US CE First Quarter '22 Reboot: There is no Current Events, only Voting.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > US CE First Quarter '22 Reboot: There is no Current Events, only Voting.

«‹›268 »

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Oracle posted:

Maybe they were aiming to give him a rage-induced heart attack and solve the problem that way, because I would not want to be a vase/tv remote/flatscreen in Mar-A-Lago right now.

Given Garland's speech yesterday(?) that basically "Both Sides" political violence, I wonder what Biden going this far to bad actually will mean other than maybe to try to appease a very upset Dem voting base.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 16:32

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 8, 2024 13:23

Presto: Nov 22, 2002; Keep calm and Harry on.

the_steve posted:

Doing anything at all. Could have forgiven student loan debt, enforced an actual lockdown for the pandemic, more stimulus checks.

OK on the first one, not sure he has the authority to do the second one, and he definitely can't unilaterally do the 3rd one.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 16:32

eviltastic: Feb 8, 2004; Fan of Britches

Space Cadet Omoly posted:

My main worry with this is that the AI will inevitably get bored with doing things the correct way and start loving with us for fun. Youtube is filled with videos' of people playing sim games who decided "What if I caused problems on purpose for shits and giggles?" and I get the feeling that any AI we create in our image will go down a similar path if given unlimited power.

I could easily see our new AI God turning our public transportation system into Mr. Bones Wild Ride:

Or recreating a dystopian soceity out of a YA novel to see how that would play out:

Or unleashing some sort of "Final Pam" upon us:
[Snipped vids]

Basically I'm imagining a "I have No Mouth and Yet I must Scream" scenario. The only difference is what's being done to us isn't done out of hate, it's done out of the sheer joy born from creation and chaos.

On the other end of it, we�ve also got the example of how horrific a system you can wind up with if you just dispassionately optimize for a number, as demonstrated by the guy who crammed six million sims into a sc3k map.

quote:

Technically, no one is leaving or coming into the city. Population growth is stagnant. Sims don't need to travel long distances, because their workplace is just within walking distance. In fact they do not even need to leave their own block. Wherever they go it's like going to the same place.

There are a lot of other problems in the city hidden under the illusion of order and greatness--suffocating air pollution, high unemployment, no fire stations, schools, or hospitals, a regimented lifestyle--this is the price that these sims pay for living in the city with the highest population. It's a sick and twisted goal to strive towards. The ironic thing about it is the sims in Magnasanti tolerate it. They don't rebel, or cause revolutions and social chaos. No one considers challenging the system by physical means since a hyper-efficient police state keeps them in line. They have all been successfully dumbed down, sickened with poor health, enslaved and mind-controlled just enough to keep this system going for thousands of years. 50,000 years to be exact. They are all imprisoned in space and time.

If horrific sim stuff is your bag, the video is worth a watch.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/4w4kg3/the-totalitarian-buddhist-who-beat-sim-city/

# ? Jan 6, 2022 16:33

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

Motto posted:

The virginia takeaway is that they did too much about covid and that biden should put the screws to these dang lazy teachers.

It seems like McAuliffe ran a pretty bad campaign (although I didn't follow it closely, really) and didn�t deal with the electorate�s concerns about schools very well. Even if some of them were just irredeemable racists there were a lot of people he could�ve persuaded but didn�t. And the national Dems didn't give him much help.

There is a lot to learn from that election that Democrats can use to mitigate losses in '22, but we'll see if they picked up on any of it. (Mostly, don't say that parents shouldn't have control over any aspect of their children's lives, no matter how much "sense" it makes when you're saying it.)

Still, I mean, I think he would�ve had to done have done great to avoid the nearly-inevitable backlash against the party in the White House, just as Biden and Congress would�ve had to to avoid losing one or both houses in �22. In 2009 the Democrats lost the VA governors� seat (previously held by Tim Kaine) by 17 points, a year after Obama had flipped the state.

Some people vote with the following flow chart: �Am I happy? No? What party is the president from? Yeah I�m gonna vote for the other one.�

CommieGIR posted:

Given Garland's speech yesterday(?) that basically "Both Sides" political violence, I wonder what Biden going this far to bad actually will mean other than maybe to try to appease a very upset Dem voting base.

