funny situation where they actually outgunned later ships until the treaty system finally fell apart in the late 30's. Magni fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Jan 4, 2022 |
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Jan 4, 2022 18:13
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Magni posted:That honor actually goes to Nagato IIRC. yep it sure does! In related news, it feels like Nagato was probably pretty under-seeded. So, uh, sorry about that Tennessee. And possibly Vanguard...
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Jan 4, 2022 18:37
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Eh, I'd actually rate Vanguard the likely winner vs Nagato. Late-war fire control and a speed and armor advantage should carry the day there more often than not.
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Jan 4, 2022 18:45
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Jan 4, 2022 18:52
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Hurrah for Colorado but a noble struggle by Revenge! The kind of fight we like to see.
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Jan 4, 2022 18:57
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Another victory for liberty over the tyranny of monarchy! 
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Jan 4, 2022 19:55
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I made a Dunkerque in UA:D (well, pretty close - you can't put quad 5" turrets on anything so it has 3x5" and it displaces a little more than designed). It has a really hard time because there are no treaty restrictions on the autobuild that I am aware of, so if I put it up against CAs the same builds a bunch of torp-laden 15k ton monstrosities with 9" guns. And there's no way to get it to build a Panzerschiffe like the Deutschland class, so it gets worked by autodesigned 115" gunned BCs that displace 50% more.
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Jan 4, 2022 20:15
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26% main gun accuracy seems ludicrously good for naval warfare. Just luck, or does Colorado have some magic fire control?
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Jan 4, 2022 21:34
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Gort posted:26% main gun accuracy seems ludicrously good for naval warfare. Just luck, or does Colorado have some magic fire control? The Revenge was nearly stationary near the end of the fight - that probably helped gunlaying a fair bit and pushed the percentages up.
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Jan 4, 2022 21:37
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being at what appears to be 10km or less helps too director fire control with automatic gunlaying on a clear day giving a good solution is basically magic
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Jan 4, 2022 22:09
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Nthing the enjoyment at getting both the smackdowns and the slugfests. I was a huge fan of UG:Civil War so when I got a notification about this game I was moderately intrigued. Love seeing it in action.
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Jan 4, 2022 22:47
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Gort posted:26% main gun accuracy seems ludicrously good for naval warfare. Just luck, or does Colorado have some magic fire control? At long range everything that isn't fully pimped out heavy guns with radars is pretty bad. Colorado didn't start scoring hits until probably 17-18km, and even then was pretty wild albeit dangerous. The 26% is driven almost entirely by her putting a zillion salvoes into a smoking stationary hulk from about 3000m away. Which...she still missed more than she hit, but she got the job done. Hopefully at some point they break down gunnery accuracy a bit more, like by range, or after some sort of degradation happens, etc. Revenge losing her citadel was absolutely huge and I'm betting her accuracy was cut in half if not more by it.
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Jan 4, 2022 23:05
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Gort posted:26% main gun accuracy seems ludicrously good for naval warfare. Just luck, or does Colorado have some magic fire control? If you feel like punching yourself in the nuts over and over again, try playing this game with 1890 fire control. Lucky to get 1% accuracy.
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Jan 5, 2022 01:00
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Saint Celestine posted:If you feel like punching yourself in the nuts over and over again, try playing this game with 1890 fire control. Lucky to get 1% accuracy. also every battleship ship is proof against its own guns so hope u like burning down ships or getting in real close to torp
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Jan 5, 2022 03:44
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Just pretend you're Nelson and are sailing a magical ship of the line that can go upwind. Remember, no man can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy!
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Jan 5, 2022 04:05
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I parked my faster, range-dictating, battlecruisers with their larger guns, that shoot further than those of the competition, into the effective range of the enemy battlecruisers, also I forgot to radio the battleship fleet to relay literally anything at all, but it's fine, I wrote this report / article / opinion piece about my dashing courage for the newspapers, and I'll mail it before the battle autopsy commission can even be nominated, so my position should at least be safe.
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Jan 5, 2022 04:12
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SIGSEGV posted:I parked my faster, range-dictating, battlecruisers with their larger guns, that shoot further than those of the competition, into the effective range of the enemy battlecruisers, also I forgot to radio the battleship fleet to relay literally anything at all, but it's fine, I wrote this report / article / opinion piece about my dashing courage for the newspapers, and I'll mail it before the battle autopsy commission can even be nominated, so my position should at least be safe. Not only is your position safe, you are promoted to be in charge of the entire navy, and now you can order the report your predecessor had ordered that was highly critical of your battlecruiser parking destroyed, and instead commission a better report that was highly critical of the other guy who didn't make any mistakes in battleship parking.
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Jan 5, 2022 04:34
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That's a relief, now I can go home for a spell to see my my wonderful wife, my better half, as together we are a beautiful and perfect couple, the guiding light of perfect marriages, that radiates sunshine and puppies.
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Jan 5, 2022 04:43
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God the Beatty-hate is strong here. (but entirely justified, carry on)
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Jan 5, 2022 04:47
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To be honest, there's more than Beatty to blame, there's all the times a captain's strict obedience results in utterly stupid acts because the admiral should have said to act otherwise while the admiral is not there and / or not aware of the situation. The RN at the time was a little bit of a giant trash fire.
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Jan 5, 2022 05:06
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SIGSEGV posted:To be honest, there's more than Beatty to blame, there's all the times a captain's strict obedience results in utterly stupid acts because the admiral should have said to act otherwise while the admiral is not there and / or not aware of the situation. In their defence, the entirety of the world's military was a bit of a giant trash fire for WW1
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Jan 5, 2022 05:26
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Beatty was a godawful fleet commander, but there's a fair amount of agreement that he was a pretty crucial interwar First Sea Lord in terms of maintaining both the fleet itself, and the morale and discipline of the sailors serving.
