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Ceebees posted:This is still absurd, but at least it isn't the stem-to-stern centerline mounts that gave me existential boat terror. how is adding an extra wide deck above the strength deck to fit the torpedo armament of an entire IJN heavy cruiser division on a ship displacing half as much as a single Mogami at all reasonable? over half the length of the ship is occupied by this ridiculous torpedo launcher warehouse. its like if the IJN were orks.
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Jan 6, 2022 03:07
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To be clear, the danger of oxygen torpedoes is that they're far more likely to catch fire and set off their warheads, not that the oxygen itself adds much to the explosion (it mostly just burns). So when you see the shots of damage to various heavy cruisers due to a torpedo rack of Long Lances exploding, it's because the ~4300 pounds of high explosives was set off and exploded. And just to put the amount we're dealing with into context, Kitakami with a full torpedo load would be carrying ~65,000 pounds of high explosive in the warheads. And an explosion onboard would likely set them off sequentially, rather than all at once, due to them being spread out and in separate launchers. It'd still be a monstrous explosion, but, well.... Something like this: Liberty Ship USS John Burke was likely carrying MILLIONS of pounds of explosives - potentially up to 20 million pounds, though likely notably less than that for various reasons. Still, even accounting for shell casings and the like taking up some amount of that weight, you can work out just what kind of amount we're dealing with here. As for the bravely running away North Carolina... there's really nothing left to add. Incredibly silly to see.
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Jan 6, 2022 03:08
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Shameful display by the North Carolina, I agree with what overs have voiced (having the fleeing ship lose by default and using points if both beat each other too bad to win or flee), that seems like a fair way to adjudicate things. For the next fight, is Minas Geraes going to be the WW2 refit version (oil engines and some fire control), its going to need as much love as it can get to have a lick of a shot against the Yamato, also holy poo poo the Yamato fully loaded displaces more tonnage than all three Minas Geraes would have fully loaded! (if all 3 had been built)  In all honesty for a funny exhibition after the main showdown you could have Yamato square off against all three to see how it would do since historically it was literally built to fight multiple battleships at once.
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Jan 6, 2022 03:31
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Out of curiosity- what happens if a torpedo hits a fish? Or a whale? Has it ever happened?
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Jan 6, 2022 03:32
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Jimmy4400nav posted:Shameful display by the North Carolina, I agree with what overs have voiced (having the fleeing ship lose by default and using points if both beat each other too bad to win or flee), that seems like a fair way to adjudicate things. Come to think of it, I wouldn't know whether to laugh or to cry if Yamato also ends up taking the coward's path against Minas Geraes. I mean, I know bewbies has said he'll directly intervene if that happens again but still.
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Jan 6, 2022 03:37
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SIGSEGV posted:Imagine a decuple torpedo launcher arranged in a double decker fashion. It's not quite decuple, but  This screenshot is from Waves of Steel, my indie love letter to the Naval Ops / Steel Roar games. With Bewbie's permission, I'm planning to do a few exhibition matches once we get to later rounds. Waves of Steel has a decidedly less realistic naval sim at its core  Tree Bucket posted:Out of curiosity- what happens if a torpedo hits a fish? Or a whale? Has it ever happened? Early torpedoes were unreliable enough that it'd be hard to know if a torpedo failed because it hit something or because it just spontaneously screwed up. My inclination is to say that for anything smaller than a large shark or whale, an impact-fuzed torpedo would just deflect off without exploding. But if you had a dead-on collision against a large marine animal, then you might be able to trigger the fuze. Later torpedoes have magnetic fuzes, which wouldn't care about wildlife.
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Jan 6, 2022 03:46
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This pleases me. Tree Bucket posted:Out of curiosity- what happens if a torpedo hits a fish? Or a whale? Has it ever happened? Fish aren't going to matter for the detonator, they are too light and too squishy for the impact to generate the sort of energy the detonator is set for, whales could set it off, I suppose, even if they are squishy. Also in case of an actual war these days, whales are going to enjoy being tagged as GOBLIN POSSUB on some display and get exploded by modern torpedoes that probably set themselves of with a complex program that goes "I'm at target position but 10 metres deeper, let's do some very bad things to this boat or submarine."
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Jan 6, 2022 03:52
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SIGSEGV posted:Fish aren't going to matter for the detonator, they are too light and too squishy for the impact to generate the sort of energy the detonator is set for, whales could set it off, I suppose, even if they are squishy. Also in case of an actual war these days, whales are going to enjoy being tagged as GOBLIN POSSUB on some display and get exploded by modern torpedoes that probably set themselves of with a complex program that goes "I'm at target position but 10 metres deeper, let's do some very bad things to this boat or submarine." The whales will already all be dead because they'll beach themselves when we flood the ocean with sonar.