Yeah, it was the most obvious �this is not politically motivated, which I have to specifically point out because I am about to prosecute a bunch of people with extremely similar right-wing politics� rear end-covering fig-leaf ever.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 16:36

Good Soldier Svejk: Jul 5, 2010

Mellow Seas posted:

It seems like McAuliffe ran a pretty bad campaign (although I didn't follow it closely, really) and didn�t deal with the electorate�s concerns about schools very well. Even if some of them were just irredeemable racists there were a lot of people he could�ve persuaded but didn�t. And the national Dems didn't give him much help.

There is a lot to learn from that election that Democrats can use to mitigate losses in '22, but we'll see if they picked up on any of it. (Mostly, don't say that parents shouldn't have control over any aspect of their children's lives, no matter how much "sense" it makes when you're saying it.)

NoVA voter here and McAuliffe's campaign was hilariously and uniquely terrible. His messaging was almost exclusively "gently caress Donald Trump vote for me".
Not a single policy to speak of on his mailers or campaign commercials until like the very last week and by then it was too little too late. For some reason he didn't even routinely mention that he held the office before our tout what he did when he was in it. If you didn't already know who he was you were a bit adrift in the sea of his messaging.

He ran a very lazy race that seemed to presuppose his victory because of his party affiliation and still nearly won but Youngkin ran on lower taxes and"make communities safe" and various school dogwhistles enough to sway the Trump voters while not going so insanely racist to alienate the so-called moderates (if they can be said to exist)

# ? Jan 6, 2022 16:58

Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

Mellow Seas posted:

Some people vote with the following flow chart: �Am I happy? No? What party is the president from? Yeah I�m gonna vote for the other one.�

A consequence of this is that "Actively make things worse when you're not in power" is a successful opposition strategy, if you're comfortable with people being distrustful of government and pessimistic about the overall direction of the nation. As well as with hurting people you want to vote for you, of course. Which is why for Republicans that part is an absolute win-win. And also core to why successful Republican strategies can't be reliably imitated by the left.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:01

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

Good Soldier Svejk posted:

NoVA voter here and McAuliffe's campaign was hilariously and uniquely terrible. His messaging was almost exclusively "gently caress Donald Trump vote for me".

And it worked so well that Democratic strategists are amping it up for the midterms.

quote:

Some top Democratic operatives are terrified that their down-ballot candidates are responding too timidly to the threat of former President Donald Trump using this year's midterm elections to launch a return to the White House, and they've formed a new group to raise the alarm.

The super PAC, whose creation was shared first with CNN, doesn't have a subtle name: Stop Him Now.

Its aim is calling attention to Republican candidates' ties to Trump and his efforts to subvert the 2020 election, as well as how GOP wins up and down the ballot this year could help further undermine systems designed to keep elections fair and democratic. Trump has signaled he wants Republican victories to lay the groundwork for another presidential bid, and these Democrats think their party needs to start talking about that a lot more -- and quickly.

***

"We were alarmed by the growing conventional wisdom in our party that we should stop talking about Trump -- alarmed by that and what was happening to our country," said Mandy Grunwald, a longtime Democratic consultant who spent years as an adviser to both Bill and Hillary Clinton, among many other high-level Democrats.

Grunwald formed the group with Saul Shorr, another veteran Democratic consultant with a huge roster of top clients, including Terry McAuliffe, the Democratic nominee in last year's Virginia governor's race. Both tend to be behind-the-scenes players, and they say their public involvement in Stop Him Now reflects just how committed they are to the idea.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:03

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Willa Rogers posted:

And it worked so well that Democratic strategists are amping it up for the midterms.

"Oh man, they hate this Trump guy so much they voted for the GOP candidate! We should double down" - Dem strategists

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:09

Nucleic Acids: Apr 10, 2007; Can't post for 7 days!

CommieGIR posted:

"Oh man, they hate this Trump guy so much they voted for the GOP candidate! We should double down" - Dem strategists

It really does not matter to those people if Democrats win or lose, it makes no difference in terms of their future employment.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:14

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Nucleic Acids posted:

It really does not matter to those people if Democrats win or lose, it makes no difference in terms of their future employment.

