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bewbies posted:"if practicable" did an awful lot of work in the pre-wireless era. This game really taught me how frustrating it can be as the admiral if your captains aren't quite as responsive as you'd like them to be. You start the battle in an advantageous position with your strategy all nicely laid out, all you need for your guys is to just steam ahead and shoot the enemy fleet to bits. But then your torpedo boats don't feel like launching their torps at the BB right next to them, while the other squadron launches them way too early at the wrong target and why is that cruiser doing evasive maneuvers the enemy is still ten kilometers away wait where are you going you're about to cross through the other squadron MOTHERFUCKER WHERE ARE YOU GOING TURN BACK AROUND AAAAAGH So yeah, when you're trying to coordinate a couple dozen ships and need to plan half an hour into the future just for simple maneuvers, it can get really tricky in a hurry.
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Jan 5, 2022 18:54
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 19:09 |
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The Occupation Museum in Oslo had what can be described as an extended touchdown dance exhibit about the sinking of the Blucher when I was there 21 years ago. Which, fair enough, they goddamn earned it.
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Jan 5, 2022 18:55
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Torpedoes did the heavy lifting on that one, though. Same with the Dardanelles - the Allies lost quite a few old pre-dreadnoughts but it was mostly due to mines.
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Jan 5, 2022 19:39
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Matchup #8: USS North Carolina (1941) vs Dunkerque (1937) USS North Carolina  Belt Armor: 12 inches Deck Armor: 7 inches Main Battery: 9x16 inch guns Speed: 28 kts North Carolina was essentially a mini-Iowa, arguably more useful ships than their younger cousins, the South Dakotas. They were a fine mix of speed, protection and firepower, though their speed was more in line with their contemporaries. They were built pretty specifically to show down the Japanese Navy in the Pacific, and in a crazy ironic twist, got to do exactly that: Washington’s evisceration of Kirishima was probably the most decisive gun battle in that entire theater. North Carolina slings heavyweight 16” shells, has good quality steel armor that is well placed, and enjoys top of the line fire control. She won’t be able to use her speed to dictate the engagement like Iowa might, but otherwise she’s largely comparable to her bigger cousin. Dunkerque  Belt Armor: 8.9 inches Deck Armor: 4.5 inches Main Battery: 8x13 inch guns Speed: 29.5 kts The French Navy was very into following rules, and so Dunkerque is maybe the best single example of a treaty battleship. She might not even really be a treaty battleship…she really falls somewhere between “big cruiser” and “we don’t have a name for that.” Dunkerques were built pretty specifically to show down with German and Italian heavy cruisers that were being built in the 1930s, and for this mission, she was well equipped. Ultimately, however, she sort of wound up being undergunned, underarmored, and a bit too slow to take her place with the big kids of the era. She’s a good example of how missing on requirements can lead to a fatally flawed end product. Still, she’s game enough, and she’s very pretty. I have a soft spot for French ships. The Battle  North Carolina’s big guns should be a significant overmatch for Dunkerque’s armor at all ranges, and Dunkerque’s small-ish main battery won’t be a huge threat to the well protected mini-Iowa. Dunk has a slight speed advantage but it isn’t likely she’ll be able to do much with it.  North Carolina hunts her prey.  I can’t prove it, but I think maybe 8 forward facing guns is the most efficient battleship armament.  North Carolina opens fire at over 30km. Note how steeply her barrels are elevated.  Dunk shoots right back. Those 13” guns have a lot of legs to them. Not too accurate at this range, but NC will have to deal with them.  NC scores the first hit, a penetration of Dunk’s deck just behind her #1 turret. Note the oil leaking out of the hole.  NC seems a bit unnerved that Dunk can actually hit her at this range. She turns away to extend the distance.  Dunk is game as hell for this one. She punches through NC’s deck amidships, and puts a hole in her stern. She’s no pushover.  CA?? Now come on, she may be small, but no need to be mean.  NC scores the first big hit of the match, but the damage is superficial. The main effect is it slows Dunk down a couple of knots…which as we will see, ends up being pretty important in how the rest of this plays out.  Dunk gets the fires put out and gets back to business. No serious damage from the big hit.  Dunk has run through half her ammo. She’s hit NC 16 times total, and our damage levels are almost the same. Tie ballgame, more or less.  After a few more salvos, Dunk ceases fire. She can’t afford to blow through her entire magazine on ineffectual long range shots. But, since taking the damage to her bow, she can no longer close the distance on NC.  