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Jan 6, 2022 03:58
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Not if we burst their eardrums so completely that they are too disorientated to find the coasts.
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Jan 6, 2022 04:01
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Modern sonar can pretty easily distinguish whales from real targets.
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Jan 6, 2022 06:44
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And also modern whale tracking methods can fairly easily discern the tonnage of things moving around by the size of their underwater wakes, but who's to say the other guy hasn't put a nice new coating on his nice new submarine? Who's going to take that chance?
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Jan 6, 2022 06:47
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I choose to believe North Carolina's XO shot the captain for his cowardice and led her to that glorious end. That squeeze between dodge was a thing of beauty. God drat Torpedo Itano Circus in this thread.
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Jan 6, 2022 07:39
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how is ramming simulated? and what might have happened irl if touareg had rammed nc?
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Jan 6, 2022 09:00
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ChubbyChecker posted:and what might have happened irl if touareg had rammed nc? Touareg hosed, NC suffering some serious flooding basically. See Glowworm vs Hipper. Magni fucked around with this message at 12:05 on Jan 6, 2022 |
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Jan 6, 2022 11:16
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ChubbyChecker posted:how is ramming simulated? From what I've seen in-game, it'll depend on the weight and speed of each participant and, I believe, armor quality. The ship hitting dead on might have the bow crumple, then check for gashes or cut into the hull leading to flooding. The game calculates it all in ticks, and I haven't seen it go critical immediately in the sense that I don't think its possible to cut a ship in half, or even just shave off a chunk of the model. Theres also no damage if both ships are friendly, which should honestly be changed asap
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Jan 6, 2022 12:36
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Lord Koth posted:Something like this: Liberty Ship USS John Burke was likely carrying MILLIONS of pounds of explosives - potentially up to 20 million pounds, though likely notably less than that for various reasons. Still, even accounting for shell casings and the like taking up some amount of that weight, you can work out just what kind of amount we're dealing with here. drat, that is some footage. 70 men gone in a flash.
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Jan 6, 2022 12:40
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Matchup #9: Yamato (1941, #2 seed) vs Minas Geraes (1910, #31 seed) Yamato  Belt Armor: 16 inches Deck Armor: 9inches Main Battery: 9x18.1 inch guns Speed: 27 kts Yamato will (probably) forever be mankind’s largest surface combatant. She had the biggest guns and thickest armor ever put to sea, and was designed as the centerpiece of Japan’s Tsushima 2.0 battleplan. Then and now, she’s much more than a ship to the Japanese; she’s something of a spiritual symbol. A generous interpretation is as a symbol of Japan’s will to resist western imperialism and maintain her independence; a less generous interpretation is her as the most famous symbol of a murderous military regime. History is always complicated. Yamato was conceptualized as a ship that could simultaneously duel two American heavies, perhaps the ultimate expression of pre-war Japan’s philosophy of quality over quantity. In reality, the Yamati spent most of the war moored in Truk, unable to go anywhere due to Japan’s chronic fuel shortages and the constant air and submarine threats. Of course, in the end, both ships were YOLO’ed against the overwhelming strength of the late-war USN, and both Yamati would die having never engaged another battleship. I think it can be argued that they did as much as any ship to bring down the Japanese Empire; truly a tragic outcome for such an amazing machine. Yamato might be the biggest kid on the block, but she does have flaws. Her armor is immense, but its layout is inefficient and the steel quality varies quite a bit. Her guns are massive, but she lacks radar fire control and the gun performance isn’t as overwhelming as their size suggests. She’s got a ton of power, but is still on the slow side for her era. She’ll be utterly overwhelming in close combat, but she can be beaten. Probably. One minor tragedy is very few pictures of either Yamati exist today, so instead I posted the incredible 1/10 scale model of her from some museum in Japan. That thing has to be one of the most impressive scale models ever built. Minas Geraes  Belt Armor: 9 inches Deck Armor: 2 inches Main Battery: 12x12 inch guns Speed: 21 knots Minas Geraes started the South American dreadnought race, and for a very brief period, may have been the most powerful ship on the planet. Her career was marked by mutinies and crushing rebels, with next to no actual proper naval combat. She was refitted during WWII, but was too old to actually do anything so she just sat there. Truly, the archetype of the South American dreadnought. She really was pretty fierce for a pre-WWI ship, with a very heavy broadside for the era and passable armor. Her 1940s modernization gives her better fire control, but the guns are still grossly underpowered against later armor and her own armor is still quite thin. Maybe if she had some torpedoes... The Battle (note: used Germany as stand-in for Brazil)  The difference in size, lol. So, as we discussed earlier in the thread, I thought I’d run through an experiment and just see what happened if Minas Geraes were allowed to beat on Yamato at will from point blank range. So, what you’re about to see is an engagement starting at 3000m, with Yamato’s guns on safe, just making a slow turn to port at about 5 kts. Minas can fire at will. After this, I’ll run a proper fight.  