It matters to them but on the same level as, say, winning a board game.

It's not like anyone important will be affected, after all.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:17

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

I don't know anything about AI and don't pretend to, but all of the quantum computing and AI experts think that the idea that AI will enslave humanity is pop-science, hurts research, and distracts from the real problems of AI.

This is what the head of Robotics Ethics and Quantum Computing at MIT said about it recently:

quote:

WILL ROBOTS TAKE OVER? THE TRUE PROBLEMS IN AI AND ROBOTICS

With a recent surge of interest in artificial intelligence and robotics, the media is speculating about our future with robots, asking "Will Robots Steal Your Job?" warning "The Robots are Coming, Prepare for Trouble," and begging "Welcome, Robot Overlords. Please Don't Fire Us?"

What these headlines miss is that robots don't make these decisions � humans do. As we design, build, and integrate robots and AI into our workplaces and society at large, we need to set aside our science fictional ideas of robot takeovers. Because pointing our fingers at robots obscures the real problem: us.

The belief that technology will inevitably automate away all jobs is persistent, but it isn't the only way for us to approach labor. Pursuing the cost-cutting elimination of human workers is a choice, and this choice is short-sighted. Instead of trying to automate away our warehouse employees, pizza delivery drivers, paralegals, and healthcare personnel, companies should be asking a different question: how can we use technology to help people do a better job?

Robots and AI perform best when we design them to be supplemental tools rather than substitute humans, because our intelligence and skillsets are very different. Technology outpaces us in a lot of ways: even a simple calculator is better at doing math. Today's AI can beat humans at games like chess, go, and Jeopardy. Our machines can do things we can't: sense and identify explosives, lift heavy metal beams, sort medications 24 hours a day, and recognize patterns in data we would never see on our own.

AI and humans, complementary and not exclusive

At the same time, humans also outpace machines. If you've tried to have a conversation with your phone's voice assistant lately, you may have noticed that our virtual helpers are disappointing conversationalists, at best. Even my toddler vastly outperforms robots on understanding context and concepts, not to mention identifying and picking up random objects or keeping his balance on two legs. Despite many decades of research and development, we haven't even been able to fully automate the car manufacturing process. The reason is that humans, with their adaptive intelligence, are much better than machines at certain things.

Is it just a matter of time and computing power before we can create a quasi-human? Maybe, although we are not anywhere close. But more importantly, the intelligence we're developing right now works differently from our own, and that's a good thing. Our goal shouldn't be to recreate human intelligence and skill in the far-away future. Why recreate what we already have, when we can purposely create something new?

Our belief that robots can and should replace us obscures the massive potential of making robotics and AI supplemental. We could be building and integrating these technologies with the explicit goal of boosting people's productivity, or transforming their roles into something less rote and more fulfilling, instead of just trying to automate away their existing tasks. When we think outside of the box on how to design and use robots to work alongside people, we will see much longer-term gains. Because where this technology truly shines isn't as a human replacement, but as a partner in what we're trying to achieve.

When we set aside our self-fulfilling predictions of robot takeovers, we start to see that we have choices, and that these choices don't end in the workplace. We have choices about the nature of people's jobs, but also about the corporate incentives we set in our broader economic and political systems. Instead of sticking to our default of viewing technology as neutral, we should also be choosing to make our design processes more inclusive, to ensure that what we build serves the interests of all people, instead of just the narrow demographics of its current creators.

We also have the choice � and the responsibility � to be more thoughtful about where it's not appropriate to use automated technologies. Understanding the strengths and limitations of robotics and AI helps us resist the current trend to apply this technology everywhere, whether in automated weapon systems, facial recognition cameras, hiring decisions, or in the criminal justice system. Not only are the outcomes often flawed and harmful, but using automated technology in these contexts also lets companies, politicians, and individuals point their fingers at the robots' decisions, when we humans are the ones who should be taking responsibility.