And now…this. NC turns out to be a total coward. She can keep her distance from Dunk, but only by angling so severely that her rear turret alone can fire. She spends the next 40 MINUTES (in real time…game speed was sped up 5 times) slinging single salvos of 16 inch shells at max range. She hits Dunk a few times, causes no real damage, and then, after running out of ammo…just heads off into the mist. Dunk can’t believe it. She can’t catch NC, and the far bigger, more powerful, and more modern ship is just…running away. (after 45 minutes and NC being out of ammo I just said gently caress it and ended the battle. I spent most of the time reading about Jutland, because this was boring as gently caress) NOW THEN We must discuss what is to become of the Coward North Carolina. Since there wasn’t a clear winner and this contingency wasn’t discussed beforehand in the rules, we must go to the judges’ scorecards. First, to be fair to her, NC “won” the battle on damage. She inflicted about 4x as much punishment on Dunk as she took. But, she caused absolutely no critical damage…aside from being a few knots slower, Dunk is combat-ready. That said, this was not a performance worthy of the title “battleship.” NC just ran away. From a much smaller and ostensibly less-powerful opponent. As I see it, we have three possible choices: 1) NC wins in a decision. She did, after all, inflict far more damage. 2) Dunk wins in a decision. She stood tall as a battleship should, and chased her opponent from the field. 3) NC wins, but must prove herself worthy in BATTLESHIP CAULDRON OF DOOM. In this case, she faces 6 modernized French torpedo boats at a range of 10km, each capable of 50kts+ and armed with a shitload of Long Lance-type torpedoes. If she survives, she advances. If not, Dunk advances. So now, we must vote:  VOTE1. NC wins 2. Dunk wins 3. CAULDRON OF DOOM
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Jan 5, 2022 20:02
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Absolutely disgraceful. 2. Dunk wins and throw NC into the CAULDRON OF DOOM anyway just as a punishment!  KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Torpedoes did the heavy lifting on that one, though. Same with the Dardanelles - the Allies lost quite a few old pre-dreadnoughts but it was mostly due to mines. Which was in turn made possible by the presence of the shore artillery making it suicidal for minesweepers to go in and clear the minefield. Magni fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 20:02
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For reference, here is the LE MARS class French super torpedo boat. 51 kts top speed, and each of those four torpedo launchers holds five 24 inch compressed oxygen torpedoes. They also have a 20mm cannon on the bow, as I had to give them a "main gun."
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Jan 5, 2022 20:09
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3. CAULDRON OF DOOM
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Jan 5, 2022 20:09
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As funny as it is to see the reversal of national stereotypes, I really want to see the CAULDRON OF DOOM.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:11
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Theres no way NC survives the torpedo boats at 10km
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Jan 5, 2022 20:11
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Dunk wins. Ignomy for the Coward North Carolina 
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Jan 5, 2022 20:11
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2. Give Dunk the win, no second chances for cowards.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:12
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Dunk wins I've seen more than enough of 'super battleships' spending the entire goddamn scenario running away in this game already and it angers me. It is seriously one of the worst parts of the game's AI!
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Jan 5, 2022 20:12
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I mean, you could also run the match again. If the AI just keeps chickening out, you could make it a best-of-3 on technical wins ... 3. CAULDRON OF DOOM
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Jan 5, 2022 20:15
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bewbies posted:
I vote for Dunk winning, both because interesting French battleship I don't know much about, and the putrid, stinking cowardice on NC's part. PS> Run the CAULDRON OF DOOM regardless
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Jan 5, 2022 20:15
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Night10194 posted:I've seen more than enough of 'super battleships' spending the entire goddamn scenario running away in this game already and it angers me. It is seriously one of the worst parts of the game's AI! Yeah it is some kind of brain fart in the AI. I'm all for ships playing to their strengths but this was just stupid. For reference, if I see this kind of AI behavior again, I'm going to take over the ship and force a more intelligent engagement...for better or worse...