That…is very close.  Battleship Yamato, reporting for her beating.  Minas doesn’t miss at this range.  Yamato, in her natural environment.  Minas is completely unable to penetrate Yamato’s belt, but she can put holes around the belt. This she does, starting some fires.  The vast majority of Minas’ shots wind up just like this: splashing against Yamato’s belt armor.  Its like the surface of the moon or something.  Finally some serious damage: rudder degraded and flooding in the stern, along with a fire.  At this point, Yamato has been hit around 320 times. She’s suffered significant topside damage and minor internal damage, but all of her main systems are still functional, if somewhat degraded.  This is what one would call “close range.”  Minas continues to literally just circle Yamato pumping fire into her, but there’s really not much else she can do. Her rounds can’t get to Yamato’s vitals. There’s been a couple of minor turret and belt penetrations that might’ve led to a flash fire, but Yamato stays hard.  Minas’ last salvo. This turned into a bit of a race – Yamato is an absolute wreck at this point. Her engines are gone, her towers are gone, her turrets and fire control are all degraded, but she’s holding together. All told, Minas hit her with 1049 12 inch rounds. Yamato was reduced to around 10% of her structural strength and had some severe flooding, but she survives.  While watching this, I decided that if Yamato survived all of Minas’ magazine, that I’d turn her guns on and see what happens. I flip the switch, and those massive turrets start turning to train on the tiny Brazilian dreadnought.  The first salvo from Yamato’s rear turret destroys Minas’ engines, causes massive flooding, and kills over 100 sailors.  The second salvo is worse. This is from Yamato’s #2 turret.  And the blast from #1 turret finishes the job.  Total hits: Minas: 1049 Yamato: 9 I think honestly Yamato was a bit lucky that she didn't suffer a flash fire from ANY of the 1000+ rounds she endured. Minas might've done better putting HE rounds into Yamato's uppers and hoping the fire does the work, instead of AP rounds into her belt, but I don't think the AI can do that as yet. Either way, Yamato's protection is pretty goddamn impressive. Unless we REALLY want to see Yamato do the same thing at longer range, I'm happy to just call this a win for Yamato and move on to the next fight.
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Jan 6, 2022 17:11
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I’m happy with this, we can just move on.
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Jan 6, 2022 17:24
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Oh my god, that was just brutal. I dunno if we need to see it happen again.
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Jan 6, 2022 17:25
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There's no reason to play that one back. Yamato was humiliating that poor ship without even firing a shot.
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Jan 6, 2022 17:31
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you can definitely force HE ammunition selection but switching to AI control may override that, and I'm not sure if the gun shooting AI is capable of making targeting decisions. I've been successful burning down things I can't penetrate.
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Jan 6, 2022 17:32
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Yeah, let's just move on. One execution is enough. The Yamatos having or not having radar fire control is actually something of a controversy. Surviving documentation on the class is very much incomplete and the IJN at the time ran a very thorough and quite successful disinformation campaign that further muddies the waters to this day. The general wisdom has long been that they didn't have any radar-direction ability, but newer research has been contradicting this. The chief example afaik is Robert Lundgren's book on the Battle off Samar released in 2014. Lundgren's analysis of the battle shows that at one point Yamato aquired and accurately engaged one of the american CVEs (USS Gambier Bay IIRC) through a smokescreen using radar-only fire control for several minutes until the smoke dissipated enough for her to gain visual contact (and realise that the "cruiser" they were firing on was actually a carrier.) Magni fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jan 6, 2022 |
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Jan 6, 2022 17:34
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Didn’t archeology in the wreck of the Gambier Bay confirm she got hit by an 18 inch shell? It wouldn’t prove radar fire control but would prove she actually hit something with her main battery once. I wonder if looking at Yamato’s wreck could answer the fire control question.
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Jan 6, 2022 18:00
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"Yamati" bewbies posted:but Yamato stays hard Wouldn't you in this situation!? 