Our problem isn't that robots will take over, our problem is that we assume they will. So let's stop blaming the robots in our headlines. Let's be clear-eyed about the fact that robots and AI are human-made tools, and that they will have an impact on people's jobs and lives within larger, human-driven choices and systems. Instead of giving the robots agency, let's take that agency back. After all, it's not up to technology to shape the future �it's up to us.

https://www.iberdrola.com/shapes-en/kate-darling-robotics-artificial-intelligence-problems

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jan 6, 2022

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:22

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

How badly or how well are the Biden administration's 1/6 speeches going? I don't have time to watch.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:23

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

Eric Cantonese posted:

How badly or how well are the Biden administration's 1/6 speeches going? I don't have time to watch.

He was either coughing & bumbling thru the speech, or paving the way for the eradication of the Republican party; depends who you ask.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:25

Srice: Sep 11, 2011

CommieGIR posted:

"Oh man, they hate this Trump guy so much they voted for the GOP candidate! We should double down" - Dem strategists

They spent years painting Trump as a completely unique evil so it definitely isn't gonna work when they suddenly say hey actually every GOP candidate is literally the same as Trump.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:25

Kanos: Sep 6, 2006; was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Oracle posted:

The word 'lie' is almost never used among politicians, like ever. Its that whole 'decorum' thing. You can accuse your opponent of misrepresenting the truth, of mendacity, of other synonyms the vast majority of the American people don't know the meaning of, but to outright call something a bald faced lie is pretty drat unheard of.

That Biden used it repeatedly, basically called him out and accused of him of multiple actionable crimes is a huge, huge, HUGE deal and pretty unprecedented. People who love to scream about liberals love of decorum uber alles should be sitting up and taking note right now, because this is a Big Deal(tm) and hopefully means they've got some serious evidence on Trump because this is libel level accusations.

Elected, currently serving politicians in Congress have been accusing Trump of lying in interviews on national news for like the last year and a half. The canonized mass media name for Trump whining about the 2020 election being stolen is "The Big Lie".

I guess it might be new for Biden himself to go up there and say it, but it's hardly some kind of tectonic shift in the language dems have been using about Trump.

I've been hearing about how we're totally gonna get that rascally Trump aaaaany day now, you just wait, for the past three years. I'll believe that this is something more than hot wind to attempt to distract from Biden's administration failing all of its present policy goals and dropping into the approval crapper when something actually happens.

Srice posted:

They spent years painting Trump as a completely unique evil so it definitely isn't gonna work when they suddenly say hey actually every GOP candidate is literally the same as Trump.

Plus the whole "we did it, we beat Trump, the beast is slain, now finally normalcy and respect can return to our government!" turned out to be a giant mound of bullshit.

Kanos fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jan 6, 2022

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:38

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Majorian posted:

https://twitter.com/thedailybeast/status/1478793373368602625

LMAO at how much of Republicans wailing about voter fraud continues to prove to be so much projection.

This tells me they really do believe it, they believe so hard that millions of people are going from place to place casting a dozen votes each without anyone checking ID that they think they can easily do it themselves and nope turns out it's very very easy to check a database and see one person vote twice.

Majorian posted:

But more broadly speaking, this seems like the sort of thing that Biden and the Democratic leadership really should be shouting about from the bully pulpit, especially if they want to at least seem like they're interested in paying more than lip service to protecting voter rights. The fact that they haven't made "These fuckers are trying to take away your right to vote, while committing voter fraud themselves!" a central part of the party's messaging bodes ill for November.

You would think, but in my experience the take-away from these kinds of stories isn't "Republicans are committing all this voter fraud, we need to vote for Democrats", but "voter fraud is out of control, Republicans are right the system is broken we need voter ID now!" There seems to be this perverse feedback effect where the people who are undermining confidence in the system profit from it because as the public loses confidence in government they gravitate to the anti-government people. Although possibly this is just because the GOP have successfully marketed themselves as the anti-establishment bomb-throwers (despite representing the wealthiest most powerful interests of the status quo), while the Democrats consciously pose as the defenders of the system and successfully crushed or co-opted all establishment critiques on the left. If you've lost confidence in the system where else are you gonna go, to Bernie Sanders, the guy who told you to vote for his good friend Joe Biden?