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Jan 5, 2022 20:16
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I want to give Dunkerque the victory (and establish a precedent thereby in case this happens again) for holding the field. I suggest we only fall back to hits scored in situations where both ships are rendered non-combat-effective or run out of ammo.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:17
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Cauldron of Doom. Not the fair way to decide it, but the awesome one.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:18
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Night10194 posted:Dunk wins For real, you'd think they're a World of Warships player.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:19
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I just wanna see anything "of doom" I have the option to see. #3: CAULDRON
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Jan 5, 2022 20:19
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BEHOLD THE CAULDRON OF DOOM!
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Jan 5, 2022 20:19
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Dunqerque should advance, obviously, but let's do it via Cauldron of Doom
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Jan 5, 2022 20:19
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Shameful performance by NC. I vote Dunk wins this round for holding the field and would agree with this for a future policy:Loxbourne posted:I suggest we only fall back to hits scored in situations where both ships are rendered non-combat-effective or run out of ammo.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:22
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Number 3, because satisfaction demands it.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:24
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Magni posted:Absolutely disgraceful. this dunk was the clear winner because she held the battlefield at the end and was still capable of fighting
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Jan 5, 2022 20:27
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Dunkirk Wins and also toss that coward into the cauldron!
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Jan 5, 2022 20:29
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Dunq wins for holding the field
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Jan 5, 2022 20:29
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Dunk wins, but have the NC face DOOM anyway, as a lesson and warning to the other contestants.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:30
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Dunk should get the win, but show the DOOM gauntlet.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:31
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The North Carolina is a beautiful ship and I enjoyed visiting it in Wilmington. But after such a shameful display, I'm inclined to disqualify NC. However, I can't resist the CAULDRON OF DOOM.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:33
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Cauldron!
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Jan 5, 2022 20:42
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I am laughing extremely hard at this result. IMO Is there an option for a rematch? Maybe give the Dunkerque a handicap? I'd hate to see a beautiful contender laid low by the AI.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:48
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Cauldron though I'd probably have re-run the match personally
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Jan 5, 2022 20:49
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Torpedoes did the heavy lifting on that one, though. Same with the Dardanelles - the Allies lost quite a few old pre-dreadnoughts but it was mostly due to mines. That's still the shore battery concept though, torps and mines protect from things with big guns getting in good range and angle to fire and the guns can both punish minesweepers and get in the business of whatever approaches as well. When I saw the slowdown, I thought that the NC was just gonna keep range and do a murder, that was amazing. While I think that the Dunk won, I want 3 The Cauldron Of Doom.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:51
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 Unleash the CAULDRON OF DOOM! Saint Celestine posted:Theres no way NC survives the torpedo boats at 10km Pierzak fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 20:52
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Go for the Cauldron! Though a rematch would also be acceptable.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:57
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Magni posted:Absolutely disgraceful. Agree with this vote. As for the second, sure, it was all part of integrated shore defenses (although somewhat hastily thrown together in the Dardanelles) but the question was gunfire from shore batteries inflicting serious damage directly on battleships, which did not happen. Dardanelles was kind of unique in terms of restriction of movement and ability to use the current to float things downstream.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:58
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My vote is for a straight rematch. Though the Cauldron of Doom would be very funny.
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Jan 5, 2022 21:01
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Dunk wins but the Cauldron of Doom happens because it's the kind of freak fight I expect from this thread
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Jan 5, 2022 21:04
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2. Dunc clearly won this The win condition is to destroy the enemy, not preserve your own forces. The French captain occupied the field and attempted to engage the enemy. The American captain spent the entire engagement trying to avoid avoid battle against an inferior opponent. If this engagement had actually happened the American captain would be court martialed for cowardice. He allowed an inferior opponent to survive when he could have forced the issue at any time.
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Jan 5, 2022 21:16
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 19:09 |
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CAULDRON CAULDRON CAULDRON
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Jan 5, 2022 21:45
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