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Jan 6, 2022 18:17
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kommy5 posted:Didn’t archeology in the wreck of the Gambier Bay confirm she got hit by an 18 inch shell? It wouldn’t prove radar fire control but would prove she actually hit something with her main battery once. I wonder if looking at Yamato’s wreck could answer the fire control question. Yes, IIRC from one of the salvoes fired in that exact situation, shortly after the smoke dissipated. The shell sideswiped Gambier Bay at a shallow angle, blew out several of her boilers and tore a sizeable gash in her hull side. What stands out in that engagement is that Yamato's fire straddled Gambier Bay on the first salvo already, before she got an actual visual on her target. Lundgren's research also shows that Yamato scored several hits against Johnston and Hoel that were attributed to Kongo but couldn't actually have been from the latter due to the way the ships were positioned at those times. Samar was kind of a confused shitshow on all sides and everyone misidentified each other and/or misatributed incoming fire to the wrong ship continously through it. Lundgren went through all the surviving records from both sides bit by bit to try and get a complete picture and resolve the numerous contradictions present. Overall, his verdict is that Yamato showed world-class fire control and was pretty much the single most effective IJN ship present at the battle. (And that she's got a pretty decent claim of having landed the longest-ranged damaging hit in history, with one of her shells fired at the start of the battle detonating under the keel of USS White Plains.)
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Jan 6, 2022 18:22
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kommy5 posted:Didn’t archeology in the wreck of the Gambier Bay confirm she got hit by an 18 inch shell? It wouldn’t prove radar fire control but would prove she actually hit something with her main battery once. I wonder if looking at Yamato’s wreck could answer the fire control question. Yeah that might be difficult. Yamato suffered a ammunition explosion while sinking and is pretty much pieces scattered over the ocean bottom
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Jan 6, 2022 18:22
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Play the fight!
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Jan 6, 2022 18:30
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Give Minas Geraes the best possible 12" guns and let her beat up a NC with guns disabled instead.
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Jan 6, 2022 18:34
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Saint Celestine posted:Yeah that might be difficult. Yamato suffered a ammunition explosion while sinking and is pretty much pieces scattered over the ocean bottom Pictured: something that is not going to be raised and turned into a spaceship 
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Jan 6, 2022 18:35
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Hmm... On that note, I wonder how much Musashi's wreck has been explored since she was discovered 7 years ago...
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Jan 6, 2022 18:44
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FuturePastNow posted:Pictured: something that is not going to be raised and turned into a spaceship Not with THAT attitude!
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Jan 6, 2022 18:55
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FuturePastNow posted:Pictured: something that is not going to be raised and turned into a spaceship Sure you could! Salvage the nameplate or something, slap it on, build the rest of the ship around it, and call it a great rebuild!
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Jan 6, 2022 19:01
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FuturePastNow posted:Pictured: something that is not going to be raised and turned into a spaceship If anything, it's now perfectly situated to be built into two space battleships that can combine together to make one complete Super Space Battleship Yamato. 
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Jan 6, 2022 19:04
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See that Yamato battle there was a thing of beauty, something any fan of ships and grog would appreciate.
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Jan 6, 2022 19:30
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Magni posted:The Yamatos having or not having radar fire control is actually something of a controversy. This is interesting and something I did not know. To the brain trust: would it be fair to slap a lower-grade fire control radar on Yamato? It honestly probably won't make a HUGE difference in most cases as her optics are excellent and can get to very nearly the max range of her guns, but it might make life at the very edge of her gun range a little more dangerous.
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Jan 6, 2022 19:56
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What a terrifying curb stomp. I think that poor Dreadnaught is dead enough.
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Jan 6, 2022 19:58
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Out of curiosity, could any of Yamato's contemporaries have withstood that kind of close-quarter beating from a pre-WWI battleship or was she uniquely capable because of her armor.
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Jan 6, 2022 20:06
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I laughed aloud when I read that the Yamato's deck armor is as thick as Minas Geraes' belt armor.
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Jan 6, 2022 20:06
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I honestly wouldn't mind seeing the straight fight, just to see how much elan the Brazilian can squeak out before exploding
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Jan 6, 2022 20:17
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bewbies posted:This is interesting and something I did not know. To the brain trust: would it be fair to slap a lower-grade fire control radar on Yamato? I'd say there's plenty of circumstantial evidence to justify her receiving the first radar fire control tech, and if nothing else it should make the fight against whichever US BB wins on the left a bit more interesting, since they are likely to try and hold the range open and Yamato isn't that fast.
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Jan 6, 2022 20:23
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