I doubt that trying to become the real anti-voter-fraud party is going to fix this. I mean for one thing, Democrats have a trifecta right now, they could ban Republicans' underhanded tactics any time they please by passing federal legislation, and they don't. So how serious can they come across really, they told us they'd pass voting rights if we voted in 2020, we did, and now they're still dangling it in front of us like a carrot on a stick "well if ya really want it you gotta VOTE for us again"

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:39

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

VitalSigns posted:

I doubt that trying to become the real anti-voter-fraud party is going to fix this. I mean for one thing, Democrats have a trifecta right now, they could ban Republicans' underhanded tactics any time they please by passing federal legislation, and they don't. So how serious can they come across really, they told us they'd pass voting rights if we voted in 2020, we did, and now they're still dangling it in front of us like a carrot on a stick "well if ya really want it you gotta VOTE for us again"

As you know very well, 49 of them could be as serious as humanly possible and it wouldn't matter. Thinking of "the Democrats" as a monolith is useless, whether you think that means they're all good or all bad.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:42

Aztec Galactus: Sep 12, 2002

Eric Cantonese posted:

How badly or how well are the Biden administration's 1/6 speeches going? I don't have time to watch.

I think the better question is does anyone care? People talking itt about how owned Trump must feel when I'm not certain he even knows Biden gave a speech.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:44

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

Dubar posted:

I think the better question is does anyone care? People talking itt about how owned Trump must feel when I'm not certain he even knows Biden gave a speech.

Really? I feel like everyone in this thread just dunks on Biden constantly and talks about how stupid and ineffective Democrats are.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:46

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

Dubar posted:

I think the better question is does anyone care? People talking itt about how owned Trump must feel when I'm not certain he even knows Biden gave a speech.

I bet he watched it. I think Donald Trump is very compelled by anything on TV that's about Donald Trump, and is probably pretty tired of it not being "everything".

Eric Cantonese posted:

Really? I feel like everyone in this thread just dunks on Biden constantly and talks about how stupid and ineffective Democrats are.

The ratio of the word "Biden" to the word "Trump" in the GE thread was like 500:1

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:47

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Dubar posted:

I think the better question is does anyone care? People talking itt about how owned Trump must feel when I'm not certain he even knows Biden gave a speech.

It was stronger than his usual speech, but nothing that anybody doesn't already know.

Nobody really cares.

Trump does know, because he has released two ranting public statements during the speech referencing it.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:48

Fister Roboto: Feb 21, 2008

Oracle posted:

The word 'lie' is almost never used among politicians, like ever. Its that whole 'decorum' thing. You can accuse your opponent of misrepresenting the truth, of mendacity, of other synonyms the vast majority of the American people don't know the meaning of, but to outright call something a bald faced lie is pretty drat unheard of.

That Biden used it repeatedly, basically called him out and accused of him of multiple actionable crimes is a huge, huge, HUGE deal and pretty unprecedented. People who love to scream about liberals love of decorum uber alles should be sitting up and taking note right now, because this is a Big Deal(tm) and hopefully means they've got some serious evidence on Trump because this is libel level accusations.

It's still just talk. Let me know when they actually do something. If there are multiple actionable crimes, then why hasn't Trump been charged with anything yet, a whole year later? The Dems completely failed to seize the momentum.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:56

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Mellow Seas posted:

As you know very well, 49 of them could be as serious as humanly possible and it wouldn't matter. Thinking of "the Democrats" as a monolith is useless, whether you think that means they're all good or all bad.

Yes I know that very well, but I don't think it changes anything about the consequences this is going to have for the party.

If anything pointing this out just reinforces that the system is fundamentally broken and voting for the pro-system Democrats isn't going to fix anything. If a Senate majority can't pass a law that they all (50+1 of them) say they support, because they're beholden to a rule that says a majority isn't enough, then how is voting for a Democratic majority going to fix anything.