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Jan 5, 2022 06:22
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Veloxyll posted:In their defence, the entirety of the world's military was a bit of a giant trash fire for WW1 While that is true, few navies had captains refuse to fire on enemies because the admiral wasn't there to give the order, while the admiral is not aware of any of this, while also not telling the admiral, while the admiral is not there, while, for example, in a position of superiority after winning at Jutland. But yeah, the armed forces of everything at the time had problems such as these, and it is hilarious and sad in retrospect, much like the state of modern military forces will be to the jellyfish archeologists after WW3.
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Jan 5, 2022 06:36
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SIGSEGV posted:To be honest, there's more than Beatty to blame, there's all the times a captain's strict obedience results in utterly stupid acts because the admiral should have said to act otherwise while the admiral is not there and / or not aware of the situation. Oh, it's not really a question of blame for me (though it's true there's plenty of blame to go around and Beatty gets a fair bit of it.) I just think the guy is kind of a self-serving rear end in a top hat.
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Jan 5, 2022 06:39
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SIGSEGV posted:While that is true, few navies had captains refuse to fire on enemies because the admiral wasn't there to give the order, while the admiral is not aware of any of this, while also not telling the admiral, while the admiral is not there, while, for example, in a position of superiority after winning at Jutland. it's a really interesting time because there are all these communication issues that start up due to technology - in an earlier era, that captain would basically be given broad pre-battle orders and to act as see fit at the moment, and have a lot of latitude for action. The admiral could not have (nor expect to have) have practical awareness of the battle space outside of what he and his staff could see, and there wouldn't have been much of an ability for an admiral to communicate tactical instructions with any kind of reliability or timeliness. However, with radio that opportunity exists and therefore it gets used as the admiral wants to exercise control - the upside in terms of command, control, and communication is that it's very likely that you suppress initiative of lower level officers since they now receive more specific time-sensitive orders and have even more immediate consequences for disobeying them because disobedience is easily uncovered. In absence of orders, you get inaction, and since highly specific situational orders can be issued instantly, you go away from broad orders that give captains a lot of latitude in how they fight that would perhaps discourage inaction.
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Jan 5, 2022 14:57
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You also had issues within the RN command structure that led to the sinking of HMS Victoria and the death of Vice Admiral Tryon. The instructed course has us ramming the Victoria, but we can't deviate from the instructed course!
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Jan 5, 2022 15:22
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That's the main issue really, pure obedience to orders despite them being not adapted to current circumstances. For example, we shall see something interesting in a ramming. Or respecting radio silence so well your scout seaplanes don't phone in spotting the enemy fleet, and then their tender doesn't phone it in when picking them up. And when Troubridge decided not to die horribly and uselessly he got poo poo thrown at him.
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Jan 5, 2022 15:47
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But that's the thing, back in Nelson's (pbuh) time, the orders HAD to give a high degree of latitude because there was no way for the giver of orders to know more than the man on the spot. Orders issued were like "Proceed with utmost dispatch to Corcyra and intercept a convoy of merchant vessels in the Ionian gulf. If not found by Date X, return to Malta" not like "maintain course 400 yards to port and then turn exactly the way I say when I say" - the latter really only happened on blockade duty in the era.
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Jan 5, 2022 16:01
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"if practicable" did an awful lot of work in the pre-wireless era. That said I can appreciate the challenges associated with controlling ships that are now able to fire at things dozens of kilometers away and are moving at 20+ knots in any direction they choose.
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Jan 5, 2022 16:05
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Basically it enabled micromanagement and repression of initiative and the RN went all in on it under the pretense of discipline being good, for unchecked human nature reasons. Nowadays tactical data links and whatnot are supposed to supply subordinate commanders with the awareness they need to more efficiently improvise and perform freehand objective centered tactics and therefore are probably going to be used to bully people down the chain of command for their ship being 12 meters off in the formation and so on, leadership is going to get more training designed by leadership and will include more acronyms, explanations about the moral degradation caused by putting things in pockets therefore putting wear and tear on uniforms, and "learnings units" about the wisdom of collective punishment.
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Jan 5, 2022 16:23
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same thing kind of happened with radio networks in Vietnam at the platoon level, i think it's kind of human nature for a highly hierarchical organization until they can unlearn things
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Jan 5, 2022 17:31
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Has any BB ever taken serious hits from a shore battery? USS Wisconsin took a 5" hit in Korea but the damage was minimal and the exchange did not go well at all for the shore battery. USS Texas took a couple of 9" shells at Cherbourg and one caused casualties and some damage. But have there been any BB/shore gun duels that resulted in real damage to the BB?
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Jan 5, 2022 17:50
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By actual shore batteries? Not as far as I'm aware of. By land-based artillery? Yes. Namely the Siege of Port Arthur during the Russo-Japanese War, where the Japanese dragged artillery into position around the port and bombarded it. They ended up sinking two (pre-dreadnaught) battleships and damaged another.
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Jan 5, 2022 17:59
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Shore batteries and artillery generally aren't going to sink major naval assets outside of some very exceptional circumstances. Not because they're incapable of winning a gun duel with one, but simply because the big and expensive boat will either not even try or rapidly GTFO out of the fight unless they significantly outgun the shore guns. Which, of course, is the real purpose of shore batteries: Keeping enemy ships away from whatever they're defending.
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Jan 5, 2022 18:35
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