It isn't, obviously. I don't think it's a problem you can overcome with messaging. What do you tell people:
"Vote for us to control congress so we can protect your right to vote"
"You control congress right now and it hasn't protected me"
"Yeah but the filibuster we need 60 seats then we can do it"
"You can't get 60 seats, you aren't electable in enough states"
"We're electable if you vote for us!"
"No you aren't but fine, you had 60 seats in 2009 and no voter protections came out of that"
"We had too many blue dogs it's their fault"
"You have those now!"
"Yes that's why you need to vote for more Democrats to cancel out the blue dogs siding with Republicans"
"But the Democrat running my state is a blue dog and you backed him in the primary"
"Because they're the only ones who can win!"
etc

VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Jan 6, 2022

# ? Jan 6, 2022 17:57

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

Kanos posted:

Elected, currently serving politicians in Congress have been accusing Trump of lying in interviews on national news for like the last year and a half. The canonized mass media name for Trump whining about the 2020 election being stolen is "The Big Lie".

I guess it might be new for Biden himself to go up there and say it, but it's hardly some kind of tectonic shift in the language dems have been using about Trump.

I've been hearing about how we're totally gonna get that rascally Trump aaaaany day now, you just wait, for the past three years. I'll believe that this is something more than hot wind to attempt to distract from Biden's administration failing all of its present policy goals and dropping into the approval crapper when something actually happens.

Plus the whole "we did it, we beat Trump, the beast is slain, now finally normalcy and respect can return to our government!" turned out to be a giant mound of bullshit.

Yeah; if the Trump-slaying were working, Trump & Biden wouldn't be tied in current approval ratings and as 2024 choices for president.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:06

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

VitalSigns posted:

Yes I know that very well, but I don't think it changes anything about the consequences this is going to have for the party.

If anything pointing this out just reinforces that the system is fundamentally broken and voting for the pro-system Democrats isn't going to fix anything. If a Senate majority can't pass a law that they all (50+1 of them) say they support, because they're beholden to a rule that says a majority isn't enough, then how is voting for a Democratic majority going to fix anything.

I mean, that's one way to look at it, and certainly how a lot of people are going to look at it. I think they would've gotten more done by now if they hadn't blown three or four Senate races - gotten reconciliation through and made a filibuster carveout for voting rights. But yeah - it's a difficult case to make because they have nominally had a majority and those things haven't happened. Throw that in with the headwinds a party in their position faces and it looks really bad, and who knows when they'll even have a majority again.

I do think that whoever the President was right now, they would be massively unpopular. I don't know how to deal with the fact that you can't hold power in America without being unpopular. How do you build anything to last?

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:10

Bel Shazar: Sep 14, 2012

Mellow Seas posted:

Throw that in with the headwinds a party in their position faces and it looks really bad, and who knows when they'll even have a majority again.

Inshallah they never will and the thrashing they've set themselves up for breaks their back. Waste of a party.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:18

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Mellow Seas posted:

I do think that whoever the President was right now, they would be massively unpopular. I don't know how to deal with the fact that you can't hold power in America without being unpopular. How do you build anything to last?

You can. You just have to become President during a huge economic recovery following a huge recession.

With the rise of partisanship, you are never going to get the 70+% approval ratings that Reagan, Ike, JFK, FDR, and other Presidents had. You're always going to have a soft cap of 55-59% at the very best. But, it isn't impossible to hold power and be popular (if popular is defined as "consistently several points above 50%").

You build stuff to last by passing things that are managed by an executive agency and funded through a dedicated revenue source, so it is hard to get rid of. Then, once it is there for a while, it becomes harder and harder to remove. Or for social issues, you just push through something and either society is already there or is catching up and it becomes less of a political issue.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:19

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Mellow Seas posted:

I mean, that's one way to look at it, and certainly how a lot of people are going to look at it. I think they would've gotten more done by now if they hadn't blown three or four Senate races - gotten reconciliation through and made a filibuster carveout for voting rights. But yeah - it's a difficult case to make because they have nominally had a majority and those things haven't happened. Throw that in with the headwinds a party in their position faces and it looks really bad, and who knows when they'll even have a majority again.

Yeah that's what I'm saying, I think these defenses aren't substitutes for action and they're not going to convince anyone to have confidence in the Democrats.

You can convince me that I might as well VBNMW but it won't matter, I live in a gerrymandered deep blue district in a red state with no senate election this year, my vote will have no effect on the midterms thanks to state Republicans and our aristocratic constitution.

Mellow Seas posted:

I do think that whoever the President was right now, they would be massively unpopular. I don't know how to deal with the fact that you can't hold power in America without being unpopular. How do you build anything to last?

One of the things I said a few times last year was how shocked I was that Trump took the stupidest approach to covid possible which was guaranteed to piss off everyone outside of his base, because his dipshit son-in-law made the brain dead prediction that covid would stay magically confined to New York City and LA and just kill a bunch of Democrats anyway. I still believe Trump could have cruised to reelection if he'd followed Bush's post-9/11 strategy. Take a disaster that was clearly and obviously exacerbated by his own unpreparedness and sloth, and rally the country around it, become a wartime leader, reassure everyone that a strong decisive statesman was in control. Instead he bumbled around, said it would be gone by Easter, asked if we could inject disinfectants into people, you know the rest.

Biden had that opportunity too and completely squandered it in the same way. He had sky high approval ratings last year and everyone hoped finally the adults were in charge and we were gonna get serious, and now...this. It's no wonder he's unpopular and I don't think it's inherent to the presidency, I think it's the natural and obvious result of him totally shirking leadership in a crisis and telling everyone that the help is over and it's time to suck it up and get back to work Jack!

VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Jan 6, 2022

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:23

Angry_Ed: Mar 30, 2010; Grimey Drawer

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

You build stuff to last by passing things that are managed by an executive agency and funded through a dedicated revenue source, so it is hard to get rid of.

This can be circumvented by firing everyone or just refusing to replace people who leave, overloading things into collapse and allowimg detractors to go "see? It doesn't work"

Bel Shazar posted:

Inshallah they never will and the thrashing they've set themselves up for breaks their back. Waste of a party.

I'm curious as to why you think a permanent Republican majority is a good outcome

Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Jan 6, 2022

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:25

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Angry_Ed posted:

This can be circumvented by firing everyone or just refusing to replace people who leave, overloading things into collapse and allowimg detractors to go "see? It doesn't work"

It's not that easy. Well not always.

Every time they try to gently caress with social security or medicare people get so pissed they back down. They've been able to chip away at it a bit, and add some grifts for their industry friends on top of medicare, but those programs have endured.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:29

haveblue: Aug 15, 2005; Toilet Rascal

Angry_Ed posted:

This can be circumvented by firing everyone or just refusing to replace people who leave, overloading things into collapse and allowimg detractors to go "see? It doesn't work"

This takes decades and by the time you've done significant damage to it it becomes a fixture of America and it's no longer politically feasible to kill it entirely

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:30

Bel Shazar: Sep 14, 2012

Angry_Ed posted:

This can be circumvented by firing everyone or just refusing to replace people who leave, overloading things into collapse and allowimg detractors to go "see? It doesn't work"

I'm curious as to why you think a permanent Republican majority is a good outcome

It isn't, and i would love to see that party self destruct as well. Regardless, the Democrats are a waste and deserve nothing but scorn and derision until they vanish into the history books.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:31

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

Bel Shazar posted:

It isn't, and i would love to see that party self destruct as well. Regardless, the Democrats are a waste and deserve nothing but scorn and derision until they vanish into the history books.

Both parties kind of are self-destructing since 2015 but it's happening slowly and we'll probably end up keeping the same names and calling it a "realignment".

Pelosi's retirement could speed things up, although they'll probably end up selecting a direct protege of hers and missing an opportunity to make a real change. (Any ascendant AOCs want to primary Hakeem Jeffries???) I am willing to give Manchin and Sinema full "credit" for blocking Biden's strategy, but why was there no other strategy? I wasn't a huge fan of Dem leadership before the 117th, but I'm even less so now.

Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Jan 6, 2022

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:33

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Bel Shazar posted:

It isn't, and i would love to see that party self destruct as well. Regardless, the Democrats are a waste and deserve nothing but scorn and derision until they vanish into the history books.

While the Dems are a poo poo party, and are doing poo poo tactics, the solution is probably not "You just gotta hand it to em" by letting the GOP having an electoral majority by encouraging less voting. And given that third parties are not likely to replace any of the major two parties anytime soon without enforcing ranked choice voting across the country, what do you suggest we do in the meantime?

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:33

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Oracle posted:

The word 'lie' is almost never used among politicians, like ever. Its that whole 'decorum' thing. You can accuse your opponent of misrepresenting the truth, of mendacity, of other synonyms the vast majority of the American people don't know the meaning of, but to outright call something a bald faced lie is pretty drat unheard of.

That Biden used it repeatedly, basically called him out and accused of him of multiple actionable crimes is a huge, huge, HUGE deal and pretty unprecedented. People who love to scream about liberals love of decorum uber alles should be sitting up and taking note right now, because this is a Big Deal(tm) and hopefully means they've got some serious evidence on Trump because this is libel level accusations.

What? It�s not a huge deal for politicians to call each other liars at all. Happens constantly. What convinced you it doesn�t and that it matters?

https://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/09/09/cnn-confirms-rep-wilson-the-congressional-heckler/

https://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/04/ted-cruz-mitch-mcconnell-liar-221955

Don�t hold your breath.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:36

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

If the Whigs collapse the Democratic-Republicans will rule America as a one-party state until the end of time, you don't want that to happen do you

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:36

Judakel: Jul 29, 2004; Can't post for 9 years!

Good Soldier Svejk posted:

NoVA voter here and McAuliffe's campaign was hilariously and uniquely terrible. His messaging was almost exclusively "gently caress Donald Trump vote for me".
Not a single policy to speak of on his mailers or campaign commercials until like the very last week and by then it was too little too late. For some reason he didn't even routinely mention that he held the office before our tout what he did when he was in it. If you didn't already know who he was you were a bit adrift in the sea of his messaging.

He ran a very lazy race that seemed to presuppose his victory because of his party affiliation and still nearly won but Youngkin ran on lower taxes and"make communities safe" and various school dogwhistles enough to sway the Trump voters while not going so insanely racist to alienate the so-called moderates (if they can be said to exist)

It's wild to me that some PAC was started to try and tie 2022 to Trump in 2024 and using Virginia as a warning when I distinctly remember Terry celebrating after Trump was baited into giving a virtual rally in Virginia.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:38

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

VitalSigns posted:

Biden had that opportunity too and completely squandered it in the same way. He had sky high approval ratings last year and everyone hoped finally the adults were in charge and we were gonna get serious, and now...this. It's no wonder he's unpopular and I don't think it's inherent to the presidency, I think it's the natural and obvious result of him totally shirking leadership in a crisis and telling everyone that the help is over and it's time to suck it up and get back to work Jack!

One of the most toxic legacies of the liberal consultant class is its continuing reliance on form over substance & PR over actuating. The whole student-loan debacle is a good example, since the WH was saying restoration of payments = covid is over; same with schools opening up.

It didn't even originate with the liberal consultant class; Karl Rove was talking about creating his party's own realities two decades ago. But, unlike the Democrats, the Republicans have realized that voters are often inclined to choose authentic boors over inauthentic bores.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:38

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

CommieGIR posted:

While the Dems are a poo poo party, and are doing poo poo tactics, the solution is probably not "You just gotta hand it to em" by letting the GOP having an electoral majority by encouraging less voting. And given that third parties are not likely to replace any of the major two parties anytime soon without enforcing ranked choice voting across the country, what do you suggest we do in the meantime?

You will be shocked to learn that the collapse of the 2nd party in a two-party system results in a new second party.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:41

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 8, 2024 13:23

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

VitalSigns posted:

If the Whigs collapse the Democratic-Republicans will rule America as a one-party state until the end of time, you don't want that to happen do you

Well, the collapse of the Whigs did lead to a war that killed like 5% of the country, but it also freed like 14% of the country from slavery, so in conclusion the death of major US political parties is a land of contrasts.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:42

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > US CE First Quarter '22 Reboot: There is no Current Events, only Voting.

«‹›268 »